Forensic evidence

[Ames]

I am not so sure about that. I understand there were pictures of her found in the basement and that could be innocent. She had her picture taken all the time. He could have been fishing and lying at the same time to see her reaction to the question. No?

Yeah, I thought that they just found some pictures of her there...not that the pictures were TAKEN there.

 

[Solace]

Could be,but then Patsy denies all knowledge of anything,(like she does w / most items in the house related to the investigation),and saying that seems out of place.Why not just say,'could be,we do take a lot of pics of her,maybe some made their way to the basement,since we use if for storage'.She's in denial mode again,which I see as a red flag.Plus,she didn't ask about what was found,how JB was posing,and most importantly..what was she wearing? Was it the same clothes she went to bed in the night of the murder?

She was told not to ask anything and to keep her answers very short.

 

[UKGuy]

right,I believe so;I've always thought they had a more specific reason to do a search for child *advertiser censored*,other than what was found upon autopsy.

JMO8778,

There is no doubt about it, there are two possibilities:

A collection of photographs with JonBenet as the subject was discovered in the basement, and one or more of these photographs were taken in the laundry room.

The object of the questioning is to lock Patsy into her version and elicit whether she took those photographs, if not was it John?

Notice Patsy does not ask if JonBenet is dressed in those photographs, these may be pageant themed photographes taken in the house or JonBenet posing shall we say innapropriately for someone down in the laundry room, the fact search warrants were issued for child *advertiser censored* indicates what the nature of those photographs were e.g. if they had only been typical domestic pictures why the search warrants with the results redacted?


.

 

[Solace]

JMO8778,

There is no doubt about it, there are two possibilities:

A collection of photographs with JonBenet as the subject was discovered in the basement, and one or more of these photographs were taken in the laundry room.

The object of the questioning is to lock Patsy into her version and elicit whether she took those photographs, if not was it John?

Notice Patsy does not ask if JonBenet is dressed in those photographs, these may be pageant themed photographes taken in the house or JonBenet posing shall we say innapropriately for someone down in the laundry room, the fact search warrants were issued for child *advertiser censored* indicates what the nature of those photographs were e.g. if they had only been typical domestic pictures why the search warrants with the results redacted?


.

If they had pornographic pictures of JonBenet in the Ramseys basement, that would have given Alex Hunter everything to go on as far as prosecuting this case. You are guessing that these are pornographic pictures and a guess is as good as nothing. Alex Hunter believed she was guilty, Patsy, that is and wanted some ironclad proof - and if they had these pictures, he would have had that.

The fact that they had a warrant for pornographic pictures says nothing - she was sexually assaulted in her house - why would they not ask for a warrant for anything and everything.

Lets deal in reality and not what you hope it is. It is such a waste of thread. Sorry but it is.

 

[JMO8778]

Yeah, I thought that they just found some pictures of her there...not that the pictures were TAKEN there.

Is there anywhere else I can read about it further,do you know?This is all I've been able to find on the photo's in the basement.

 

[JMO8778]

She was told not to ask anything and to keep her answers very short.

same as with finding out JB had been violated,why didn't she act surprised?she should have wanted to know more,told to ask or not.I know I would have.
I do think Patsy inflicted the head wound,but I question if it was from toilet rage,since it doesn't look like she made it to bed.I would think a more personal reason would make her angry enough to inflict a mortal head wound.Like the 'Snow White' syndrome SD mentioned.

 

[JMO8778]

If they had pornographic pictures of JonBenet in the Ramseys basement, that would have given Alex Hunter everything to go on as far as prosecuting this case. You are guessing that these are pornographic pictures and a guess is as good as nothing. Alex Hunter believed she was guilty, Patsy, that is and wanted some ironclad proof - and if they had these pictures, he would have had that.

The fact that they had a warrant for pornographic pictures says nothing - she was sexually assaulted in her house - why would they not ask for a warrant for anything and everything.

Lets deal in reality and not what you hope it is. It is such a waste of thread. Sorry but it is.

no one said they were *advertiser censored*,just that they were taken in the basement.Even so,it's odd,IMO.

 

[Solace]

no one said they were *advertiser censored*,just that they were taken in the basement.Even so,it's odd,IMO.

No, UK says *advertiser censored*:

"Notice Patsy does not ask if JonBenet is dressed in those photographs, these may be pageant themed photographes taken in the house or JonBenet posing shall we say innapropriately for someone down in the laundry room, the fact search warrants were issued for child *advertiser censored* indicates what the nature of those photographs were e.g. if they had only been typical domestic pictures why the search warrants with the results redacted?"

And I disagree with UK. You can't automatically assume the pictures were pornographic. UK has never even seen them. I do not believe anyone has. So to assume they are *advertiser censored* is beyond the pale once again.

A child was found sexually assaulted in the basement. I would expect the warrants to include anything and everything. It does not mean *advertiser censored* was found. I thought we were dealing in facts, not supposition.

 

[Solace]

That's just weird. Most people consider the background when taking pictures of their kid, because they want the pictures to look nice for display or giving to relatives.

If it's obvious that these pictures were taken in the laundry room, then the laundry room must be in the background behind JonBenet. Why would anyone want to take pictures of their child in the laundry room? I could see it if she was doing something really cute, like if she just learned how to blow a bubble with bubble gum, but why would they already have a camera in the laundry room, and why wouldn't they step somewhere where there's something less laundry-ish in the background?

I don't think it is obvious NP. Trip is not saying there is or there is not. He is posing a question to her. He could absolutely be making it up.

As I understand it, there were photos of JonBenet found down in the basement. It is a dumping ground for lack of a better word. She is an extremely photographed child; I can see extra photos going to the basement. I don't think that is weird. There is a lot of weird stuff in this case, but I don't think finding photos of JonBenet in the basement is weird. We could make it weird if we wanted, but would that prove anything? I think he is fishing and trying to get a reaction of some sort out of her. Remember that he comes to believe she is innocent and is still working with Smit on that even today, as much as they are working on it and not ruining people's lives by aligning themselves with Tracey. But that is another subject.

 

[JMO8778]

No, UK says *advertiser censored*:

"Notice Patsy does not ask if JonBenet is dressed in those photographs, these may be pageant themed photographes taken in the house or JonBenet posing shall we say innapropriately for someone down in the laundry room, the fact search warrants were issued for child *advertiser censored* indicates what the nature of those photographs were e.g. if they had only been typical domestic pictures why the search warrants with the results redacted?"

And I disagree with UK. You can't automatically assume the pictures were pornographic. UK has never even seen them. I do not believe anyone has. So to assume they are *advertiser censored* is beyond the pale once again.

A child was found sexually assaulted in the basement. I would expect the warrants to include anything and everything. It does not mean *advertiser censored* was found. I thought we were dealing in facts, not supposition.

HE says *advertiser censored*,I don't.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't think it is obvious NP. Trip is not saying there is or there is not. He is posing a question to her. He could absolutely be making it up.

As I understand it, there were photos of JonBenet found down in the basement. It is a dumping ground for lack of a better word. She is an extremely photographed child; I can see extra photos going to the basement. I don't think that is weird. There is a lot of weird stuff in this case, but I don't think finding photos of JonBenet in the basement is weird. We could make it weird if we wanted, but would that prove anything? I think he is fishing and trying to get a reaction of some sort out of her. Remember that he comes to believe she is innocent and is still working with Smit on that even today, as much as they are working on it and not ruining people's lives by aligning themselves with Tracey. But that is another subject.

Patsy,but what about JR?what does he say about him?

 

[Solace]

Patsy,but what about JR?what does he say about him?

I thought that Trip is on the Ramsey team all the way, am I wrong?

 

[Solace]

HE says *advertiser censored*,I don't.

I hear ya.

 

[Albert18]

...You can't automatically assume the pictures were pornographic....

And I would add, you can't automatically give any credance to the questions and/or why they were asked.

Where were they going with these questions...

*An intruder was in the house and had grabbed some pictures upstairs and brought them down to the basement?

*An intruder was in the house and in addition to everything else, had a photo shoot in the basement and had the pictures developed before he left? (I bet this is what Trip thought.)

*You shouldn't take pictures of kids in front of washing machines?(Chief Koby)


But if you combine pictures being taken of JB in the basement and the blanket and the book found in the suitcase...now that might be interesting.

 

[DeeDee249]

I remember reading somewhere that there was a scarf either seen in a photograph of the basement laundry area or actually seen by LE in that area. PR gave scarves to their men friends as Christmas gifts that year, but JR also placed a scarf with JBR in her coffin.
I know I mentioned this here before, but there is a website discussing JBR's murder that posts some of her autopsy photos (nothing that hasn't been seen on acandyrose) BUT this person also posts comparative autopsy photos of other people that were strangled various ways: with a garrotte, manually, and one with a scarf. There is a triangular red mark on that person's neck that is identical to the triangular "abrasion" seen on JBR. The caption on that person's photo says that it was caused by the knot on the scarf or the bunching up of the scarf as it was twisted. There is a photo of JBR showing her abrasion right next to it. I don't know how to copy/paste. But you could find the site by googling JonBenet Ramsey autosy photos, in case anyone here knows how to post that link or show those photos here.
I've always felt that she was strangled with the scarf in a sex abuse scenario, and the garrotte was fashioned to make it seem like that is what strangled her. The scarf could be traced to it's owner. Too bad it's buried now. And you can bet no one in LE had access to it to have it tested before that. JR said he had bought the scarf AFTER JBR's death, and that it had special meaning to him and that's why he wanted it buried with her. I bet.

 

[JMO8778]

I remember reading somewhere that there was a scarf either seen in a photograph of the basement laundry area or actually seen by LE in that area. PR gave scarves to their men friends as Christmas gifts that year, but JR also placed a scarf with JBR in her coffin.
I know I mentioned this here before, but there is a website discussing JBR's murder that posts some of her autopsy photos (nothing that hasn't been seen on acandyrose) BUT this person also posts comparative autopsy photos of other people that were strangled various ways: with a garrotte, manually, and one with a scarf. There is a triangular red mark on that person's neck that is identical to the triangular "abrasion" seen on JBR. The caption on that person's photo says that it was caused by the knot on the scarf or the bunching up of the scarf as it was twisted. There is a photo of JBR showing her abrasion right next to it. I don't know how to copy/paste. But you could find the site by googling JonBenet Ramsey autosy photos, in case anyone here knows how to post that link or show those photos here.
I've always felt that she was strangled with the scarf in a sex abuse scenario, and the garrotte was fashioned to make it seem like that is what strangled her. The scarf could be traced to it's owner. Too bad it's buried now. And you can bet no one in LE had access to it to have it tested before that. JR said he had bought the scarf AFTER JBR's death, and that it had special meaning to him and that's why he wanted it buried with her. I bet.

good thoughts,I've wondered that,too.
I also wonder what is blacked out on some of the reports..it seems something else was found near her body,but it was omitted.

 

[JMO8778]

And I would add, you can't automatically give any credance to the questions and/or why they were asked.

Where were they going with these questions...

*An intruder was in the house and had grabbed some pictures upstairs and brought them down to the basement?

*An intruder was in the house and in addition to everything else, had a photo shoot in the basement and had the pictures developed before he left? (I bet this is what Trip thought.)

*You shouldn't take pictures of kids in front of washing machines?(Chief Koby)


But if you combine pictures being taken of JB in the basement and the blanket and the book found in the suitcase...now that might be interesting.

could be,but I'll just have to agree to disagree on the importance of the pics themselves..she was specifically asked about them,and it appears to me they have some relevance,even if they aren't *advertiser censored* pics.
But what would constitute a *advertiser censored* pic for a child anyway,if say,it was just a pic where she wasn't wearing a shirt? But whatever they are,pics being made in the basement doesn't seem on the up and up.Sounds like someone was hiding something more.

 

[DeeDee249]

Depending on who is deciding; there are many things that could be seen as pornographic as far as children go. A 6-year old girl dressed only in a shirt and naked from the waist down could be. Even if she is not posed in a sexual way or engaging in sexual activity. Children in underwear would not be, unless they WERE engaged in sexual activity. There are some cases where 1-Hour Photo shops and the like report people who are developing pics of their naked babies (y'know, the typical stuff like on a blanket, playing in the bath, innocent things that parents might do.

 

[Dru]

I remember reading somewhere that there was a scarf either seen in a photograph of the basement laundry area or actually seen by LE in that area. PR gave scarves to their men friends as Christmas gifts that year, but JR also placed a scarf with JBR in her coffin.
I know I mentioned this here before, but there is a website discussing JBR's murder that posts some of her autopsy photos (nothing that hasn't been seen on acandyrose) BUT this person also posts comparative autopsy photos of other people that were strangled various ways: with a garrotte, manually, and one with a scarf. There is a triangular red mark on that person's neck that is identical to the triangular "abrasion" seen on JBR. The caption on that person's photo says that it was caused by the knot on the scarf or the bunching up of the scarf as it was twisted. There is a photo of JBR showing her abrasion right next to it. I don't know how to copy/paste. But you could find the site by googling JonBenet Ramsey autosy photos, in case anyone here knows how to post that link or show those photos here.
I've always felt that she was strangled with the scarf in a sex abuse scenario, and the garrotte was fashioned to make it seem like that is what strangled her. The scarf could be traced to it's owner. Too bad it's buried now. And you can bet no one in LE had access to it to have it tested before that. JR said he had bought the scarf AFTER JBR's death, and that it had special meaning to him and that's why he wanted it buried with her. I bet.

I think that scarf is a little creepy too. Acandyrose quotes DOI, p. 40, "Then it was John (sic) turn. He had recently purchased a beautiful silk scarf, and he tucked it around JonBenet as if surrounding her with a final blanket of love."

Leaving aside the phrase 'final blanket' and its association with the crime scene, I have to wonder about this scarf.

If JR is 'tucking' the scarf like a blanket, I'm guessing it's not a men's small rectangular scarf, but rather something you'd give a woman, a larger square scarf, which often measure between 30 and 35 inches on each side.

Which raises some questions:
1) How "recently" had JR purchased this scarf? Remember, PR had to have a dept. store send her clothes to wear for the funeral, because they had left the house with nothing--nothing, that is, but the bags and bags of stuff Pam Paugh carted out with the help of the police. Was the scarf one of the items on the list for Pam to get? If so, why?

2) Who was the scarf purchased for? PR? JR's older daughter? Whoever it 'belonged' to, why bury it with JBR? Was there some forensic evidence associated with the scarf that made it a good idea to bury it? (And even to settle the 'stun gun' question the R's wouldn't hear of an exhumation--just another of the many things that make you say "Hmmm.")

3) Was the scarf purchased after the murder, specifically for the funeral? Again, why? If you wanted to bury your daughter with some comforting blanket, why not purchase a blanket? Why an expensive silk scarf? And when was it purchased? After all, PR had to have a dept. store send her clothes to try on--the R's weren't doing a whole lot of shopping in the days immediately following the murder.

My guess is that the scarf was purchased before the murder, and was in the house on the night of the 25th, which makes it all the more strange that JR would choose this item, of all possible items, to bury with his daughter.

 

[UKGuy]

HE says *advertiser censored*,I don't.

JMO8778,

I do not say *advertiser censored* the search warrant explicitly states that child *advertiser censored*, vhs tapes, cine-film, camcorders, photographs etc were to be sought out.

e.g.

January 30, 1997 Search Warrant

TO Detective Jim Byfield, or Agent Charles Davis, or any officer authorized by law to execute search warrants within the County of Boulder, State of Colorado, having this date filed an affidavit for search warrant in conformity with the provisions of Colorado Rules of Criminal Procedure (Rule 41), for the following described property, to-wit:

1. Any data of a SEXUAL NATURE including adult *advertiser censored*, adult nudes, CHILD *advertiser censored*, CHILD NUDES and any related correspondence, electronic mail (e-mail), including letters, notes, memorandum, or other communications in written or oral firm, stored on the computer system described below. These material could be stand alone files attached to or contained within the e-mail, and/or possibly stored in the form of data, files, documents, graphics, or fragments or partially deleted fragments of the same, or other magnetically stored format, stored on floppy disks, hard disk drives, magnetic tapes or other media capable of storing information in either a magnetic or optical form.

2. Any and all graphic images stored in various formats, to include both color and black-and-white, as well as sequential frame and full-motion video. These images would be of a sexual nature including adult *advertiser censored*, adult nudes, CHILD *advertiser censored*, CHILD NUDES. believed to be situated (in or on the items) or (at the place) known as:

Also:

Police reportedly obtained a search warrant for the Ramseys ' vacation home there, but a Michigan judge sealed the warrant at the investigator's request.

Charlevoix County prosecutor Mary Beth Kur said she prepared a search warrant, along with a motion to seal the affidavit, which was granted by a judge. She said the documents contained information known only to the perpetrator.

January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado
http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
Charlevoix, Michigan
March 06, 1997
http://www.acandyrose.com/03061997warrant.htm

Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
Charlevoix, Michigan
January 05, 1997
http://www.acandyrose.com/01051997warrant.htm