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I think that was done b/c they abandoned the plan to get her out of the house...so,in order to give at least JR a chance to high tail it out of town,the staged sexual assault was hidden.They knew it would be found upon autopsy,and hoped it could still be considered,along with the garrotte staging,to not be done by a parent.

JMO8778,

So after sexually assaulting JonBenet they decided it was not to be so wiped her down, changed her underwear, and wrapped her in those white blankets.

So before they killed JonBenet they had already planned a staging scenario which included her sexual assault, is that not premeditation?

.
 
JMO8778,

So after sexually assaulting JonBenet they decided it was not to be so wiped her down, changed her underwear, and wrapped her in those white blankets.

So before they killed JonBenet they had already planned a staging scenario which included her sexual assault, is that not premeditation?

.

Before they killed JonBenet, they already believed she was dead.:razz:

I couldn't help it. The tears are rolling down my face. I promise I meant no offense. I think I need a vacation.
 
Lets say they did intend to leave first and take JonBenet and they changed their mind for whatever reason (probably because it would have been much too dangeous - they would have been seen by someone). If anyone would be thinking that way, it would have been Patsy since she wrote the note, but possibly it was negated by John who realized how absurd that would be.

But lets say that is true, just the fact that they leave the ransom note to read that way,tells me they are out of it - that no one is dealing with a full deck that night in that house. Insanity rules. And when they do put her in that back room, John is able to collect himself and deal with the police - at least he has a course of action and he has called everyone he knows to help him and keep him from the police's clutches even in his own house.

Just thinking about it gives me the willies, Burke said he heard creaking and noises. What he heard was John and Patsy walking around and talking - can you picture how insane it was.

O my yes..total insanity.Totally.Right on.
 
Lets say they did intend to leave first and take JonBenet and they changed their mind for whatever reason (probably because it would have been much too dangeous - they would have been seen by someone). If anyone would be thinking that way, it would have been Patsy since she wrote the note, but possibly it was negated by John who realized how absurd that would be.

But lets say that is true, just the fact that they leave the ransom note to read that way,tells me they are out of it - that no one is dealing with a full deck that night in that house.

I have to wonder if they ran out of time to rewrite another one.And or they had already spent some time getting rid of the prior practice pages,and didn't have any more time left to dispose of more.The 911 call did come in rather late in accordance with their plans.No way would they have had time to get ready,get to the airport,etc,within the time frame they gave themselves.Something else was going on,and there was no time left to write a new note,so that one had to stand.
 
JMO8778,

So after sexually assaulting JonBenet they decided it was not to be so wiped her down, changed her underwear, and wrapped her in those white blankets.

I think the wound bled more than they anticipated,so her underwear was removed and she was wiped down.It HAD to appear to be the same evening, so they were replaced with the larger Wed. underwear..nevermind it was too big..the fact it said WED. on them was more important to the stager.
Maybe since the plan to get her out of the house was abandoned,they were totally trying to hide her sexual assault by cleaning her, redressing her and covering her? That makes sense to me.
Then the garrotte was applied,and 911 was called,so as to have a 'reason' as to why she was killed..ie-authorities were alerted,so JB was 'beheaded',in a sense.I think JR high tailed it to the basement and messed with the window in hopes it would appear her body was brought back at some point that morning,since it wasn't found upon LE arriving and searching the house.

So before they killed JonBenet they had already planned a staging scenario which included her sexual assault, is that not premeditation?

.

No,IA with Solace,it wasn't planned,JB was thought to be dead when it was inflicted.
 
Before they killed JonBenet, they already believed she was dead.:razz:

I couldn't help it. The tears are rolling down my face. I promise I meant no offense. I think I need a vacation.

indeed,it's a tough case.
 
But there is no head blow to direct attention from, it was not discovered until the internal autopsy. The head blow may have come last, Coroner Meyer does not cite it as the major causal factor in the death of JonBenet, asphyxiation is accorded that relevance.
But they knew such an injury would be detected at the autopsy, don't you think so?
Dr. Meyer lists as the COD asphyxiaton 'associated with' craniocerebral trauma. 'Associated with' implies that both injuries were equally relevant, therefore Dr.Meyer could as well have listed the craniocerebral trauma first.
JR knew because there was no intruder that with a corpse in the basement his reputation would take a hit regardless of what the law enforcement thought, he knew the press would run the daughter dead count.
I think John saw turning Patsy in to the police as the bigger scandal than possible rumors about his relationship with JonBenet.

No way was Lou Smit hoodwinked, he knew what he was dealing with and when he took his evidence with him, he knew his pension was safe.
I do think think Lou Smit was actually convinced of the Ramseys' innocence. What leads you to believe otherwise?
So who do you reckon was sexually molesting JonBenet?
Too bad we only have the Bonita papers with Dr. McCann's report as a secondary source. Not all the medical experts agreed on it being chronic sexual abuse.
If she was abused at all, John Ramsey is the most likely suspect imo.
Maybe also Patsy's father. Do you know if he was present on the day when the police was called several times on the phone? When exactly was that?
 
But they knew such an injury would be detected at the autopsy, don't you think so?
Dr. Meyer lists as the COD asphyxiaton 'associated with' craniocerebral trauma. 'Associated with' implies that both injuries were equally relevant, therefore Dr.Meyer could as well have listed the craniocerebral trauma first.

I think John saw turning Patsy in to the police as the bigger scandal than possible rumors about his relationship with JonBenet.


I do think think Lou Smit was actually convinced of the Ramseys' innocence. What leads you to believe otherwise?

Too bad we only have the Bonita papers with Dr. McCann's report as a secondary source. Not all the medical experts agreed on it being chronic sexual abuse.
If she was abused at all, John Ramsey is the most likely suspect imo.
Maybe also Patsy's father. Do you know if he was present on the day when the police was called several times on the phone? When exactly was that?

what about JAR as well? the blanket,the Dr Seuss book in the suitcase...
 
Did JAR see JonBenet often? Was he present at the Dec 23 Christmas party?

I don't think I've ever read much on how often he was there,as far as the party,it was said no,he wasn't there.Some think otherwise though,from what I've seen on various brds.
 
I thought he slept in her room when he visited. Don't quote me. Just thought I did read that.

he had his own room next door.but Thomas did says others had slept in her room,maybe that's what you read.
 
But they knew such an injury would be detected at the autopsy, don't you think so?
Dr. Meyer lists as the COD asphyxiaton 'associated with' craniocerebral trauma. 'Associated with' implies that both injuries were equally relevant, therefore Dr.Meyer could as well have listed the craniocerebral trauma first.

I think John saw turning Patsy in to the police as the bigger scandal than possible rumors about his relationship with JonBenet.


I do think think Lou Smit was actually convinced of the Ramseys' innocence. What leads you to believe otherwise?

Too bad we only have the Bonita papers with Dr. McCann's report as a secondary source. Not all the medical experts agreed on it being chronic sexual abuse.
If she was abused at all, John Ramsey is the most likely suspect imo.
Maybe also Patsy's father. Do you know if he was present on the day when the police was called several times on the phone? When exactly was that?

rashomon,

rashomon said:
But they knew such an injury would be detected at the autopsy, don't you think so?
Dr. Meyer lists as the COD asphyxiaton 'associated with' craniocerebral trauma. 'Associated with' implies that both injuries were equally relevant, therefore Dr.Meyer could as well have listed the craniocerebral trauma first.
Well whichever injury he givies precedence to, would only come out during a trial. But the cause of death is hypoxia by asphyxiation with the obstruction of the air passage and the skull fracture both contributing factors, with her head injury denying oxygen flow!

rashomon said:
I think John saw turning Patsy in to the police as the bigger scandal than possible rumors about his relationship with JonBenet.
You reckon, so being accused of incest does not bother him.

rashomon said:
I do think think Lou Smit was actually convinced of the Ramseys' innocence. What leads you to believe otherwise?
Because he worked for the Ramseys, he invented a defence for them which had no basis in fact, and he promoted the intruder theory which as an experienced investigator he knew to be rubbish, do not forget he had access to the evidence, we have not, and we can see it is a fantasy defence!

rashomon said:
Too bad we only have the Bonita papers with Dr. McCann's report as a secondary source. Not all the medical experts agreed on it being chronic sexual abuse.
Yes its a distinct possibility that JonBenet was being sexually molested by more than one person, hence the silence!

.
 
I think that the room that JonBenet was found in had no windows - I always thought there were at least three different rooms down in the basement - the room where she was found (John described it as a nasty room, very dank and dark) the train room where Burke played his trains and I thought there was another room with the window) AND I COULD BE WRONG SO PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM.

I found out that you are right. I was thinking there were no windows in the cellar, but wasn't sure. Here is what doesn't make sense. I have seen floor plans of the Ramsey's basement, and there are more than three rooms down there. John and Patsy both, have said that it was a mess, with things thrown down there...it was an obstacle course. Especially for an intruder that was trying to dodge all of the obstacles in the dark. If an intruder did it, which he didn't, but if he did...why in the world did he bring the flashlight back up to the kitchen, and take the time to wipe off prints, and then go BACK down into the cellar...in the dark...and climb back out from the window that he came in from? He could have simply taken the flashlight with him. Even if he had of used the front door...he would have still had to have been able to see...to FIND the door, and then outside. I can't figure out either, how the intruder supposedly, in the dark, knew that the cellar door had a latch on it, and then found it in the dark and latched it after leaving JB's body in there. Not only would an intruder NOT do that...latch a door...what was the purpose...but, he wouldn't have known it was there....IT WAS DARK.
 
I found out that you are right. I was thinking there were no windows in the cellar, but wasn't sure. Here is what doesn't make sense. I have seen floor plans of the Ramsey's basement, and there are more than three rooms down there. John and Patsy both, have said that it was a mess, with things thrown down there...it was an obstacle course. Especially for an intruder that was trying to dodge all of the obstacles in the dark. If an intruder did it, which he didn't, but if he did...why in the world did he bring the flashlight back up to the kitchen, and take the time to wipe off prints, and then go BACK down into the cellar...in the dark...and climb back out from the window that he came in from? He could have simply taken the flashlight with him. Even if he had of used the front door...he would have still had to have been able to see...to FIND the door, and then outside. I can't figure out either, how the intruder supposedly, in the dark, knew that the cellar door had a latch on it, and then found it in the dark and latched it after leaving JB's body in there. Not only would an intruder NOT do that...latch a door...what was the purpose...but, he wouldn't have known it was there....IT WAS DARK.

We are talking about no ordinary intruder. I mean this intruder doesn't even exist and he still pulled it off.
 
We are talking about no ordinary intruder. I mean this intruder doesn't even exist and he still pulled it off.

I don't know why I didn't think about that flashlight earlier. RED FLAG...the intruder didn't take it with him, instead he wiped off the prints, placed it on the kitchen counter...and stumbled around in the dark, trying to get out of the house. I haven't ran into a poster in a long time, that still believes IDI theory....but, I am sure that there are still some out there. My question is WHY with all of these inconsistancies, lies and red flags....is there ANYBODY out there left, that still believes that a intruder did it. And it makes me sick, that the Ramsey's weren't arrested ON THE SPOT.
 
Not many people left that are IDI, I think. There just wasn't time for an intruder to do all that was done that night. But a lot of people go back and forth among the short list of surviving Rs. Including JAR. Maybe Grandpa, too.
Of course, the killer(s) wouldn't have been bungling around in the dark down in the basement...they knew where all the light switches were. I've never read that anyone noticed lights on in the basement. Though the wineceller had no windows, the other rooms did. I've read neighbors mentioning lights left off that ususally were on, and the "weird" moving lights a neighbor saw in the R kitchen. Obviously the flashlight, as the killers moved about the kitchen. I once though maybe it was JBR and BR sneaking down to the kitchen for that infamous pineapple snack (we really don't know whether BR had eaten any pineapple also, do we?) But those 2 kids would not have wiped the flashlight AND BATTERIES down to remove their fingerprints. So that theory is out in my mind, at least. No, that was the Rs moving about AFTER the murder, writing the note, planning their coverup. BR admits to being awake, hearing voices. If his parents had discovered his sister dead in the house, he would have heard more than hushed voices! He'd have heard anquished screaming! And his parents would have rushed in to be sure HE was safe. After all, if this was a legimate intruder murder, how could a parent be sure their OTHER child wasn't lying dead somewhere in the house, even if the note only mentioned their daughter.
 
Not many people left that are IDI, I think. There just wasn't time for an intruder to do all that was done that night. But a lot of people go back and forth among the short list of surviving Rs. Including JAR. Maybe Grandpa, too.
Of course, the killer(s) wouldn't have been bungling around in the dark down in the basement...they knew where all the light switches were. I've never read that anyone noticed lights on in the basement. Though the wineceller had no windows, the other rooms did. I've read neighbors mentioning lights left off that ususally were on, and the "weird" moving lights a neighbor saw in the R kitchen. Obviously the flashlight, as the killers moved about the kitchen. I once though maybe it was JBR and BR sneaking down to the kitchen for that infamous pineapple snack (we really don't know whether BR had eaten any pineapple also, do we?) But those 2 kids would not have wiped the flashlight AND BATTERIES down to remove their fingerprints. So that theory is out in my mind, at least. No, that was the Rs moving about AFTER the murder, writing the note, planning their coverup. BR admits to being awake, hearing voices. If his parents had discovered his sister dead in the house, he would have heard more than hushed voices! He'd have heard anquished screaming! And his parents would have rushed in to be sure HE was safe. After all, if this was a legimate intruder murder, how could a parent be sure their OTHER child wasn't lying dead somewhere in the house, even if the note only mentioned their daughter.

What if the Ramsey's used the flashlight, which we KNOW they DID...and then replaced it on the counter...just in case, one of the neighbors were to say that they saw lights coming from the kitchen...which they did. Maybe they said...well, we will leave this flashlight out, and wipe off the prints..to make it look like an intruder did it. Because we ALL know that there wasn't an intruder, and the flashlight was used by the Ramseys...why would they have a reason to remove their own fingerprints, if they were the owners of the flashlight. They did it to make it look like the intruder left it there. When in fact, if there really had been an intruder, he wouldn't have taken the time to wipe the flashlight down, including the batteries, and leave it on the kitchen counter...he would have just taken the darn thing with him. He would have had to have it to see ANYWAY. Also, what did the supposed intruder use to break INTO the house with?? It supposedly was dark, so he had to have had a flashlight to see where the window was, that he was going to climb through. Why would he NOT bring his own, knowing that he would need one...and then use the Ramsey's inside the home...wipe it clean, and replace it...instead of using it to see to leave in the dark. That just makes no sense...

And I agree with you...when they found out that JB was missing (not to mention murdered)....they really would have went into Burke's room, to check on him...and be screaming frantically....and saying "BURKE, YOUR SISTER HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED!!! DID YOU HEAR OR SEE ANYTHING SON??? YOU HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THE KIDNAPPER COULD STILL BE IN THE HOUSE, AND MAYBE IN YOUR CLOSET, OR UNDER YOUR BED". They would have been hysterical...waking up Burke, and dragging him out of the bed, so that they could keep him in their sights. BUT NOOOOOO...they chose to just let him sleep. John said in his 1997 interview, that they thought that him sleeping, was the best place for him right then. And that doesn't even make sense to me. The boy had to wake up sometime, and be told about JB....he wasn't going to sleep FOREVER.
 
Several people on this thread have suggested that there's no way JR would have staged JBR's body like a sex crime, as the father would be the natural suspect in such a case.

However, as I've discussed before, the evidence strongly suggests that the vaginal wound was inflicted BEFORE JBR actually died--possibly after the head blow, and before the strangulation.

So, if PR is the killer, and if this is the 'rage attack' so many assume it to be, then the following things happen:

PR causes the head wound, either violently striking JBR over the head with the flashlight, or slamming the little girl as hard as she can against some hard surface in the bathroom.

She then examines her apparently lifeless daughter and believes her to be dead.

Now, she carries JBR to the basement, removes her long johns and underwear, inflicts the wound, wipes up the blood, replaces the underwear with the size-12 pair, replaces the long johns, fashions the garrote, and then strangles JBR with it, not realizing she's actually killing JBR at that moment.

(Or, possibly, the business with the wound and the redressing comes before the removal of JBR to the basement; sequence is nearly impossible to determine.)

Fibers from JR's clothing are found on JBR's body, in the area that has been wiped up.

What does all of this mean? Does PR not see that JR will be a natural suspect in the death of JBR, particularly given the sexual wound? Does PR not further see that using JR's clothing to clean JBR will throw immediate and terrible suspicion on him? Moreover, what possible reason could there be to inflict a sex wound and then attempt to cover up that wound?

In my opinion, there are only three possible ways of accounting for all of this if either parent is involved at all:

One, PR did all of these things on purpose to throw suspicion on JR. Which then makes it very difficult to explain why JR would work so hard to keep her out of jail; he's a smart man, and would have many questions about how his shirt fibers ended up in such a sensitive area of JBR's body.

Two, PR did all of these things on purpose to hide evidence of sexual abuse being committed by someone other than JR. This would explain her willingness to inflict a sexual wound, clean it up to further 'muddy' evidence, and even to be careless about JR's clothing fibers. Unfortunately, this requires a level of self-possession and cunning on the part of someone who has just accidentally killed her own daughter that is hard to accept as reality; it also requires a level of altruism, because even a lecherous family member would be a better suspect than PR herself, right?

Three, JR inflicted the sexual wound, but then hid it, because in this instance the wound is not intended to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, but only to compromise evidence of prior sexual abuse and to create confusion about whether such abuse even happened. IF that was ever his intent, you must admit that it succeeded admirably.

So, there might be a motive for a father to inflict a sexual wound on a child--if he had been abusing her prior to her death.

But because of the timing--wound inflicted before death occurred--whoever inflicted that wound MUST be the person who killed JBR.

To me, that wound is the single most important feature of the case. Create a plausible scenario that would have PR inflicting that wound before she even 'finishes the job' so to speak, and you will convince me that she's the killer.

Otherwise, all the speculation about PR being tired, drinking, taking medication, being up too late, being frustrated with the bedwetting, planning to give a recalcitrant child a dye job at midnight, or even douching a six-year-old, interesting though these speculations might be, do not and can not explain the urgent need to inflict a penetrating wound to the vagina of a child who is not yet dead (even if the killer believes she is)--and then take measures fairly quickly before or after the strangulation to clean up the evidence of this wound!!
 
She then examines her apparently lifeless daughter and believes her to be dead.
I'm not sure there is supporting evidence for the idea that Patsy thought JonBenet was dead after the head injury was inflicted. Based on the severity of the head injury in conjunction with JonBenet's abrasions and contusions in conjunction with the sex assault, it appears to me to be a sequence of child abuse culminating in murder. Patsy may have intentionally placed the ligature around JonBenet's neck, tying it off relatively tightly, for the purpose of suffocating a still living, but unconscious JonBenet. The broken paint brush handle may have been added some time after that for effect as part of the staging.
 

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