GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972

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Is that the same Krispy Kreme that was there in 1972? Because if it is then the only place to park a car is in the Krispy parking lot because the mall was up a hill and there is a intersection at the corner.
Does anyone know where the first dirt road is? I know that most of the roads are paved now. But still I would like for us to see what we could come up with if we say he might have taken her body within a least 30 minute drive North South East and West of the Krispy Kreme. Is anyone up for this?
 
Is that the same Krispy Kreme that was there in 1972? Because if it is then the only place to park a car is in the Krispy parking lot because the mall was up a hill and there is a intersection at the corner.
<respectfully snipped>


puzzleme, I think it is "basically" the same Krispy Kreme, not to say that some remodeling, changes in the parking lot, etc. may not have been done since 1972.

Look back at this post, from dogperson:

I will watch the video on my home computer this evening. My work computer doesn't have speakers so I can't do it right now.
I am trying to upload an attachment of what Westgate Mall looked like with different areas marked out. Let's see if this works. Okay, looks like it did. So I had some help with this from a local who remembers the mall and this is my understanding of the marked areas. The blue dot is the rear parking lot by the Piggly Wiggly. The red dot is the rear parking lot by the Big Apple. The yellow line represents Pio Nino where the vehicle was later found parked across the street by the Krispy Kreme and a tire store. The green line is the Eisenhower/Mill Irons road area and there was supposedly a steep drop-off there. Where the pink line is was also a steep drop-off into undeveloped land. Windows were mainly just in the front so if Carlene parked in one of the lots near the grocery stores it's possibly nobody would have seen her. I'm going thru all my saved info on this case and will upload more as I get it sorted. Maybe this will give a better idea of how the mall and parking lots were laid out.

So the tire store is/was in that area, too. I THINK dogperson is saying that the car may have been parked at the curb along Hightower Road, not sure. It could have been ditched along Pio Nono itself, but I think that would have been noticed very soon -- still possible, though. Perhaps it had not been there very long when Carlene's sister spotted it. I wonder if the engine was still warm ...??!

<respectfully snipped>
Does anyone know where the first dirt road is? I know that most of the roads are paved now. But still I would like for us to see what we could come up with if we say he might have taken her body within a least 30 minute drive North South East and West of the Krispy Kreme. Is anyone up for this?

No, I don't know offhand where the nearest dirt road would be, then or now. In the late 1970s or early 1980s, I had a boyfriend who worked in the circulation dept. of The Telegraph in Macon and I rode his "area" with him a few times, addressing service errors, etc., and I can say pretty confidently that, at that time, there were at least a few back or cross streets within Macon that were not paved.

One thing I can try to do is see if I can come up with an older map of Macon that is detailed enough to show the "lesser" roads and whether they were unimproved. I'll try, might take me a few days.

Beyond Macon, within your 30-minutes'-time radius, there were MANY dirt roads at that time. I lived in an adjacent county and on a dirt road, and 30 minutes would be a reasonable window in which to have arrived -- and there were many other dirt roads nearby me, in 1972, and that's just in my county alone.

BTW, in 1974, Paul John Knowles killed (I guess I should say "allegedly", at least once, since he was never convicted of any murders, because of his death) a woman who lived on just such a dirt road, about 6 or 7 miles away from mine. (Not to get stuck on the Knowles angle ...just saying.)
 
puzzleme, I have not been able to locate a (free) street map of Macon from around 1972 online this evening.

I did find something I found really interesting and that MIGHT be helpful. It's a U.S. Geological Survey map of West Macon that actually dates to 1956 but, I believe, was photo-updated to some degree in 1972. (I see what I'm pretty sure is Westgate on there, so it definitely was updated to some degree after 1956 -- I'm just not sure how complete an update it was.)

I really don't think it will be much help in looking for unpaved roads -- roads aren't the focus of the map and few are labeled actually -- but you can find Pio Nono and Hightower and sort of locate stuff from there. If you know how to read contour lines and such, this is great for telling what the terrain was like. So not so great for "roads" but could be really helpful for answering some other questions.

It has been a long time since I worked much with this sort of map and even being a "semi-local", I was pretty lost when I first started looking at it. Don't know how much I can help in interpreting it, if you need any help, but if you do, let me know and I'll try.

To get the map, click on the link below. I think that will allow you (click open) to get a zip file of a pdf. Then you can save the pdf, if you want to, to your computer -- that's what I did -- to open and peruse as you have time:

http://ims.er.usgs.gov/gda_services/download?item_id=5362816




A fairly simple explanation of contour lines:

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hiking/how-to-read-a-topographic-map2.htm

ETA: In fact, I think I'll like the whole entry on "How to Read a Topographic Map", from which the link just above this is taken:

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hiking/how-to-read-a-topographic-map.htm
 
Another quick comment or two on the topographical map I linked:

From the legend at the bottom of the map, we learn that the purple-shaded areas were revised (but not field-checked) using aerial photographs in 1972. So those areas should be "somewhat as it was" when Carlene disappeared -- lots of purple right near the Westgate area! Other areas may not be reliable for 1972 in many aspects.

Also, some unimproved roads DO show -- see the map legend (I think the roads part is in the lower right corner ...?), though you won't be able to learn the names of them from this map -- and, again, in other than the purple areas, 1956 may be better reflected than 1972.

Still, if you care to dig at it, this map could answer some of the questions.
 
Thanks Backwoods!

I will try to figure this out! It might take me awhile but I will give it a try!
 
dogperson, do you happen to know if this UID has ever been looked at for Carlene? I just happened to see these remains referenced in another WS thread:

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/11111

Says "possibly historic?" but I don't know...

This is not terribly far from Macon.
 
dogperson, do you happen to know if this UID has ever been looked at for Carlene? I just happened to see these remains referenced in another WS thread:

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/11111

Says "possibly historic?" but I don't know...

This is not terribly far from Macon.

This is the first time I've seen this one. I have never submitted this UID for Carlene. It looks like they have taken a sample to test for DNA but it hasn't been completed. If Carlene's family DNA doesn't get into CODIS I'm afraid she will never get matched against anyone. Sorry, I've been away from WS for a few days, we were getting some home improvement projects done this week.
 
Just a thought: I am not from that area but read the entire post. My first question: since the car was found in Krispy Kreme parkling lot, was the employees for that place questioned? Meaning could one of them have gotten off work, took Carlene and returned the car to that parking area since that was where their car was. Another: there was no finger prints, could in all the time that the car was missing, could it have been washed or detailed in a way to get rid of that. It might still have been dusty since there was construction going on in the area.

Just some random questions that crossed my mind.
 
Just a thought: I am not from that area but read the entire post. My first question: since the car was found in Krispy Kreme parkling lot, was the employees for that place questioned? Meaning could one of them have gotten off work, took Carlene and returned the car to that parking area since that was where their car was. Another: there was no finger prints, could in all the time that the car was missing, could it have been washed or detailed in a way to get rid of that. It might still have been dusty since there was construction going on in the area.

Just some random questions that crossed my mind.

4SAM, we don't know that it was IN the Krispy Kreme parking lot -- seems it may have been parked at a nearby curb.

We also don't know who may have been questioned <sigh> or whether the fingerprinting turned up no unexpected prints or LE found unexpected ones that weren't matched to anybody.
 
This is the first time I've seen this one. I have never submitted this UID for Carlene. It looks like they have taken a sample to test for DNA but it hasn't been completed. If Carlene's family DNA doesn't get into CODIS I'm afraid she will never get matched against anyone. Sorry, I've been away from WS for a few days, we were getting some home improvement projects done this week.

Oh -- I was not remembering that the DNA was not in CODIS. That does change the outlook for our efforts, doesn't it ...

The info on that UID mentions that the area has been used for excavating sand for many years and that the skeletal remains were found about three feet underneath the sand, I believe.

What got me to thinking -- I know that close to my own area there are "sand pits" that have been around for many years, and some of those pits fill with water that, especially in the past, became a popular-though-forbidden hangout and swimming spot for some "adventurous" folks, mostly teens I think. I was wondering if something similar might be true for the area where the remains were found. In other words, would this spot have been known to and used by some persons for other than the excavation purposes.
 
This is the first time I've seen this one. I have never submitted this UID for Carlene. It looks like they have taken a sample to test for DNA but it hasn't been completed. If Carlene's family DNA doesn't get into CODIS I'm afraid she will never get matched against anyone. Sorry, I've been away from WS for a few days, we were getting some home improvement projects done this week.

Also, on that UID, a skull was found; on dental, it says "charting is available and will be entered later". I am very new at all this -- is it reasonable to think that means that there were at least some teeth present? How long is "later", usually? (I know there may not be an easy answer to that one!)
 
Linking a county map of Georgia:

http://geology.com/county-map/georgia.shtml


Find Bibb County (Macon), pretty much in the middle -- the "heart of Georgia", they call it.

Then "step" northwest, to Monroe County.

Then "step" back east, to that little border Monroe County shares with Jasper County.

The UID (skeletal remains) was found in 1997 "off Highway 83 along a logging road in Jasper Co. very near the Monroe Co. border."

That's mighty close by.

If I have time tomorrow, I will try to map a general area for this.
 
I *think* the map I've linked probably is at least kind of the general area we are talking about with that particular UID:

http://georgia.hometownlocator.com/maps/feature-map,ftc,2,fid,330682,n,ocmulgee%20river%20trail.cfm

The red flag marks the Ocmulgee River Trail, which is in Jasper County. Down below that, you can see Highway 83.

The green-shaded area is NOT an outline of a particular county but marks something like a wildlife area -- but I believe the Ocmulgee River is pretty much the county boundary along there where Monroe County and Jasper County border each other a bit -- so if you trace Hwy. 83 on west to the other side of the Ocmulgee, that's Monroe County.

Recall that this UID was found "off Highway 83 along a logging road in Jasper Co. very near the Monroe Co. border."
 
I am not sure how long it takes for them to enter the dental charting. I would think that means there have to be some natural teeth. Otherwise it usually says "endentulous" for no teeth, or it might say "dentures". We know Carlene had braces so if the UID is her it should have a full set of teeth plus braces. I don't know if she had her wisdom teeth yet, probably not because don't they usually come later? I don't know because I was a weirdo whose wisdom teeth didn't come in til my 30s so I have nothing to go by on that. I wish there was an email or an easier way to contact the FBI person listed for this case. Somebody needs to take a look at this UID and also see why Carlene's DNA doesn't seem to be in CODIS. I don't feel comfortable calling an FBI person because I have never contacted LE by telephone before and have no idea what to say or how to go about it. There is an address, but letter writing seems so outdated.
 
Backwoods,

Don't feel bad I haven't contacted LE before either! My grandfather was sheriff for nearly 4 decades in the county I live in and we were taught that LE was something to be revered! So I feel I might be wasting their time! That's kinda crazy I know but that's just me ;-)
 
Backwoods,

Don't feel bad I haven't contacted LE before either! My grandfather was sheriff for nearly 4 decades in the county I live in and we were taught that LE was something to be revered! So I feel I might be wasting their time! That's kinda crazy I know but that's just me ;-)

I'm afraid of sounding like a crazy person if I call LE! We didn't call them where I grew up either in southwest VA. Around there we called them "the Law" and you didn't call "the Law" unless somebody was about to be killed right that minute or something. (haha)

What would we tell the FBI lady if we contact her? One thing we need to do is find out why DNA doesn't seem to be in CODIS and how to get it there. Plus check into this UID. Somehow I have more confidence in the FBI contact than the local sheriff's dept considering how badly the case was handled the first time around. Not that they would handle it badly this time, just that a case this cold probably wouldn't be a priority and they probably don't have the time or manpower to do much with it.
 
dogperson and puzzleme, we all sound like The Three Mess-keteers, here!

Don't worry, we'll figure out a way to go about this (she says, encouragingly...).

A couple more thoughts about the Jasper Co. UID:

First and most importantly, I agree, this really needs to be checked, if only because of the nearness to Macon.

But a few things to note:

The remains were found in Sept. 1997 and yet the NamUs case report says "Date created" is this March (March 2013). I am not practiced at all this enough to know whether that refers to the NamUs entry or some other "report" that precedes the NamUs entry, but at any rate there was a LONG gap of time there ... and I am wondering, why?

Could it be that the remains really are most likely to be "historic" (I'm thinking, possibly Native American?) as the report says they "possibly" are -- maybe this was the accepted idea for quite a while and now they don't don't feel quite so sure (possibly because of a "second look" by someone, advances in technology, more sophisticated DNA techniques), so they're putting it out there?

I feel that their being labeled "possibly historic" pretty much rules out that braces were found or signs of braces were noted (... but I don't think that alone would mean this is not a possible for this case. Perps do stuff to teeth and, I imagine, braces, sometimes... and time and conditions at the site could have effects, too, of course). I do get the idea from the report that some teeth may be present, at least -- I hope they do enter the charting.

I also notice that under Race and under Ethnicity, the notation is: Other. Hmmm, not sure what that means. Could it just be that at the time the report was put on NamUs, they were not yet sure or maybe there are not enough remains to make a firm determination, before DNA is completed? But "other" seems an odd term, in that case -- why not "undetermined"?

They have minimum age as 12 and maximum as 17, so Carlene would be close to the end of the range (still within it, certainly). We're not sure what all they have -- skull, or at least part of one, we know, and possibly teeth, and "something else", we really don't know what. So maybe they are aging from skull bones, dentition, possibly some larger, other bones.

Three feet below the surface of the ground sure sounds to me as if it could have been a "hasty burial" ...but of course there are other ways the bones could have come to be there, especially near water (Ocmulgee?), where flooding could occur.

Finally, the NamUs profile sets the "identification potential" as "low" ... wonder why? Because they have only partial skeletal remains ... because of the possibility/probability the remains ARE "historic" ... because the bones are in poor condition and unlikely to yield a good DNA sample...?

Just some thoughts on the UID.
 
Now, I just want to ask a few things about Carlene and her profile, just to clarify some things for myself:

dogperson, you posted a ways back:

My understanding is that her mom and siblings are still living but that her dad has passed. I believe it was on the NAMUS website that I saw that her DNA is on file but I have noticed that she never seems to be on any rule-out lists for unidentifieds. I personally have submitted several UIDs thru Doe Network but all have been ruled out thru dentals, etc. but never DNA. How can we be sure the DNA is in CODIS? There are a lot of UIDs with similar physical descriptions that you would think they would have run against Carlene if her DNA is in CODIS, so I wonder why she's never on any of the rule-out lists.

You're right, NamUs for Carlene says, under DNA "Sample submitted Tests Complete".

On Dental, NamUs has: Charting is currently not available.

Under Physical, NamUs does note "chipped front tooth" ... but I don't see anything about braces!

Now, here's Carlene's Doe Network:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2837dfga.htmlNow

I see the chipped tooth and braces mentioned.

Now, what you are saying is that, despite what NamUs states re: DNA, you are worried that the DNA is not really in CODIS because you have never seen any ruleouts for Carlene based on DNA -- correct?

And, to take it a step further -- you are also saying that you have submitted some UIDS through The Doe Network for comparison to Carlene and they were ruled out through Dentals? If that is the case -- are they ruling out on "Dentals" without any charting for Carlene ... in other words, just on the "chipped front tooth" and "braces" descriptors alone?

(Just trying to get my bearings here, making sure I understand enough not to sound like a complete idiot if contacting someone!)

Does anyone reading here "know" any WSer who does a lot of Unidentified sleuthing? Maybe we could ask someone like that to take a look at all this and advise us? What do y'all think?
 

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