France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

[ZaZara]

All adults received at least one of those execution style shots. The author considers the hypothesis of Mollier as the main target as one of the least likely. He could not get much information about him and his family, but the little he could get no points to him.

I will explain it in more detail another day. The economic issue is one of the strengths of the book. And for example, the author explains perfectly the nature of the problem between Saad and his brother Ziad.

When one understand the problem, it is very unlikely that Ziad hire a murderer to kill his brother. It would have been more likely the opposite.

I never found the family feud in the AH family very convincing as a motive for the killings, because the two girls survived and the killer seems not to have been aware at all of the existence / presence of the youngest girl.

 

[colette]

Whereas there was a big motive for the murder of Mollier. He might have been over-stepping his bounds as father to the baby. Stopped working, spending money and really who knows what he said his future plans were. Maybe someone was afraid he would try to take custody of the baby or use it as a cash cow. There have been many, many murders over child custody issues.

 

[ZaZara]

Whereas there was a big motive for the murder of Mollier. He might have been over-stepping his bounds as father to the baby. Stopped working, spending money and really who knows what he said his future plans were. Maybe someone was afraid he would try to take custody of the baby or use it as a cash cow. There have been many, many murders over child custody issues.

There was a big motive for the murder of Mollier indeed. But did it happen? (And why would a family of chemists use a gun?) If this was the case, then there would have been ample opportunities. The local murderer might have waited. No need to shoot the AH family as well because they were in the way. And if the AH family arrived at the scene while SM was being shot, why would they have left the car? Everything points to the idea that the car was already there and that the father and eldest daughter had gone out when the shooting started.


I tend to agree with Ian Horrocks' opinion that the scenario of a random, disorganized killer is the most plausible.

My top-3:

1. ****** Random disorganized psycho killer
2. *** Molier target of family or rival who wanted him out of the way
3. * AH feud over inheritance

 

[Snoopster]

There was a big motive for the murder of Mollier indeed. But did it happen? (And why would a family of chemists use a gun?) If this was the case, then there would have been ample opportunities. The local murderer might have waited. No need to shoot the AH family as well because they were in the way. And if the AH family arrived at the scene while SM was being shot, why would they have left the car? Everything points to the idea that the car was already there and that the father and eldest daughter had gone out when the shooting started.


I tend to agree with Ian Horrocks' opinion that the scenario of a random, disorganized killer is the most plausible.

My top-3:

1. ****** Random disorganized psycho killer
2. *** Molier target of family or rival who wanted him out of the way
3. * AH feud over inheritance

bbm

Haha! I hadn't thought of the chemist angle. You make some good points. I actually think though that if he was drugged/poisoned, then we know where they would have looked first for the perpetrator. I agree though that if it was a local murder/murderer, why not pick a different time when the extra witnesses were there?

 

[Muy Curioso]

If someone planned to kill Mollier, for whatever reason, it was pretty easy. A great fan of cycling is a nice target for a hit and run. And no one would suspect.

The author of the book explains well why a pharmacy motive is highly unlikely. It posed no threat to anyone's interests, but it must be explained more calmly. As for some jealous boyfriend or husband, it is not a promising way. He had success with women, but Maillaud says they found no affair while he was with Claire, last two years.

Parry shows that ALL theories are very unlikely, but in the end he makes a little mess. He does not think that Mollier was the objective or that there was a crazy killer. He believes that some of the family had to be the target, but seems to lean more to Iqbal or his mother than by Saad.

But then he contradicts himself, saying that the killer must be someone familiar with the area.

 

[Muy Curioso]

A very interesting information from the book:

Zainab could give very little information about the crimes. She saw only one person, but the incident traumatized her and her testimony should be taken with caution. For example, she does not remember any cyclist.

But an important fact that she remember: She was who decided where they went that day. She told detectives that her father proposed her to choose between shopping, going to the town or to the mountains. She chose to go to the mountains.

 

[Muy Curioso]

Something that caught my attention when I was reading Parry's book is that he just write about the testimony of Martin, the English cyclist. It says so in passing, and without discussing the implications. The author prefers to discuss one by one the various scenarios. And so does Maillaud when interviewed by Parry. He reviews the options, but ignores the testimony of Martin. Neither Parry or Maillaud discuss it, they ignore it, even when it contradicts some of the hypothesis they are talking about.

Martin's testimony is very, very strong. He is a good witness, he explained well, do not try to say more than he has seen, and above all, he clearly separates what he saw of what he thinks about it.

In my opinion, there are at least 80% (I think 90% rather) chance that the testimony of Martin corresponds with reality. The other 20% corresponds to a 5% chance that he was involved in crime or he had other reason to lie, and a 15% of him being wrong in good faith.

When there is such a strong testimony, we must build on it rather than ignore and make hypothesis of nowhere. Martin's testimony, along with pictures taken by the Al Hilli family, point us in a very specific direction. Rather, they eliminate many directions, leaving only a few options.


Martin statements can be discussed or accepted. But we can not ignore them.

______________________

Other issues:

-The motorcyclist for who they were looking for two years can not be the same as was seen by Martin. And if he is the same, then he lied. This man was seen near the scene of the crime before or about 15:00, and left the place at that time, according to his testimony. Martin saw a motorcyclist about 15:30 hours, three to five minutes before arriving at the scene. Almost certainly the motorcyclist seen Martin was the killer, or one of them.

-Alternative escape routes to the Col of Cherel are very unlikely. Look at this video, the second of the same author, who briefly explores these routes.


[video=youtube;OvjqI1M6lvY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvjqI1M6lvY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvjqI1M6lvY[/video]

The video author is ALEXANDER CARTIER

 

[Snoopster]

Three years after the murders, there is a 6-part article in GQ about the case. I haven't had a chance to read it all yet, but here is a link to the first part:

http://www.gq.com/story/alps-murder-chevaline-solving-crime

 

[colette]

I read the first 3 chapters, the rest not published yet. It is very interesting can't wait to see more. So far no reason for the murders and no suspects....

 

[Muy Curioso]

The fourth part:

http://www.gq.com/story/alps-murder-chevaline-arrest-killer

Sean Flynn also identifies the motorcyclist seen by forestry workers as the same who was seen by Brett Martin, but the known facts do not support that theory.

Forestry workers saw the motorcyclist withe the strange helmet before three in the afternoon. Brett Martin saw him about half past three. Three to five minutes before arriving at the crime scene.

Crime points to where pointed in september 2012: None of the victims were the target. Maillaud and detectives have already spent three years.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

murder victim ‘was in secret relationship with her ex-husband’: Sister of American who died on same day as Al-Hilli family says pair stayed in contact during nine-year marriage

Iqbal Al-Hilli was in secret online relationship with ex-husband, it is claimed

She and husband Saad, 50, were gunned down in the French Alps in 2012

It later emerged Mrs Al-Hilli had a secret ex-husband Jim Thompson in US

Now his sister says pair stayed in touch during Mrs Al-Hilli's new marriage

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...contact-nine-year-marriage.html#ixzz3mRzmHD2f

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

I Don't really see the similarities but ya never know. http://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/ne...inked-to-murdered-derbyshire-couple-1-7664674

 

[Snoopster]

I Don't really see the similarities but ya never know. http://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/ne...inked-to-murdered-derbyshire-couple-1-7664674

Not seeing the connection either. OK, they were British. They were in an isolated area of France. The suspect lives a couple of hours away from the Al Hilli killings.

However, they were bound; they were buried; it was more than 25 years earlier, they were a couple, while the Al Hillis were a family of 5.

Seems tenuous to me.

 

[Snoopster]

I missed this item from back in December....

The two traces of DNA found recently in a further forensic search of the Al-Hilli car may offer a new line of inquiry or they may prove to be another cul-de-sac. The traces, one found on the front bumper and another under the driver’s floor mat, match none of the victims and nobody on the European criminal data base.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-alps-murders-dna-found-on-car-belonging-to-al-hilli-family-broadens-investigation-a6782101.html

It's not much, but better than nothing. I would find it surprising if the DNA sample from under the driver's side mat is related to this crime. On the other hand, maybe the DNA found on the bumper is relevant??

I am really wondering if this crime will ever be solved.

 

[Ellmau]

It was a hire car, wasn't it? So many perfectly innocent people must have used it I'm sceptical these traces are going to help.

 

[kemo]

This case probably should move to Cold Cases but I don't know how to do that. The latest status of the case that I can find is as follows:

The earliest theory that the murders were initiated by Al-Hilli's brother seems to have fallen by the wayside. While he has not been officially cleared, all indications are that the investigation has moved in other directions.

The Theory that Mollier was targeted by his girlfriend's family has pretty well been debunked. However, his status as an innocent bystander no longer stands either. Thorough investigation of the crime scene suggests that he was interacting with Al-Hilli when the shooting began, he appears to have been the first to be shot, he received seven shots including 2 head shots after he was down and his body may have been moved post mortem. Whatever the motive, the killer definitely wanted Mollier and the Al-Hilli adults all dead.

Martin and at least one other witness were very clear that no vehicle followed the Al-Hilli vehicle ( and Mollier). The Killer(s) arrived at the site before them.

Martin also reported that a motorcycle passed him coming from the direction of the crime scene 3 to 5 minutes before he arrived. The rider was a middle aged man with a goatee. He was wearing an unusual black helmet. The composite has received considerable exposure. Recently, Maillaud has disclosed that the motorcyclist has been identified as a Businessman from Lyon who has been cleared. He was seen by forestry workers and a dairyman at approximately 3:00pm somewhere further up that road past the crime scene. He did not notice anything unusual when he passed the crime scene. Was he the Motorcyclist Martin passed?

Forestry workers recalled seeing a white BMW X5 4X4 with right side drive ( from the UK) in the area and Martin had reported that a 4 X 4 had passed him coming down the hill before the motorcyclist. This vehicle has never been identified.

The road beyond the crime scene is a narrow dirt track that is closed to the public. There was no barrier and one could get to Switzerland through the network roads in the region but it seems that anyone who tried to do that would have encountered forest workers, farmers and others who did have access. There is no report of any other unaccounted for vehicles in the area. I can't establish with any certainty that it would have been impossible for the killer to make an escape without descending through the village of Chevaline (passing Martin).

Apparently the "strongest" suspect now is a former French Legionnaire who knew the family of Mollier's girlfriend and committed suicide two months after he was questioned. He left a 7 page letter, the contents of which have not been disclosed, except for for saying that he could not stand being a suspect in the murder. Unless there is more, it all sounds pretty week.

Maillaud has told reporters that Al-Hilli had asked the proprietor of the campground he was staying in for possible routes to explore the local forests. The proprietor gave him directions to a route near where they ended up. The implication is that they had no plans to go to the spot they were killed; it was entirely an accident. This would rule out a planned "hit" and establish that the "random killing by a local madman" was the likely explanation.

Somehow this explanation just isn't satisfying to me. The shooting was awfully proficient for some crazied madman. Too many coincidences for some random mass murder.

Neither Mollier nor Al -Hilli had the kind of information they could sell as spies but Mollier had a skill vital to the nuclear industry and he recently negotiated a three year leave of absence from his job. Sounds like he might have lined up some kind of lucrative short term gig. Iran was attempting to develop a nuclear industry in spite of a worldwide embargo, and Al-Hilli had ties to Iran. Was Al-Hilli recruiting for Iran and some intelligence agency got wind of it and snuffed it out? Would such a connection result in pressure being brought on some local prosecutor to "can it"? Maybe I just read too many spy novels.

 

[colette]

Snipped by me

The Theory that Mollier was targeted by his girlfriend's family has pretty well been debunked. However, his status as an innocent bystander no longer stands either. Thorough investigation of the crime scene suggests that he was interacting with Al-Hilli when the shooting began, he appears to have been the first to be shot, he received seven shots including 2 head shots after he was down and his body may have been moved post mortem. Whatever the motive, the killer definitely wanted Mollier and the Al-Hilli adults all dead.


Apparently the "strongest" suspect now is a former French Legionnaire who knew the family of Mollier's girlfriend and committed suicide two months after he was questioned. He left a 7 page letter, the contents of which have not been disclosed, except for for saying that he could not stand being a suspect in the murder. Unless there is more, it all sounds pretty week.

Maillaud has told reporters that Al-Hilli had asked the proprietor of the campground he was staying in for possible routes to explore the local forests. The proprietor gave him directions to a route near where they ended up. The implication is that they had no plans to go to the spot they were killed; it was entirely an accident. This would rule out a planned "hit" and establish that the "random killing by a local madman" was the likely explanation.

Somehow this explanation just isn't satisfying to me. The shooting was awfully proficient for some crazied madman. Too many coincidences for some random mass murder.
.

I think the former French Legionnaire was hired by Mollier's girlfriend's family to kill Mollier. The Al-Hilli family got in the way and had to be killed. The man then could not live with himself after killing and maiming an innocent family.

 

[Giucy]

Sorry, I didn't read the 2 threads yet.

But before Chevaline, there was another murder with very similar characteristics near Nancy (France), in 2011.
A Belgian father was shot to death on the A31 on a service station while his two sons were sleeping. In this case, the weapon was a Swiss firearm of collection (like in Chevaline).
What caught my attention is that the victim worked in a vaccine factory owned by GSK. GSK's global headquarters are in UK.
The arm was a heavy Swiss collector gun similar to Chevaline (not the same, I know). Both were foreign tourists. Both were killed in a parking. Both victims were unknown to the killer.
Both had links with UK, even if the victim of the A31's link to UK is very weak.

Also, in both case, you can see some ties with Switzerland.
Chevaline is nearby the Swiss boarder.
You can also reach Genève via the A31, the French interstate where the murder before Chevaline took place.


IMO, in these two cases, the killer is one and a same person. The fact that the firearm is different in the two cases doesn't discount this possibility because a firearm collector can and do own more than one gun.
He chooses places where he can reach the Swiss boarder easily.
He likes collector firearms, and might socialise with people with this interest.


International ramifications, you bet !!
I would concentrate the sleuthing to UK and Switzerland IMHO. And concentrate the sleuthing to a coldly planned murder by a killer unknown to the family.

 

[Muy Curioso]

Sorry, I didn't read the 2 threads yet.

But before Chevaline, there was another murder with very similar characteristics near Nancy (France), in 2011.
A Belgian father was shot to death on the A31 on a service station while his two sons were sleeping. In this case, the weapon was a Swiss firearm of collection (like in Chevaline).
What caught my attention is that the victim worked in a vaccine factory owned by GSK. GSK's global headquarters are in UK.
The arm was a heavy Swiss collector gun similar to Chevaline (not the same, I know). Both were foreign tourists. Both were killed in a parking. Both victims were unknown to the killer.
Both had links with UK, even if the victim of the A31's link to UK is very weak.

Also, in both case, you can see some ties with Switzerland.
Chevaline is nearby the Swiss boarder.
You can also reach Genève via the A31, the French interstate where the murder before Chevaline took place.


IMO, in these two cases, the killer is one and a same person. The fact that the firearm is different in the two cases doesn't discount this possibility because a firearm collector can and do own more than one gun.
He chooses places where he can reach the Swiss boarder easily.
He likes collector firearms, and might socialise with people with this interest.


International ramifications, you bet !!
I would concentrate the sleuthing to UK and Switzerland IMHO. And concentrate the sleuthing to a coldly planned murder by a killer unknown to the family.

The possible connection with the murder of Xavier Baligant was already proposed shortly after the crime. I think too they are related. Good luck in your research, and report if you find something interesting. By the way, I do not think that Baligant's work matters.

 

[Indy Anna]

Snipped by me

I think the former French Legionnaire was hired by Mollier's girlfriend's family to kill Mollier. The Al-Hilli family got in the way and had to be killed. The man then could not live with himself after killing and maiming an innocent family.

I tend to agree. After Mollier was shot once, maybe he pulled off road before falling to ground, and that's when the Al-Hilli family saw him and thought he had a cycling injury so pulled over to help.

Isn't it possible the shooter, seeing that his target was still alive and receiving help, panicked and began firing madly -- first at SM to ensure he was dead as he was hired to do, and then fired also on Al-Hilli family as they ran for the car to escape when they realized what was happening (to leave no witnesses).

I would imagine someone who was not bothered by killing a man might very well be troubled by killing women and possibly a child (or leaving her orphaned). The fact that the girl survived may suggest that the killer really didn't have the heart to kill her, else he would have ensured she was dead before leaving the scene. IMO, it would not be a stretch to think that someone who was so conflicted about the murder of an innocent family later committed suicide when questioned about something that had traumatized him. IMO, it's also telling that he -- not LE -- labelled himself a suspect.