OK Foss lake Discovery

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I repeat what the other mechanics said ..... "engine mounts rarely fail "

But when they do it is usually due to a failure of the rubber component because of improper curing (of the rubber) during manufacture

A motor mount has two robust metal components .... one bolts to the car frame .... the other bolts to the engine ... and they are bonded together with rubber (see picture below)

We call them LORD MOUNTS (invented and mfgd by The Lord Corporation) ... even my helicopter uses Lord mounts on the engine , transmission & Rotorshaft .... they are typically a high quality item

However , it is not unheard of for a "batch" of engine mounts to be defective and fail ..... thus the recall by GM .... (they would certainly have had a reason for the recall)

And yes .... that alone could cause unexpected acceleration and an accident .... so if the forensics show a broken mount I would bet my life that was the cause of the Camaro accident.

Even a professional experience driver would be caught off guard in a situation like that .
 

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I think people would be surprised at how many people drown when their car goes into the water. Cars can sink completely in less than 30 seconds. Many people waste time trying to open doors, or even now, call 911. Unless you know to roll down the windows immediately, your chances of getting out go way down.
 
toddr said:
actually, no...you'd have to impact something pretty hard to bust a mount loose (I'm just being realistic)...Now if the weld cracked that secures the mount to the frame? The engine may tilt, but the gas pedal is secured to the carb with a tension cable (it would have to tilt an insane amount to disconnect and snap the linkage)...In effect, you'd have to impact something pretty hard. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a stuck throttle would more likely result from a spring or linkage failure than it would be a motor mount from excessive speed. Hope that helps...

ba8fs.jpg
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I respectfully disagree, especially on your mislabeled photo.
I'm not sure who labeled that photo, but they labeled it completely wrong.
The top metal rod (labeled "linkage") goes to another metal rod (see the clip connection behind the "e" in anchored) that is attached to the gas pedal. Below and to the right of that clip connection is the Z shaped rod (more like a Z with straight up & down vertical line) that goes to the gas pedal.
The cable labeled "tension cable to gas pedal" is NOT that at all. That is merely a separate linkage cable that goes to the automatic transmission for "kickdown" gear on full acceleration.

I'm saying all this mainly to correct the misinformation, not necessarily addressing it to Jimmy's car, tho it still does apply, as he had virtually the same gas pedal to carburetor linkage.

I owned several 60's to early 70's Chevys, from 327's to 454's. I've been working on cars since the mid 60's, extensively, and mostly Chevys.
I've also had broken driver's side motor mounts on 2 occasions. When this occurs, under high acceleration and torque, the motor lifts up on the driver's side, and depending on engine power/torque, can even raise high enough to strike the inside of the hood.
When the engine lifts in this manner, it pulls, twists, stresses, and binds both the Z shaped gas pedal rod and the carburetor linkage rod, and frequently causes the linkage/carburetor to stick "wide open" (as if you had the pedal to the floor).

I just wanted to correct the obvious errors on the labeled pic and also give a detailed explanation on how a gas pedal sticks when in cases of broken motor mounts. I will add,, if the passenger-side motor mount is broken, there is no issue with a sticking gas pedal, as engine torque when strongly accelerating will keep the engine pressed downward on the driver's side where it will sit solidly against against that side's motor mount, thus not lifting the engine or any possibility of twisting the linkage.
In other (simpler) words, on Chevys, only a broken DRIVER's side motor mount could possibly effect/cause a stuck gas pedal.
 
Methodical said:
. . .I've also had broken driver's side motor mounts on 2 occasions. When this occurs, under high acceleration and torque, the motor lifts up on the driver's side, and depending on engine power/torque, can even raise high enough to strike the inside of the hood.
When the engine lifts in this manner, it pulls, twists, stresses, and binds both the Z shaped gas pedal rod and the carburetor linkage rod, and frequently causes the linkage/carburetor to stick "wide open" (as if you had the pedal to the floor). . .
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I agree about the effects. I had that happen to me, although not in a chevy at the time. In my case I had to shut off the ignition but not far enough off to lock the steering but then my power steering did not work so it was a struggle. Older cars probably did not have the power steering aspect to mess with but the gas pedal being stuck with the engine wide open . . yeppers.
 
I owned a 69 Camaro when I was 16. In the middle of traffic when I slightly hit the peddle it just took off revving the motor high and shooting my car forward. Luckily I quickly hit the breaks and threw it in park before anything happened. I found out later it was a broken motor mount that caused the engine to torque and push the throttle up. Now that makes me angry that GM knew about that defect.

Also his car most likely had drum breaks. Drum breaks were horrible, just horrible on those cars. The speed and weight was just to much. I literally had to stand up on my seat, grabbing the steering wheel, and putting all my weight on the break pedal, I was literally in the air, trying to stop that dang thing so I didn't crash and die. That was just with me in the car, let alone other people.

Looking at the photos it appears the cars were at the boat launch and the road just drives directly into the lake. It's like being on a country road and then just dead ends into a lake. It appears as if the road would just keep going, but then it just cuts off. Imagine driving down a road at 40 or 50 mph, or maybe more, maybe he was showing off his car, then the road just instantly ends. No way you'd be able to stop. When the lake is low the water is also below the ramp. So it's a small drop off. It's like a road just ending at a small cliff. And if it was dark out even worse (didn't check what time it happened though). Really really poor design how they did that. And obviously dangerous.

No shoulder straps either on those cars. People weren't as serious about wearing seat belts anyway back then. So yeah, full speed run off the ramp, into water, they would hit the inside pretty hard. Then start sinking as they were out cold or disoriented. If by chance any were drinking, then even worse.

Probably same thing happened to the other car that got lost first. Same thing, even heavier, and worse breaks. At the time of both the accidents I bet there wasn't even a stop sign at the cross road right before the launch. Even if there was if you were driving one of those cars at a decent speed, with drum breaks, and a heavy car made heavier loaded with people, you wouldn't have enough time to stop before the boat launch and the water.

Here is one comment from a lady on one of the news articles, even today these things happen with lighter cars and better breaks:

"Jessica Mccollum, Indiana, United States, 8 months ago
Boat ramps/roads up to lakes are dangerous. Happened here in Indiana near my small town twice in the past 8 yrs, although they did not go missing, just died. One a pair of young men, not drunk; one an old lady who got confused. Tragic."
 
http://www.news9.com/story/26202135/new-developments-in-investigation-into-foss-lake-human-remains

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014, the Medical Examiner’s office released an autopsy report for one set of skeletal remains found in the Chevy sedan. There were two other sets of skeletal remains in the Chevy, and those autopsy reports have not been released.

According to the report, the incomplete skeletal remains consist of 105 bones, representing 58.1 percent by number and 92.47 percent by weight of a total skeleton. Authorities did not find any trauma to the remains, and do not believe that person was injured at the time of their death...

Based on the lack of trauma to the remains, the minimal amount of damage to the vehicle containing the remains, and the location the vehicle was recovered, authorities determined that the most probable cause of death is drowning. At this time, the manner of death appears to be accidental.
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http://kfor.com/2014/08/05/medical-examiner-releases-findings-related-to-bodies-found-in-foss-lake/

The report says investigators found several small items from the victims, including a bra strap, thigh-high panty hose, a purse and several articles of clothing inside one of the vehicles...

At this time, the report does not include positive identification of the victims.
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Thanks for the update and links everyone, but one of my thoughts was.....Mrs. Duncan was out in a vehicle with two men (neither of which her husband)....in that era that was much more 'peculiar' and unconventional....then we read that Mr. Duncan, her husband, who presumably never knew what happened to her, passed away two years later....interesting circumstance there....but maybe that's just me....i'll keep an eye on this one, for any other details coming from family.
 
Williams says he will always wonder what caused Jimmy and the others to end up dead in the bottom of Foss Lake.
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The car had marginal brakes for one thing .... but most likely it was an inadvertent drive into the lake thinking they were on a road

Anyone who has ever driven down a boat ramp at night knows it is very hard to distinguish between the road and the water ... everything looks black ... and that's when YOU KNOW the lake is there in the first place .... they probably did not

Old Cars like the 1952 Chev only had 6 volt batteries , lights were not very bright , lights were mounted quite high on the car fenders , and not pointed down toward the road (or lake)

The car had to be pushed to start it .... which means either the battery or generator were no good .... which means even dimmer headlights

Lots of legitimate possibilities , many major highways even had speed restrictions at night because of the poor visibility

By comparison today our headlights are at least 10 times brighter , they have special reflectors which distribute the light exactly where you need it ... highways have visible white centerlines , reflectors on curves , and most often reflective signs indicating campgrounds and boat launches etc etc.
 
Arnie M said:
The car had marginal brakes for one thing .... but most likely it was an inadvertent drive into the lake thinking they were on a road

Anyone who has ever driven down a boat ramp at night knows it is very hard to distinguish between the road and the water ... everything looks black ... and that's when YOU KNOW the lake is there in the first place .... they probably did not

Old Cars like the 1952 Chev only had 6 volt batteries , lights were not very bright , lights were mounted quite high on the car fenders , and not pointed down toward the road (or lake)

The car had to be pushed to start it .... which means either the battery or generator were no good .... which means even dimmer headlights

Lots of legitimate possibilities , many major highways even had speed restrictions at night because of the poor visibility

By comparison today our headlights are at least 10 times brighter , they have special reflectors which distribute the light exactly where you need it ... highways have visible white centerlines , reflectors on curves , and most often reflective signs indicating campgrounds and boat launches etc etc.
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Excellent points!
Lighting is another important thing to consider in some accidents- and yes, water can look just like an extension of the road...
 
dotr said:
Excellent points!
Lighting is another important thing to consider in some accidents- and yes, water can look just like an extension of the road...
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How drightening for those who perished in the water.
 
The moment the 1952 Chev hit the water the engine would have quit and lights would go out ... (remember the battery was no good in the car) .... in those couple of seconds would be the first indication to the driver and passengers to realize something was wrong ... they would be in complete darkness .... they may not even have known they were in a lake until enough water leaked into the car

And if they did figure out what happened it is impossible to push a car door open , the water pressure is too great , that is why rolling down a window and swimming out is the best .... but hardly anyone would know all that in those few seconds of utter darkness and confusion ... very sad.

trivia: the Camaro on the other hand had a good battery and the headlights (and battery) will actually still work for a while under water , not that it is much help to the occupants , but for a few moments they would be able to see they were in a lake and know they were sinking ..... but faced with the same problem of not being able to push doors open

afterthoughts: naturally this brings closure for the families and answers the questions about their disappearance .... but here is my point .... around the same time the teenagers disappeared , an out-of-town stolen and burned car (Corvette I think) was also found abandoned within the township ... this alone was a rare and unusual occurrence .... which gave rise to reasonable speculation that those "bandits" had done something to the Camaro occupants and maybe stolen their car ....

That would have been my best guess also .... just goes to show what may seem logical at the time can be so wrong

best wishes
 
The picture I saw of the drivers side of the Camaro shows that window up and covered in mud/silt.

December said:
According to CNN, the windows on the Camaro were down. And it went into the water backwards.

If the windows were down, it is weird no one escaped.

ETA

Even at this late date, it may be possible to come up with a decent estimate of how fast each car was traveling when it hit the water. If so, that will reveal much... such as
-Did one of both drivers mistake the dock for more road and literally drive into the water at a normal speed? (This would tell, perhaps, if people were stunned by the impact with the water)
-Did something cause one or both cars to slide into the water at a slower speed? (This would account for mechanical problems, and road conditions possibly causing an accident)
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I am very late to this as I only just read it when I clicked on the link that suggests reading the cold cases, which I plan to read them all :)
Just wanted to comment and say what a discovery!! lol. I can imagine their shock at just wanting to use their new equipment and ending up finding 6 bodies! that is crazy. I have been googling news articles about who was identified, and see that 2 people have and it seems to be obvious who the others are, but have any of the other 4 been identified officially? Or is it still just the first 2? Sorry if this has been answered, Im running late to work so havent had time to fully read this thread yet!
 
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