GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972
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Yes, me too!
Magellan333
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My aunt lived on the same street as Carlene and knew her, but not well. She said Carlene was always sitting with the black kids at school and this was very odd for the time. The schools had only integrated very recently. The Miracles of Loss article even mentions Carlene as being the only white kid in the International Brotherhood of Race Relations (or something like that). Some in Macon suspected this might have contributed to her going missing.
I lived in the area for a while and took great interest in her case. I pulled some old Macon Telegraphs in the days following her going missing. Not a word was mentioned.
I lived in the area for a while and took great interest in her case. I pulled some old Macon Telegraphs in the days following her going missing. Not a word was mentioned.
dogperson
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I had heard she was a supporter of civil rights and had black friends in a time when that was not at all popular with many Southern families. Being a Southerner myself, I remember people's attitudes when I was a kid in the 70s. Where I was from, having black friends or a black boyfriend would get you ostracized or worse. Maybe some "good ole boy" took Carlene. I have never lived in GA but where I was from, I can kind of picture somebody thinking he was going to "teach her a lesson". If LE suspected something like that, maybe they just didn't care, maybe they thought she got what she deserved? They definitely dropped the ball on this case in a big way. It was probably solvable at the time. If a local guy did it, somebody probably knew something...his buddies, his relatives. This could have been a racially motivated crime. I remember how people were treated in the 70s if they had black friends or significant others. So sad and so wrong, the way things were and still are in many places.
galateasca
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You must also remember that Macon was far less progressive than Atlanta, even though Macon was not a tiny burg. I can easily, having grown up in Georgia at that time, Carlene having problems with other kids at school because of her friendship choices. Even Atlanta was not that progressive in the early 70's. I still believe that Carlene was taken by someone she knew and her remains, if they are ever found will be relatively close to home.
dogperson
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The boyfriend was white, I'm pretty positive, and was working at his job at the grocery store in the same shopping center area where Carlene was that day. She left a note on his car about seeing him later that night. I suppose that means he had a valid alibi for the afternoon she disappeared, but so little was done on this case by police it's hard to know for sure.
I didn't know much about POW bracelets but I found this article about the origin of them. When Carlene was wearing hers in 1972 the idea of POW bracelets would still have been very new. The manufacture of them, according to this article, began in the 1970s and continued until 1976. Maybe it was a trendy thing when Carlene was a teen. I was only 2 years old when Carlene disappeared and I don't really remember a thing about Vietnam or the POW bracelets. Personally, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone wearing one.
But here is a link so some info about the bracelets for anyone interested.
http://www.miafacts.org/bracelets.htm
dogperson
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I've been going back through all my old notes on the information I was given several years back by a family friend of the Tengelsens. Since this thread has gotten quite long, I thought I would put it here in a list, all in one place.
1. The family felt that killer Paul John Knowles was the most likely suspect. He did have a girlfriend in Macon and frequently visited her there. (I assume, when not in prison, for he spent most of his life in and out of prison.) He abducted and killed thirteen-year-old Ima Jean Sanders in 1974 in Warner Robbins when on a trip to see his girlfriend. He later confessed to the crime and her remains have been found, but he remembered her name as being "Alma". The problem is, we have not been able to find out if Knowles was in prison at the time of Carlene's disappearance. The area where Ima Jean's remains was found, I'm told, was about a 30-minute drive from Macon.
2. Carlene was involved with a of civil rights group at the time and did have black friends in a time when the black students at school were very poorly treated. This might have caused ill feelings toward her from those in the community who were against integration of the schools and against civil rights.
3. Her boyfriend was white and he worked at a grocery store in the shopping center where Westgate Mall was located. She stopped by and left a note on his car about looking forward to their date that night. It's not likely she was seeing anyone else; she was very much in love with him, was wearing his class ring, and would not have missed a date with him to do anything else. If his presence at work that afternoon is accounted for, this probably means he was not involved in her disappearance. I don't know who he was other than his first name was Andrew.
4. Carlene's previous boyfriend was the son of a local doctor and when she decided to break up with him she took someone else along with her for support. I don't know if this means she was afraid to break up with him or simply to avoid him maybe making a scene. He did issue a threatening remark, something along the lines of if he couldn't have her nobody could. I don't know whether he was ever looked into as a suspect. I don't know his name.
5. Carlene left home that afternoon to pick up her younger sister from camp, but she left an hour or so early so she could drop by the Westgate Mall. A neighbor waved at her as she drove out of the neighborhood, then later she was seen by some other kids from school at an arcade at the mall. Plus, we know she left the note on her boyfriend's windshield, so we can be certain nothing happened to her between leaving home and reaching the mall. She did invite her brother and older sister to accompany her but both declined, so I don't think she had any plans to run away since she invited them along and didn't take any belongings with her.
6. Local teens at the time often parked in the rear lot. It would have been more secluded but closer to where employees, such as her boyfriend, would have parked. This could be where she was abducted. The person could have approached her at the car or jumped into the car with her very quickly without anyone seeing him.
7. The area where the missing car was located during the night was very visible and well lit. It was found with the doors unlocked, windows down, and a fine layer of red dust on it, indicating it had been driven in an unpaved area. One comment included in some of the police information on Carlene's case mentioned one of the back doors not being fully shut. I don't know exactly what this might mean. Maybe Carlene got back into the car when leaving the mall and her abductor jumped into the backseat with a weapon? Or maybe, after kidnapping her, he assaulted her in the back seat? Then later that night he drove the car back to town and parked it where it was found with the back door still slightly ajar. I still don't understand why he took the risk of bringing the car back to the general area of the mall knowing people would be looking for Carlene by then. I keep thinking he needed to transport himself back to that general location for some reason: his own car was there, he was staying nearby, he lived in the neighborhood, he worked near the mall, etc. Either that or he enjoyed the thrill of taking such a risk.
8. A person with law enforcement who is a family contact on this case once remarked there could have been a cover-up by police in 1972 and that's why Carlene's disappearance was never really investigated. Who would LE be likely to cover for? Someone connected with them? Someone prominent in the community? Or if, as we have had to consider, Carlene's abduction may have been racially motivated, did LE at the time suspect this and simply not care if she perished as a result of her support of civil rights?
9. The Macon Telegraph published a short article that same year about 3 separate incidents of women going missing in the area. I was sent a copy of the very small clipped article but can't find anything online about it and don't know whether the other missing women were ever recovered.
Please note I received all the information listed above from a third party and can't verify anything contained in it. It gives us food for thought but probably gets us no closer to resolution. But I thought it might come in handy for anyone new to the case.
1. The family felt that killer Paul John Knowles was the most likely suspect. He did have a girlfriend in Macon and frequently visited her there. (I assume, when not in prison, for he spent most of his life in and out of prison.) He abducted and killed thirteen-year-old Ima Jean Sanders in 1974 in Warner Robbins when on a trip to see his girlfriend. He later confessed to the crime and her remains have been found, but he remembered her name as being "Alma". The problem is, we have not been able to find out if Knowles was in prison at the time of Carlene's disappearance. The area where Ima Jean's remains was found, I'm told, was about a 30-minute drive from Macon.
2. Carlene was involved with a of civil rights group at the time and did have black friends in a time when the black students at school were very poorly treated. This might have caused ill feelings toward her from those in the community who were against integration of the schools and against civil rights.
3. Her boyfriend was white and he worked at a grocery store in the shopping center where Westgate Mall was located. She stopped by and left a note on his car about looking forward to their date that night. It's not likely she was seeing anyone else; she was very much in love with him, was wearing his class ring, and would not have missed a date with him to do anything else. If his presence at work that afternoon is accounted for, this probably means he was not involved in her disappearance. I don't know who he was other than his first name was Andrew.
4. Carlene's previous boyfriend was the son of a local doctor and when she decided to break up with him she took someone else along with her for support. I don't know if this means she was afraid to break up with him or simply to avoid him maybe making a scene. He did issue a threatening remark, something along the lines of if he couldn't have her nobody could. I don't know whether he was ever looked into as a suspect. I don't know his name.
5. Carlene left home that afternoon to pick up her younger sister from camp, but she left an hour or so early so she could drop by the Westgate Mall. A neighbor waved at her as she drove out of the neighborhood, then later she was seen by some other kids from school at an arcade at the mall. Plus, we know she left the note on her boyfriend's windshield, so we can be certain nothing happened to her between leaving home and reaching the mall. She did invite her brother and older sister to accompany her but both declined, so I don't think she had any plans to run away since she invited them along and didn't take any belongings with her.
6. Local teens at the time often parked in the rear lot. It would have been more secluded but closer to where employees, such as her boyfriend, would have parked. This could be where she was abducted. The person could have approached her at the car or jumped into the car with her very quickly without anyone seeing him.
7. The area where the missing car was located during the night was very visible and well lit. It was found with the doors unlocked, windows down, and a fine layer of red dust on it, indicating it had been driven in an unpaved area. One comment included in some of the police information on Carlene's case mentioned one of the back doors not being fully shut. I don't know exactly what this might mean. Maybe Carlene got back into the car when leaving the mall and her abductor jumped into the backseat with a weapon? Or maybe, after kidnapping her, he assaulted her in the back seat? Then later that night he drove the car back to town and parked it where it was found with the back door still slightly ajar. I still don't understand why he took the risk of bringing the car back to the general area of the mall knowing people would be looking for Carlene by then. I keep thinking he needed to transport himself back to that general location for some reason: his own car was there, he was staying nearby, he lived in the neighborhood, he worked near the mall, etc. Either that or he enjoyed the thrill of taking such a risk.
8. A person with law enforcement who is a family contact on this case once remarked there could have been a cover-up by police in 1972 and that's why Carlene's disappearance was never really investigated. Who would LE be likely to cover for? Someone connected with them? Someone prominent in the community? Or if, as we have had to consider, Carlene's abduction may have been racially motivated, did LE at the time suspect this and simply not care if she perished as a result of her support of civil rights?
9. The Macon Telegraph published a short article that same year about 3 separate incidents of women going missing in the area. I was sent a copy of the very small clipped article but can't find anything online about it and don't know whether the other missing women were ever recovered.
Please note I received all the information listed above from a third party and can't verify anything contained in it. It gives us food for thought but probably gets us no closer to resolution. But I thought it might come in handy for anyone new to the case.
zencompass
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Such a heartbreaking case. I was reading this article and when Carlene's mother said she slept in her clothes for six weeks in case there was
a call it made me cry.
I hope and pray that this case is in the news again as a cold case and is re-investigated.
Bless you for keeping Carlene's memory alive in this thread. You are a wonderful, caring person. Your actions reinforce my belief in humanity.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/crime/article24550369.html
a call it made me cry.
I hope and pray that this case is in the news again as a cold case and is re-investigated.
Bless you for keeping Carlene's memory alive in this thread. You are a wonderful, caring person. Your actions reinforce my belief in humanity.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/crime/article24550369.html
Bootsctr
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Joe Kovac Jr. ‏@joekovacjr · 2h2 hours ago
Carlene's disappearance barely made news. When I first wrote about her in 1999, Joan and her family were beyond gracious, open & kind. (2/3)
Joe Kovac Jr. ‏@joekovacjr · 2h2 hours ago
Joan never lost hope, but didn't let inexplicable loss consume her. Remarkable person. (And huge Braves fan.) (3/3)
http://joekovacjr.blogspot.com/2011/04/carlene-tengelsen-story.html?m=1
Bumping for Foxfire.
Carlene's disappearance barely made news. When I first wrote about her in 1999, Joan and her family were beyond gracious, open & kind. (2/3)
Joe Kovac Jr. ‏@joekovacjr · 2h2 hours ago
Joan never lost hope, but didn't let inexplicable loss consume her. Remarkable person. (And huge Braves fan.) (3/3)
http://joekovacjr.blogspot.com/2011/04/carlene-tengelsen-story.html?m=1
Bumping for Foxfire.
Backwoods
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I share your feelings. This is such sad news to me, just as this has always seemed such a sad case to me -- but I do find comfort to think of Carlene and her mother reunited. I pray for all remaining who loved Carlene, those who were touched by her disappearance and all the long years of wondering.
Backwoods
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dogperson, there was a reporter for The Macon Telegraph, Randall Savage, who intensively covered much of the Paul John Knowles story (1974). Not sure whether he was with that paper in 1972 when Carlene disappeared, but I just bet that he heard things about her case. As recently as this past election, Mr. Savage was still doing the occasional guest spot on Macon's 13WMAZ television news, with political commentary and interviews..
During our earlier discussions about whether Knowles might have been involved in Carlene's disappearance, I did a lot of digging and had always intended to bring some of what I found back here in-depth, but it is complex and confusing (there are conflicting reports about some things in various sources) and I just kept waiting "until" I could fill in some missing information about Knowles
Right now, I have just lost my own mother (she passed away in October) after about 7 years of being her caregiver, and I am going through a very serious depression, so I just am not able right now to follow up on this and thought maybe someone else who has followed this case might like to.
Here's a few items:
.Never could determine for sure whether Knowles could have been in Macon at the time of Carlene's disappearance. He was popping in and out of jail a lot, if I remember correctly, during that time. If he was incarcerated, well, that rules him out...but I have never been able to determine for sure. If, however, he was NOT behind bars...
Knowles had a girlfriend in Macon. In fact, according to a "years later" interview that Randall Savage did, they actually married at one point but she had the marriage annulled. IIRC, she actually first met him in Florida, while she was married to someone else...I do not recall offhand what year that was. I believe she was living in Florida at the time and I do not know WHEN she came to Macon (or possibly came BACK to Macon, as I also do not recall whether she had already lived in Macon). What I DO know is that she was living in Macon during 1974, because Knowles gave her some "gifts" that turned out later to have come from some of his victims. As I understand, she and Knowles weren't exactly "together" at that time but he would "drop in". So we do know that Knowles spent time in Macon, off and on, and probably knew the area rather well.
Where did the girlfriend live and what restaurant did she work at? This is information that I bet Mr. Savage could supply -- he covered the case very intensely and interviewed her both at the time and in later years. I brought the girlfriend's name to this thread once before, but I decided to ask to have it removed (which it was) because I believe she truly did not know what was going on with Knowles. IF Knowles was not incarcerated in June 1972, and especially IF the girlfriend lived and or worked (she was a waitress) in the vicinity of Westgate, I think Knowles is certainly a possibility. (He could have been visiting her and going about the area on foot or may have had his own car, or he could have even borrowed her car with the agreement he would pick her up after work, some scenario like that.)
Something that has really intrigued me: Anybody who has looked at the Knowles case at all knows that he made tapes about his murders, and other matters; they became very controversial and infamous during the legal proceedings that followed his capture. Some feel he included ALL of his murders, that he was strictly a "spree" killer and recounted them all... and he did express a wish to "claim" all his victims, for a wanted notoriety. But it certainly seems possible there MAY have been earlier murders that he did not claim, for various possible reasons. There ARE reports that on at least one occasion he gave an indication that there were "more" than on the tapes -- but whether those reports are accurate, or whether if they are he was telling the truth...well, who knows.
Anyhow, though he had at least two different tape recorders along the way, one of them, the "main" one I think, he apparently bought in Macon during the 1974 spree -- a store clerk identified him as doing so. Some accounts say the store was in downtown Macon, but some say it was at the Zayre store -- which was located in the shopping center down the hill and to the west of Westgate, which ALSO was where the grocery store where Carlene's boyfriend worked was located, I'm pretty sure. That purchase was in 1974, two years after Carlene's disappearance, of course -- but if that purchase WAS at Zayre, it is another indication that he did know that area to some degree.
Maybe someone can see where I'm going with this rambling and maybe contact Mr. Savage to see if he can provide that CRUCIAL info about whether Knowles was behind bars on the VERY DAY that Carlene disappeared ... and if he WASN'T, to see if we can find out the answers to some of the other questions I've brought up.
During our earlier discussions about whether Knowles might have been involved in Carlene's disappearance, I did a lot of digging and had always intended to bring some of what I found back here in-depth, but it is complex and confusing (there are conflicting reports about some things in various sources) and I just kept waiting "until" I could fill in some missing information about Knowles
Right now, I have just lost my own mother (she passed away in October) after about 7 years of being her caregiver, and I am going through a very serious depression, so I just am not able right now to follow up on this and thought maybe someone else who has followed this case might like to.
Here's a few items:
.Never could determine for sure whether Knowles could have been in Macon at the time of Carlene's disappearance. He was popping in and out of jail a lot, if I remember correctly, during that time. If he was incarcerated, well, that rules him out...but I have never been able to determine for sure. If, however, he was NOT behind bars...
Knowles had a girlfriend in Macon. In fact, according to a "years later" interview that Randall Savage did, they actually married at one point but she had the marriage annulled. IIRC, she actually first met him in Florida, while she was married to someone else...I do not recall offhand what year that was. I believe she was living in Florida at the time and I do not know WHEN she came to Macon (or possibly came BACK to Macon, as I also do not recall whether she had already lived in Macon). What I DO know is that she was living in Macon during 1974, because Knowles gave her some "gifts" that turned out later to have come from some of his victims. As I understand, she and Knowles weren't exactly "together" at that time but he would "drop in". So we do know that Knowles spent time in Macon, off and on, and probably knew the area rather well.
Where did the girlfriend live and what restaurant did she work at? This is information that I bet Mr. Savage could supply -- he covered the case very intensely and interviewed her both at the time and in later years. I brought the girlfriend's name to this thread once before, but I decided to ask to have it removed (which it was) because I believe she truly did not know what was going on with Knowles. IF Knowles was not incarcerated in June 1972, and especially IF the girlfriend lived and or worked (she was a waitress) in the vicinity of Westgate, I think Knowles is certainly a possibility. (He could have been visiting her and going about the area on foot or may have had his own car, or he could have even borrowed her car with the agreement he would pick her up after work, some scenario like that.)
Something that has really intrigued me: Anybody who has looked at the Knowles case at all knows that he made tapes about his murders, and other matters; they became very controversial and infamous during the legal proceedings that followed his capture. Some feel he included ALL of his murders, that he was strictly a "spree" killer and recounted them all... and he did express a wish to "claim" all his victims, for a wanted notoriety. But it certainly seems possible there MAY have been earlier murders that he did not claim, for various possible reasons. There ARE reports that on at least one occasion he gave an indication that there were "more" than on the tapes -- but whether those reports are accurate, or whether if they are he was telling the truth...well, who knows.
Anyhow, though he had at least two different tape recorders along the way, one of them, the "main" one I think, he apparently bought in Macon during the 1974 spree -- a store clerk identified him as doing so. Some accounts say the store was in downtown Macon, but some say it was at the Zayre store -- which was located in the shopping center down the hill and to the west of Westgate, which ALSO was where the grocery store where Carlene's boyfriend worked was located, I'm pretty sure. That purchase was in 1974, two years after Carlene's disappearance, of course -- but if that purchase WAS at Zayre, it is another indication that he did know that area to some degree.
Maybe someone can see where I'm going with this rambling and maybe contact Mr. Savage to see if he can provide that CRUCIAL info about whether Knowles was behind bars on the VERY DAY that Carlene disappeared ... and if he WASN'T, to see if we can find out the answers to some of the other questions I've brought up.
Backwoods
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Here is more info and some contact possibilities for long-time journalist Randall Savage, referenced in my post above -- in case anyone at some point wants to follow up:
http://www.13wmaz.com/news/randall-savage/57088319
http://www.13wmaz.com/news/randall-savage/57088319
scriptgirl
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Backwoods, sorry for your loss.
Are all of Carlene's siblings alive? What about her dad?
Are all of Carlene's siblings alive? What about her dad?
Backwoods
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scriptgirl, thank you.
As to your questions, I am not "for sure", but I am thinking that Carlene's dad has passed on but her siblings are living.
ETA: I found Carlene's mother's obituary and see that I was wrong about all Carlene's siblings still living -- her sister Arnelle is not.
http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/di...n-Tengelsen&lc=7134&pid=183260600&mid=7230320
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