France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

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zwiebel,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ret-Al-Hilli-husband-will-not-be-exhumed.html

The above link tends to play down any connection between Jim Thompson's death and the Alps Murders. According to a family source, he had been having chest pain and refused to see a doctor. He seems pretty Tangential to the al-Hilli family situation. It was reported that a friend of his was married to some relative of Aqbal al-Hilli and married her is a standard "green-card" marriage arrangement. (he was a former cop and Oil Plant worker who was running an antique shop with his sister when he died). She was working as a dental assistant and apparently trying to obtain a dental Licence in the US. She eventually moved to Abu Dhabi where she met Saad al-Hilli. Supposively she had no contact with Thompson after that and Saad never knew she had been married to an American. Dying the same day is quite a coincidence but I can't see any obvious way his death might be connected.

Also,

PM, the former military cyclist,was not killed. He was the first person to come upon the crime scene. SM, the French Nuclear Service Technician cyclist, was the one apparently shot first, but was he "trying to help" or was something else going on?

Al-Hilli's mother-in-law did "carry" a Swedish passport. Apparently she was an ethnic Iranian, not an Iraqi. It is not clear if she was still living in Sweden or if Aqbal had any ties to Sweden. She studied Dentistry in Iraq so presumably her father is Iraqi.

The missing passports are just another strange element of this case. From what I can tell, there was evidence that someone had gone through SM's pockets but nothing obvious, like money or a watch were missing. When PM arrived, al-Hilli's door was locked and I am not aware that there was any evidence the car had be searched. If it had, wouldn't the hiding child have been found? There was very little time available between the shooting nd PM seeing the mystery motorcycle going down the hill. I haven't read anywhere that there was evidence that the Caravan (trailer) in the Camping site had been search before the French Police got to it. England is not in the Schengen Zone so they would definitely have need passports to enter France.
 
colette said:
From Kemo's Link: According to the report, Mollier the cyclist was the first person to catch the assassin’s wrath.

... investigators now know with certainty that al-Hilli and his daughter Zainab were outside the family car when Mollier was shot. The cyclist’s blood was on al-Hilli’s pant leg and on the soles of his daughter’s feet, even though al-Hilli was shot through the window as he sat in the driver seat.

The first shots at Mollier didn’t kill him, based on his autopsy report and his trail of blood on the ground. Instead, investigators theorize that the assassin disabled the cyclist—perhaps intentionally keeping him alive—and then turned fire to the al-Hillis. According to the report, Saad al-Hilli then scrambled back into the family car, locked the doors and frantically threw the vehicle into reverse,.....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...s-murder-mystery-s-forensic-breakthrough.html
Click to expand...

I really wish the Daily Beast would have quoted a specific source (or even an anonymous source) in this report...because it is really interesting. I think this is important information in this case and I hate to see sloppy reporting. I soooo want to believe what they said. (Perhaps other media reported on it and confirms it?)

My apologies if this was discussed previously ..but my memory is pathetic!
 
colette said:
I guess the source is the French Investigators...

" on Friday, French authorities released the first solid ballistic and blood-splatter-trajectory report, which has turned the investigation upside down.

According to the report, Mollier the cyclist was the first person to catch the assassin’s wrath.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...s-murder-mystery-s-forensic-breakthrough.html
Click to expand...

Yup, I was probably too skeptical with my observation.

So can we see the report? Was it released to all media? Just curious. I have been concerned all along that the french investigators were too dismissive (for political reasons) that anyone other than the al Hilli family could have been the main target.

I'd even accept that the al Hilli family were targets along with someone else (i.e. Mollier or another cyclist?)

That's not to say that the al Hilli's couldn't have been the main target, however I have the sense that the french LE doth protest too much.
 
I got the victim mixed up with the man who came across the crime scene, blush.

I can't work out for the life of me why the passports would be missing unless:

The Al Hilli's hid them so carefully (fearing theft) that police just didn't find them

The killer needed them to access secret bank accounts in Switzerland, perhaps?
 
ZaZara said:
They have a 'map' of the shooting as well. The shooter ended up hitting the eldest girl with the gun because he ran out of bullets.
I feel for the father, he made it back to the car, but the girl was left outside. I hope he was not aware of that during his last moments. :-(

I'll try to put the map here, in case this does not work, here is a link:
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/infographie/2012/10/27/tuerie-de-chevaline-un-tueur-seul-determine-et-d-une-grande-brutalite_1782079_3224.html


tuerie-de-chevaline-un-tueur-seul-determine-et-d-une-grande-brutalite_1782079_3224.html
Click to expand...

Snipped and BBM

From a previous posting of mine, here is a map of the shooting.
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/infogr...2079_3224.html

According to this map, the father and the eldest daughter were not standing near SM when they were shot.
I've been thinking about why these two would have gotten out of the car while the others (Mother, grandmother, youngest daughter) were still in it.
The girl has been questioned by the police. What she told them has not been made public, other than that there was one shooter, a bad man.
So my thoughts are pure speculation, but I cannot imagine that a parent would take his children to some conspiracy / espionage / blackmail /money laundering meeting .
The explanation could be simple and innocent, as any parent knows who has children and some woods nearby for a sanitary stop.

SM was the first target of the shooter. The shooter was waiting for him, but he had not seen the car arrive or thought it was empty.
He aims and shoots SM and at that moment, father and daughter appear from the woods.
They see the cyclist, who has fallen or is falling, and hasten towards him.
The shooter aims at these witnesses, the father runs to the car ... he might have made it if the car had not gotten stuck.
The shooter now has to kill all the witnesses, he is not aware of the second girl on the floor of the car. This is telling.
He runs out of bullets, that is very telling too.
He hits the eldest girl and disappears on his motorbike.

Moments later, the British cyclist arrives at the scene.

By all accounts, the shooter was local or regional.
IMHO much in this case points to the Frenchman SM being the main target of a premeditated murder.
Someone warned the shooter that the cyclist was coming up the hill. But neither the person who alerted the shooter, nor the shooter himself were in a location where they could have been aware of the presence of the car. There is no connection to the mobile network at that spot, the British cyclist had to go downhill to be able to alert the police.

I'd say, follow the money, in France.

The so called mystery of the secret husband of Iqbal is a lot of tosh.
Why would a well ecducated woman from a well-to-do family marry a policeman and former worker in the oil industry with bad teeth?
She married him so she could get a Green Card, and she told her family that she had managed to get the Green Card, but not how.
She probably had good reasons for not wanting to upset them.

At the rate they are going, the French police will be digging up conflicts from previous lives soon and there will be no way that the poor reincarnations could have seen these retributions coming.
:notgood: :notgood:
 
ZaZara said:
Snipped and BBM

From a previous posting of mine, here is a map of the shooting.
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/infogr...2079_3224.html

According to this map, the father and the eldest daughter were not standing near SM when they were shot.
I've been thinking about why these two would have gotten out of the car while the others (Mother, grandmother, youngest daughter) were still in it.
The girl has been questioned by the police. What she told them has not been made public, other than that there was one shooter, a bad man.
So my thoughts are pure speculation, but I cannot imagine that a parent would take his children to some conspiracy / espionage / blackmail /money laundering meeting .
The explanation could be simple and innocent, as any parent knows who has children and some woods nearby for a sanitary stop.

SM was the first target of the shooter. The shooter was waiting for him, but he had not seen the car arrive or thought it was empty.
He aims and shoots SM and at that moment, father and daughter appear from the woods.
They see the cyclist, who has fallen or is falling, and hasten towards him.
The shooter aims at these witnesses, the father runs to the car ... he might have made it if the car had not gotten stuck.
The shooter now has to kill all the witnesses, he is not aware of the second girl on the floor of the car. This is telling.
He runs out of bullets, that is very telling too.
He hits the eldest girl and disappears on his motorbike.

Moments later, the British cyclist arrives at the scene.

By all accounts, the shooter was local or regional.
IMHO much in this case points to the Frenchman SM being the main target of a premeditated murder.
Someone warned the shooter that the cyclist was coming up the hill. But neither the person who alerted the shooter, nor the shooter himself were in a location where they could have been aware of the presence of the car. There is no connection to the mobile network at that spot, the British cyclist had to go downhill to be able to alert the police.

I'd say, follow the money, in France.

The so called mystery of the secret husband of Iqbal is a lot of tosh.
Why would a well ecducated woman from a well-to-do family marry a policeman and former worker in the oil industry with bad teeth?
She married him so she could get a Green Card, and she told her family that she had managed to get the Green Card, but not how.
She probably had good reasons for not wanting to upset them.

At the rate they are going, the French police will be digging up conflicts from previous lives soon and there will be no way that the poor reincarnations could have seen these retributions coming.
:notgood: :notgood:
Click to expand...
According to investigators, blood splatters from SM were found on the shoes of SAH and the oldest daughter, indicating they were standing very near SM when he was shot (per link earlier in thread). So, the shooter had to be well aware of the presence of the Al-Hillis and the adults in the back seat of the car should have been visible to the shooter, too. SM was shot, then, while SAH and the girl were outside of the vehicle, seemingly interacting with SM. After SM was shot (multiple times, so the shooter certainly wanted him dead), SAH had time to jump into the car and put it in reverse. The girl didn't have time to get back in the car, but SAH may have backed up so that she could jump in (while shielding her from the bullets, maybe). But, SAH was then shot.

That the girl was pistol-whipped after the shooter ran out of bullets suggests that the shooter was intent on killing all of the adults and was likely concerned only about the girl running for help or being a witness (less likely, since there are adult witnesses who survived an encounter with the shooter shortly afterwards and were able to offer a general description, which has not seemed helpful, anyway).

IMO, SM and SAH were meeting on some business deal which SAH never thought of as dangerous, but someone was intent on intercepting the deal. The shooter knew where they planned to meet so was either party to the business venture or had overheard one of the men (probably SM) arranging the meeting.

Passports, IMO, would most likely be kept with luggage. So, I think the family left their passports at the campground. The killer or a second person may have gone to the campsite and taken them before LE arrived. Another possibility is that, if this was the first meeting of SM and SAH, SM requested that the Al-Hillis bring their passports to the meeting site so he could verify their identities before proceeding with the business deal. So, if SAH was showing SM the passports as the shooter arrived, it would have been very convenient for the shooter to quickly grab the passports, along with any other documents the men were exchanging, before fleeing the murder scene.

JMO
 
Indy Anna said:
According to investigators, blood splatters from SM were found on the shoes of SAH and the oldest daughter, indicating they were standing very near SM when he was shot (per link earlier in thread). So, the shooter had to be well aware of the presence of the Al-Hillis and the adults in the back seat of the car should have been visible to the shooter, too. SM was shot, then, while SAH and the girl were outside of the vehicle, seemingly interacting with SM. After SM was shot (multiple times, so the shooter certainly wanted him dead), SAH had time to jump into the car and put it in reverse. The girl didn't have time to get back in the car, but SAH may have backed up so that she could jump in (while shielding her from the bullets, maybe). But, SAH was then shot.

That the girl was pistol-whipped after the shooter ran out of bullets suggests that the shooter was intent on killing all of the adults and was likely concerned only about the girl running for help or being a witness (less likely, since there are adult witnesses who survived an encounter with the shooter shortly afterwards and were able to offer a general description, which has not seemed helpful, anyway).

IMO, SM and SAH were meeting on some business deal which SAH never thought of as dangerous, but someone was intent on intercepting the deal. The shooter knew where they planned to meet so was either party to the business venture or had overheard one of the men (probably SM) arranging the meeting.

Passports, IMO, would most likely be kept with luggage. So, I think the family left their passports at the campground. The killer or a second person may have gone to the campsite and taken them before LE arrived. Another possibility is that, if this was the first meeting of SM and SAH, SM requested that the Al-Hillis bring their passports to the meeting site so he could verify their identities before proceeding with the business deal. So, if SAH was showing SM the passports as the shooter arrived, it would have been very convenient for the shooter to quickly grab the passports, along with any other documents the men were exchanging, before fleeing the murder scene.

JMO
Click to expand...

BBM

Can you please specify the link that you are referring to?
The only links that I see recycle information from October 2012 when the investigation was in it's early stages.
Since then, no relation whatsoever has been established between the AH family and the French cyclist SM, nor have any illegal activities of either been discovered.
 
ZaZara said:
BBM

Can you please specify the link that you are referring to?
The only links that I see recycle information from October 2012 when the investigation was in it's early stages.
Since then, no relation whatsoever has been established between the AH family and the French cyclist SM, nor have any illegal activities of either been discovered.
Click to expand...
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...s-murder-mystery-s-forensic-breakthrough.html
<snipped>
Mollier had been shot, it was originally thought, only because he was a witness to the carnage. But after meticulous forensic analyses of the blood splatters on the bodies and especially the soles of the victims&#8217; feet, investigators now know with certainty that al-Hilli and his daughter Zainab were outside the family car when Mollier was shot. The cyclist&#8217;s blood was on al-Hilli&#8217;s pant leg and on the soles of his daughter&#8217;s feet, even though al-Hilli was shot through the window as he sat in the driver seat.
Click to expand...
BBM

Yes, this is an article from 2012, but why would forensic evidence change since then?

I am inferring a business relationship between SM and the Al-Hillis from the evidence that SM, SAH and the older girl were in close proximity when SM was murdered. Just trying to piece everything together to make sense of the case. That's why I said IMO and JMO.

Hope this answers your question.
 
Indy Anna said:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...s-murder-mystery-s-forensic-breakthrough.html
<snipped>

BBM

Yes, this is an article from 2012, but why would forensic evidence change since then?

I am inferring a business relationship between SM and the Al-Hillis from the evidence that SM, SAH and the older girl were in close proximity when SM was murdered. Just trying to piece everything together to make sense of the case. That's why I said IMO and JMO.

Hope this answers your question.
Click to expand...

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but no business relationship has been established between SM and the AH-family.
It Just Is Not There, and if it were, it would have been established by now.

The girl may have gotten blood on her feet when she tried to follow the car and that car dragged the bleeding body of SM along
 
Indy Anna wrote: According to investigators, blood splatters from SM were found on the shoes of SAH and the oldest daughter, indicating they were standing very near SM when he was shot (per link earlier in thread).

But the link actually said: The cyclist’s blood was on al-Hilli’s pant leg and on the soles of his daughter’s feet, even though al-Hilli was shot through the window as he sat in the driver seat.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...akthrough.html

The blood was on the soles of the daughter's feet and Dad's pant leg. It doesn't say splatter, they could have gotten blood by trying to help the first person shot until they realized they were targets too.... The main thing is the cyclist was shot first and probably therefore "the target of the hit". IMO
 
The possibility/likelihood that that SM and SAH were involved in some nefarious dealings and both were targets of the killer elevates this case from "conventional" murder to an "espionage" murder. SAH was an engineer who, while not involved in the nuclear industry, had the credibility and the expertise to work with those who were. He was a known "hater of Israel" and had ties to Iran. SM was an employee of Cezus, a local company that made zirconium metalworking for nuclear fuel rods. He performed a highly technical type of welding. He had recently taken an extended "paternity" leave. Iran was trying to develop nuclear weapon capability but they were under a world embargo that made access to equipment and expertise difficult. The inference is pretty clear.

The two facts; which seem pretty well documented, that establish this connection between SM and SAH are:

1)The Layby (parking area) was an unnamed, obscure spot that a family on holiday might stop at but not one that a family would plan to go to and communicate that plan to anyone else. Yet, the killer arrived before them; he knew they were going there. There was some arranged plan for the family to be there and the killer got wind of that plan. The fact that they "interacted" with SM upon his arrival is very strongly suggestive that the "plan was a meeting with SM.

2)The killer did not act until SM arrived and then opened fire on SM while he was close to SAH and then proceeded to Systematically kill the three al-Hilli adults. This was an open area with plenty of space and only SM and SAH (and possibly Zainab) Had SM been going in that direction for a reason that did not involve SMH, he would have maintained reasonable distance. This is human nature. There was only one explanation as to why SAH was close enough to SM to get blood splatter when he was shoot: They were "interacting".

There is no getting around it: SM and SAH were up to something and it got them killed.
 
The Dail Mail has the Whole Story about Iqbal's so called secret marriage
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Now-Mails-uncovered-drastic-new-evidence.html

It was at a family gathering in New Orleans that Iqbal — who now went by the Westernised name of ‘Kelly’ — first met Jim and came up with the idea of a marriage of convenience which would enable to her to get a coveted Green Card, allowing her to work legally in the U.S.
Click to expand...

‘She was a lovely, sweet woman but we always knew it was a temporary thing and that one day she would leave. Kelly was looking for the great American dream, but she didn’t quite find it.’
Click to expand...

The Mail has discovered that this latest twist in the Alps tragedy was randomly dropped into a conversation between a police officer and a French journalist from a local paper in recent weeks.

Officers have now told the Mail that they knew about the first marriage as early as December 2012

‘A request for exhumation and an autopsy was refused because there wasn’t a good enough reason in the eyes of the U.S. authorities,’ said French prosecutor Eric Maillaud.

‘Given the facts which are now circulating, investigators are looking to make a new demand to the FBI that will perhaps lead to an exhumation and autopsy; but what we will discover two years after the death we will have to see.’
Click to expand...

BBM

This story is old news, it was deemed irrelevant at the time and it is not even sure if the investigators will make a new request to the FBI.
 
When posting, if it is your opinion please state so when you post. If you are posting what has been reported please provide a link to the article or the MSM report. Thanks :tyou:
 
Sounding like she may have been a spy, Or a double agent? maybe idk jmo So so strange
 
Elley Mae said:
Sounding like she may have been a spy, Or a double agent? maybe idk jmo So so strange
Click to expand...

If you are referring to Iqbal, she was a dentist.

What makes you think she was a spy or a double agent??
 
If you follow the Craig Murray blog and the comments, you will find some rather thorough research and a lot over-the-top conjecture. If Bluebird is on the level (unfortunately some of his links no longer work), it seems Jim Thompson met Iqbal in 1999 through a relative from Iraq, Sabah al Shaikhly who was married to his cousin, Mary Weatherly. The marriage was a fairly typical "green card" arrangement that are very common in the US. This marriage would be nothing but a curiosity had Thompson not died the same day as the Alps killing.

I can't see where Thopsom might fit in unless Iqbal played a significant role in whatever was going on. She and her mother were both both not only shot in the confrontation but each had the signature two bullets to the head. The killer was making sure they were dead..
 
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