GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #10

[3doglady]

This was my whole point.

Patterson only states that the dogs DID NOT ENTER any of the other apts in the complex besides those three that were found to be positive hits for human remains.

I'm not questioning why the dogs went in those three apts and no others. I'm not questioning their methods. The simple fact is that the dogs hit in EVERY apt they entered. The simple fact is the dogs did not search a single apt of the friends. A good defense attorney is going to cast doubt on the validity of those hits because the dogs did not enter even one apt and NOT hit so how is a jury going to judge the hits? Also look at where the hits were inside SM's apt. The dogs did not hit until they got to the BACK of his apt.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

This was my whole point.



I'm not questioning why the dogs went in those three apts and no others. I'm not questioning their methods. The simple fact is that the dogs hit in EVERY apt they entered. The simple fact is the dogs did not search a single apt of the friends. A good defense attorney is going to cast doubt on the validity of those hits because the dogs did not enter even one apt and NOT hit so how is a jury going to judge the hits? Also look at where the hits were inside SM's apt. The dogs did not hit until they got to the BACK of his apt.

Yes, this is where my confusion is too. I guess I am not sure what is meant by "hit." Does it mean that they alerted there? That's what I had been interpreting it as...as if they were following a scent trail that culminated or was most intense in the back, then they laid down there to alert. But you know I am not even sure that the whole "scent trail" terminology is appropriate for cadaver or decomp dogs. As I stated above, I am more familiar with mantrailing bloodhounds who do follow a scent trail - that's where I am getting that term.

 

[Oriah]

I snipped your post for space. BBI Buford specifically asked if apts other than those 3 were searched and Patterson said no. None of the friends or other residents apts were searched according to Patterson's testimony. I think that's an honest representation unless you are saying Patterson lied on the stand. The problem I see is that all 3 apts had hits so there was no "control". No one knows how accurate the dogs were because they hit everywhere they went. If the dogs had searched a few of the friends apts that were also in LG's apt and did not hit that would give validity to the hits in SM's apt.

Can someone brief me on what type of dog(s) and with what training we are referring to?

Respectfully, a 'control' of this sort should be unnecessary.
Is the issue more of a drop?

 

[pearl]

I'm trying to remember this clearly from my childhood a long, long time ago. My daddy had blood hounds and black and tan coon hounds. The blood hounds were borrowed by our local prison when looking for escapees. One of the blood hounds was considered a better tracker because he could air track and the other had to ground track. Think I'm getting this right. I don't really know much about cadaver dogs. If a blood hound can track a person by air, they could possible track the trail that a cadaver was carried by air. If this is so, the dogs may have led LE to the 3 apartments. I don't know if it would be the decomp scent in general that would cause a dog to alert or if it has to be the scent of something the cadaver touches. Just a thought.

 

[Oriah]

This was my whole point.



I'm not questioning why the dogs went in those three apts and no others. I'm not questioning their methods. The simple fact is that the dogs hit in EVERY apt they entered. The simple fact is the dogs did not search a single apt of the friends. A good defense attorney is going to cast doubt on the validity of those hits because the dogs did not enter even one apt and NOT hit so how is a jury going to judge the hits? Also look at where the hits were inside SM's apt. The dogs did not hit until they got to the BACK of his apt.

3doglady- sorry, I am catching up here- are you saying that the dog(s) were brought to only three apartments (restricted from all others) and then alerted at the rear of the apartments?

 

[3doglady]

Yes, this is where my confusion is too. I guess I am not sure what is meant by "hit." Does it mean that they alerted there? That's what I had been interpreting it as...as if they were following a scent trail that culminated or was most intense in the back, then they laid down there to alert. But you know I am not even sure that the whole "scent trail" terminology is appropriate for cadaver or decomp dogs. As I stated above, I am more familiar with mantrailing bloodhounds who do follow a scent trail - that's where I am getting that term.

My understanding is the dog alerted on the concrete outside SM's door. Some dogs lay down or sit to signal a hit in the way they have been trained. Once inside the dog did not signal a hit until he got to the back bedroom and bath. They do not follow a trail. There was a video in the Anthony case. I'll try to find it.

 

[3doglady]

3doglady- sorry, I am catching up here- are you saying that the dog(s) were brought to only three apartments (restricted from all others) and then alerted at the rear of the apartments?

The dogs were taken all around BH but only entered 3 apts. LG's, SM's and the empty apt under LG's. I don't know where the dogs hit in LG's or the other apt. The dog hit on the concrete outside SM's door. The dog also hit in SM's back bedroom and bath. There were several friends inside LG's apt the night before along with SM. The dogs were not taken to the friend's apts.

 

[Backwoods]

Just an observation and not from any expertise: It seems to me that if the dogs were air-scenting and detected a scent from outside of a closed door (we don't know that it was closed, but assume for a minute it was), they might "alert" somewhat at that point to indicate that they were detecting something from inside. Then, once the obstacle was removed (door was opened), they would continue to the major sources of the scent that they had been able to detect from outside the closed door.

 

[bessie]

Can someone brief me on what type of dog(s) and with what training we are referring to?

Respectfully, a 'control' of this sort should be unnecessary.
Is the issue more of a drop?

HRD dogs, Oriah, but I don't know any more about their training.

 

[3doglady]

Here's a cadaver dog video.
History Flight cadaver dog search on USMC cemetery 27 Tarawa - YouTube

 

[3doglady]

Just an observation and not from any expertise: It seems to me that if the dogs were air-scenting and detected a scent from outside of a closed door (we don't know that it was closed, but assume for a minute it was), they might "alert" somewhat at that point to indicate that they were detecting something from inside. Then, once the obstacle was removed (door was opened), they would continue to the major sources of the scent that they had been able to detect from outside the closed door.

Patterson said the dog hit on the concrete outside the door (not the door) but he's not a dog handler so that may just be his interpretation.

 

[Backwoods]

Patterson said the dog hit on the concrete outside the door (not the door) but he's not a dog handler so that may just be his interpretation.

It does seem likely significant that he worded it that way, though, you're right.

 

[Backwoods]

Was anyone else surprised to learn at the hearing that the group of Lauren's friends taken (or sent) to the department for interviewing on the day her torso was found was pretty large, 15 or so?

I had been thinking it was probably mostly the group that had "searched", and was thinking 4 or 5 folks at most. I guess maybe other of her friends had gotten word that she was missing and showed up by then.

 

[southern_comfort]

3doglady- sorry, I am catching up here- are you saying that the dog(s) were brought to only three apartments (restricted from all others) and then alerted at the rear of the apartments?

Oriah!!! :cheer: :hug:

Thanks for coming... looking forward to your insight!

 

[Givsmetheshivers]

Does any of this help?
http://www.k9sardog.com/crimescenesearch.html

 

[Oriah]

The dogs were taken all around BH but only entered 3 apts. LG's, SM's and the empty apt under LG's. I don't know where the dogs hit in LG's or the other apt. The dog hit on the concrete outside SM's door. The dog also hit in SM's back bedroom and bath. There were several friends inside LG's apt the night before along with SM. The dogs were not taken to the friend's apts.

What was this particular dogs' method of alerting?

 

[Oriah]

Does any of this help?
http://www.k9sardog.com/crimescenesearch.html

Ummm, not really. That would be HO's site.

 

[Oriah]

The dogs were taken all around BH but only entered 3 apts. LG's, SM's and the empty apt under LG's. I don't know where the dogs hit in LG's or the other apt. The dog hit on the concrete outside SM's door. The dog also hit in SM's back bedroom and bath. There were several friends inside LG's apt the night before along with SM. The dogs were not taken to the friend's apts.

How did the dog specifically alert to the concrete outside SM's door?

 

[Backwoods]

Oriah, sounds like you have expertise to share? Great!

One thing -- some of the other posters may know for sure, but I don't, whether the dogs brought in for the first search were S&R dogs also trained in HRD work or dogs trained exclusively for HRD.

 

[Backwoods]

How did the dog specifically alert to the concrete outside SM's door?

I am not sure that we know.... Anybody?