GA - Troy Davis fails to prove his innocence to Supreme Court

[Shecky]

That is exactly how I feel about it. I was sitting here telling my mom last night how cruel it seemed that he knew when he was going to die and that there would be no chance for him to save himself, or defend himself, strapped to a gurney and with his murder being carried out with the power and the strength of the state behind it. And I thought of his poor family, who were allowed to spend time with him on his final day and would have to look their relative in the face and tell him their last goodbye, knowing that he would be dead later that night despite being completely healthy.

I completely agree.

I've watched two people die within the past seven months, my mom and my mom-in-law. My mom passed of cancer and my mom-in-law was taken off of life support after a severe heart attack which left her brain dead. It was a relief when they passed, because I knew there was no coming back and I wanted their pain to end. I cannot imagine watching a perfectly healthy loved one being strapped down and put to death by the state. It's wrong, and I pray God will have mercy on this world for supporting it.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Troy had an Evidentiary Hearing June 2010. The Judge made it a point to instruct the Defense regarding recanted and new testimony implicating Sylvester Coles. Unless the defense put Coles on the stand, the new testimony would be considered hearsay and he would decide whether or not to allow it.

The defense chose not to call Coles to the stand.

Why??

 

[HRCODEPINK]

I completely agree.

I've watched two people die within the past seven months, my mom and my mom-in-law. My mom passed of cancer and my mom-in-law was taken off of life support after a severe heart attack which left her brain dead. It was a relief when they passed, because I knew there was no coming back and I wanted their pain to end. I cannot imagine watching a perfectly healthy loved one being strapped down and put to death by the state. It's wrong, and I pray God will have mercy on this world for supporting it.

:hug: I'm so sorry.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Troy had an Evidentiary Hearing June 2010. The Judge made it a point to instruct the Defense regarding recanted and new testimony implicating Sylvester Coles. Unless the defense put Coles on the stand, the new testimony would be considered hearsay and he would decide whether or not to allow it.

The defense chose not to call Coles to the stand.

Why??

Forgive me if I have little faith in the original court doing the right thing. Especially in a case where there is so much police corruption alleged. I don't know why they didn't question Coles. Perhaps he could not be found, or they were protecting the 17 or so witnesses who had since come forward. I just don't know. But I would rather put my faith in evidence than in the powers that be when there is evidence that anyone on the state side has not done everything on the up and up.

In fact, I tend to not believe anyone on either side--prosecution or defense--when there is a claim that something hasn't been done right. I would rather put my faith in my education and experience and my ability to look at the evidence. Being that there was no physical evidence here there is little to go on. When you add in the statements of those who potentially put their lives at risk to come forward, I see no good that could come from the execution of Troy Davis last night.

ETA: I would like to mention here that I have a family full of police officers (who try to always do the right thing) and my grandmother was murdered for less than $14 by the kid who cut her lawn. She would have given him the money or the shirt off of her back if he had asked, but he said he needed money and didn't know how else to get it, so these things are not something that I take lightly at all.

Remember, an Evidentiary hearing is not a new trial. It is simply a request that the trial court look at the evidence and decide if they can have a new trial. When the evidence knocks every shred of previous evidence against the defendant out, that leaves little to try him with.

 

[belimom]

I'm wondering if Red was a police informant and they didn't want to lose him, perhaps they were in the midst of a big investigation, and so Troy took the fall.

Very possible.

Someone I knew in college was murdered (Jennifer Stone, Athens, GA) her senior year. If you google enough, you can find that the person who pawned her camera was never really questioned, and neither were others who were implicated. To make a long story short, from everything I can find - and it has been 20 years or so - they won't investigate or prosecute because the suspects are all part of an informant circles with the local LE/lawyers. One of them reportedly lived in a home paid for by one of the attorneys. Of course this is all hearsay, but it all makes sense when I stand back and look at the big picture. Sickening.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Still digging. I have found that Red Coles was at the evidentiary hearing, but according to what I am seeing, the defense was not permitted to question him. Still digging for clarification and will post what I find on the reasons.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Forgive me if I have little faith in the original court doing the right thing. Especially in a case where there is so much police corruption alleged. I don't know why they didn't question Coles. Perhaps he could not be found, or they were protecting the 17 or so witnesses who had since come forward. I just don't know. But I would rather put my faith in evidence than in the powers that be when there is evidence that anyone on the state side has not done everything on the up and up.

In fact, I tend to not believe anyone on either side--prosecution or defense--when there is a claim that something hasn't been done right. I would rather put my faith in my education and experience and my ability to look at the evidence. Being that there was no physical evidence here there is little to go on. When you add in the statements of those who potentially put their lives at risk to come forward, I see no good that could come from the execution of Troy Davis last night.

ETA: I would like to mention here that I have a family full of police officers (who try to always do the right thing) and my grandmother was murdered for less than $14 by the kid who cut her lawn. She would have given him the money or the shirt off of her back if he had asked, but he said he needed money and didn't know how else to get it, so these things are not something that I take lightly at all.

Remember, an Evidentiary hearing is not a new trial. It is simply a request that the trial court look at the evidence and decide if they can have a new trial. When the evidence knocks every shred of previous evidence against the defendant out, that leaves little to try him with.

Coles was at the Hearing. The State knew the defense had affadavits and witnesses ready to blame Coles. Yet the Defense had not subpeonaed Coles to testify. So the State had him there and the defense chose not to question him.

The physical evidence was there. Troy had already shot Michael Cooper at the pool party. The shell casing at the first shooting matched the ones from the second shooting.

I do not believe Troy Davis was innocent.

 

[believe09]

Why is the media continually reporting that there was no physical evidence?

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Coles was at the Hearing. The State knew the defense had affadavits and witnesses ready to blame Coles. Yet the Defense had not subpeonaed Coles to testify. So the State had him there and the defense chose not to question him.

The physical evidence was there. Troy had already shot Michael Cooper at the pool party. The shell casing at the first shooting matched the ones from the second shooting.

I do not believe Troy Davis was innocent.

A member of the GBI looked at the ballistics reports and said it was flawed. He also examined the bullets removed from both men and said that the bullets themselves were not similar.

I am now curious as to whether Coles was there and not called, or not there at all.

"The judge interrupted the defense at the point asking if they were going to talk about Coles and ask questions about Coles then why don't they bring Coles in. Defense attorney Stephen Marsh said it was pointless to subpoena Coles since he would not admit to the murder.

Moore said they never know what Coles might say under cross-examination. After an objection on the basis of hearsay from the state, Moore agreed it was hearsay but allowed the testimony to continue, although noting it was unlikely it would carry any weight in his final ruling."

http://www.wtoc.com/global/story.asp?s=12699354

"Of the two witnesses who have not contradicted their trial testimony, one (Steven Sanders) could only identify Troy Davis at trial, two years after he told police that he “wouldn’t know the shooter again if I saw him.” The other is Sylvester Coles, whose recantation would implicate himself. "

http://www.naacp.org/pages/troy-davis-a-case-for-clemency

I understand your position, however I cannot find anything that is not suspect in this case (including the ballistics report and casing evidence), and therefore, I cannot support what happened last night. As I have said over and over, I do not know if Troy Davis was guilty or not. But there is enough doubt in my mind that I don't see why life without parole could not have been an option.

The state's own witness against Troy Davis who did the ballistics said that the casing were similar but there was doubt:

" A ballistics expert testified at the trial that the .38 calibre bullet that killed Officer McPhail could possibly have been fired from the same gun that wounded Michael Cooper, although he admitted that he had "some doubt" about this."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/library/...b6-11dd-a329-2f46302a8cc6/amr510232007en.html

When taking a person's life in the name of the people, there should never be any doubt. Especially about the only piece of physical evidence connecting the defendant to the crime.

 

[belimom]

(snip)

The state's own witness against Troy Davis who did the ballistics said that the casing were similar but there was doubt:

" A ballistics expert testified at the trial that the .38 calibre bullet that killed Officer McPhail could possibly have been fired from the same gun that wounded Michael Cooper, although he admitted that he had "some doubt" about this."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/library/...b6-11dd-a329-2f46302a8cc6/amr510232007en.html

When taking a person's life in the name of the people, there should never be any doubt. Especially about the only piece of physical evidence connecting the defendant to the crime.

I believe the 'flawed' and "possible" ballistics link is the only physical evidence they had. My question: even if from the same weapon, who pulled the trigger?!?

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Why is the media continually reporting that there was no physical evidence?

Because after the ballistics report was found to be not so solid, that left no physical evidence.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Why is the media continually reporting that there was no physical evidence?

The same reason they say '7 of the 9 witnesses' recanted. There were 34 witnesses for the State.

I wonder why they never talk about the bloody shorts found in his Mothers dryer. Must have been relevant since the defense fought to keep them put of the trial. Too bad the blood was too degraded to test by the time technology was available.

Why did Troy's sister take him to Atlanta in the middle of the night after Officer MacPhail was murdered? And why did it take him 4 days to surrender to police when he knew they were looking for him?

Why in June 2010 did Troy not take the stand to clear his name?

And I do realize this was a hearing to determine if he could get a new trial.

 

[indicajane]

I believe Troy Davis was guilty.

He was on a rampage that night, he already had shot a man IN THE FACE, with a 38.

You know, all Troy Davis would have had to do, if he was innocent, was produce the weapon from the first shooting. The gun that was used to shoot Michael IN THE FACE and causing him perm brain damage. They could have tested Troy's gun, and if he was innocent, he would have been cleared.

I don't put much stock in the recanting. It happens all the time, I was speaking to my brother-in-law about this case the other day, and he commented he was surprised it didn't happen more often. The statute of limitations for perjury had run out, and these folks didn't need to be afraid of getting jailtime or fines for lying under oath,, if that's what they did. All of their alleged "recantations" (which for the record, the majority of them didn't say it wasn't Troy and was in fact someone else, just that they "didn't really remember", which isn't that odd considering it's been over 20 years) were examined by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court gave Troy a stay of a year while they examined every aspect of this trial and crime to see if there was any mistakes or doubts of Troy's guilt. they found nothing, because in he was found to be guilty, and there was nothing that pointed to his innocence. Nothing. I heard the prosecutor on our local radio station the other day, and he said that he believed that Troy Davis would have been found guilty without ANY of the eye witness testimony.

And it wasn't just 9 witnesses who spoke for the prosecution. There were 34. Family and friends who testified against Troy. He was not a good man. He was a bad man. A man who waved around guns. A man who shot innocent people. A man who shot a cop, who was had a new baby and was trying to save up some extra money.

I'm tired of hearing accusations of a set up. Do you really think that the Prosecutors, the Judges, the Jury (which was made up of 7 african americans, and 5 whites), and the Supreme Court of both Georgia and the US all were conspiring against some lowlife criminal from a small town in Georgia? To protect (allegedly) some other lowlife criminal from the same small town? Really? You think that there was a backroom meeting 20 years ago that said, "Let's frame Troy, to protect Red?" Um, sure. Someone said because maybe he was an informant? Why do I feel like I'm in the twilight zone?

People get off death row because there are questions in regards to their guilt every year. All the time. Troy has had the best lawyers at this disposal the last few years. He has had money and media support. He has had the Vatican, Amnesity International, and the NAACP behind him. He had 22 years to prove to the courts he was innocent, and the last year to prove to the Supreme Court. With all that backing him, he failed. He failed not because of some weird conspiracy to save Red (???!!!) Who the defense DIDN'T EVEN CALL TO THE STAND EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SITTING IN THE COURTROOM, he failed because Troy Davis killed, in cold blood and with a smile on his face, a true hero. A man working to protect the helpless, a homeless drunk man, from getting beat on by a couple of punks. That is the true victim in this story. The only victim.

 

[belimom]

(snip)

You know, all Troy Davis would have had to do, if he was innocent, was produce the weapon from the first shooting. The gun that was used to shoot Michael IN THE FACE and causing him perm brain damage. They could have tested Troy's gun, and if he was innocent, he would have been cleared.

(snip)

Sylvester "Redd" Coles admitted to owning a .38 also. When asked if LE could look at it, he claimed he didn't have it anymore. Coles was the first one to point the finger at Davis.

I don't *know* who is guilty/not guilty here, but the fact that there was no weapon produced by either one of these men is troublesome. Enough to lay off the death penalty. IMHO

 

[HRCODEPINK]

I believe Troy Davis was guilty.

He was on a rampage that night, he already had shot a man IN THE FACE, with a 38.

You know, all Troy Davis would have had to do, if he was innocent, was produce the weapon from the first shooting. The gun that was used to shoot Michael IN THE FACE and causing him perm brain damage. They could have tested Troy's gun, and if he was innocent, he would have been cleared.

I don't put much stock in the recanting. It happens all the time, I was speaking to my brother-in-law about this case the other day, and he commented he was surprised it didn't happen more often. The statute of limitations for perjury had run out, and these folks didn't need to be afraid of getting jailtime or fines for lying under oath,, if that's what they did. All of their alleged "recantations" (which for the record, the majority of them didn't say it wasn't Troy and was in fact someone else, just that they "didn't really remember", which isn't that odd considering it's been over 20 years) were examined by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court gave Troy a stay of a year while they examined every aspect of this trial and crime to see if there was any mistakes or doubts of Troy's guilt. they found nothing, because in he was found to be guilty, and there was nothing that pointed to his innocence. Nothing. I heard the prosecutor on our local radio station the other day, and he said that he believed that Troy Davis would have been found guilty without ANY of the eye witness testimony.

And it wasn't just 9 witnesses who spoke for the prosecution. There were 34. Family and friends who testified against Troy. He was not a good man. He was a bad man. A man who waved around guns. A man who shot innocent people. A man who shot a cop, who was had a new baby and was trying to save up some extra money.

I'm tired of hearing accusations of a set up. Do you really think that the Prosecutors, the Judges, the Jury (which was made up of 7 african americans, and 5 whites), and the Supreme Court of both Georgia and the US all were conspiring against some lowlife criminal from a small town in Georgia? To protect (allegedly) some other lowlife criminal from the same small town? Really? You think that there was a backroom meeting 20 years ago that said, "Let's frame Troy, to protect Red?" Um, sure. Someone said because maybe he was an informant? Why do I feel like I'm in the twilight zone?

People get off death row because there are questions in regards to their guilt every year. All the time. Troy has had the best lawyers at this disposal the last few years. He has had money and media support. He has had the Vatican, Amnesity International, and the NAACP behind him. He had 22 years to prove to the courts he was innocent, and the last year to prove to the Supreme Court. With all that backing him, he failed. He failed not because of some weird conspiracy to save Red (???!!!) Who the defense DIDN'T EVEN CALL TO THE STAND EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SITTING IN THE COURTROOM, he failed because Troy Davis killed, in cold blood and with a smile on his face, a true hero. A man working to protect the helpless, a homeless drunk man, from getting beat on by a couple of punks. That is the true victim in this story. The only victim.

I'm really kind of tired tonight, so I am not going to respond to any of this tonight (some of which I have already responded to with facts and links) but I will be happy to take a look at the things that I have no looked up already tomorrow. I truly do hope to find something that makes me more comfortable with this execution, because as of now, I am not comfortable with it at all.

However, the reason for my response is because you mention here that Michael Cooper (who was not walked up to and shot in the face, but was in a car that Davis allegedly shot at and the bullet bounced around and lodged in his jaw--not okay, but not quite what "shot in the face" sounds like) was permanently brain damaged. Can you provide a link for this, as I have not seen this fact in anything that I have read thus far.

ETA: Not being snarky. Genuinely curious and wanting to see all of the facts.

 

[belimom]

(snip)

However, the reason for my response is because you mention here that Michael Cooper (who was not walked up to and shot in the face, but was in a car that Davis allegedly shot at and the bullet bounced around and lodged in his jaw--not okay, but not quite was "shot in the face" sounds like) was permanently brain damaged. Can you provide a link for this, as I have not seen this fact in anything that I have read thus far.

ETA: Not being snarky. Genuinely curious and wanting to see all of the facts.

bbm

Hope it's okay if I jump in here... :seeya:

My brother is an attorney in Georgia and mentioned to me also that Michael Cooper was left brain damaged. I have not read it anywhere myself, but I do recall him saying that.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

bbm

Hope it's okay if I jump in here... :seeya:

My brother is an attorney in Georgia and mentioned to me also that Michael Cooper was left brain damaged. I have not read it anywhere myself, but I do recall him saying that.

I would like to see this, because everything that I am finding about Cooper says that he did not know who shot him and I even found one thing that says that he testified FOR Troy at the hearing on the aggravated assault (not citing it here until I can find something to back it up because it is not from what I would consider a relevant source, but I have to look at irrelevant sources in order to get pointed in the direction of the relevant sources, if that makes sense) and that it was the bullet casings being a "match" that they piggy backed that got him convicted in that crime. Like it wasn't that they figured it out from the party to the BK, but in reverse. I am going to see what I can do about getting my hands on the relevant part of he trial transcripts. I want to see documents or reports citing documents.

No disrespect to you or your brother. I do believe that he may have heard that. Just that I have seen a lot of inaccuracies that don't match docs or papers and reports that reference docs and I am wondering where people are getting this information.

ETA: And it is absolutely okay (at least with me) for you to jump in. That's what we are all here for right? To find the truth in these things? Also I really hope that no one thinks that I am being snarky or ugly or argumentative because that is not my intention. If I can see something official or somewhat official that makes me feel comfortable about this execution, I would be really relieved. I am just not finding it and I could use all the help I can get. I'd like to be able to sleep peacefully after all of this.

 

[indicajane]

Thanks HRcodepink, I was just going to say that I read he had brain damage in this thread, but in many of the news reports, the injury Michael Cooper suffered was to his face, not some random bullet shot at a moving car and "accidently" struck Michael in some more innocent (?) location. The car was specifically targeted, according to witnesses.http://www.wpxi.com/news/29250894/detail.html

http://crime.about.com/od/murder/a/The-Shooting-Of-Officer-Mark-Macphail.htm

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-09-18/justice/georgia.davis.execution_1_parole-board-police-officer-appeal-from-death-row-inmate?_s=PM:CRIME


all of those links from pretty main stream media state that Michael Cooper was shot in the face.

The same type of weapon used to shoot the police officer.

i too have read the ballistic reports. The bullet taken from the officer could have been from the same gun. The gentleman who testified in regards to it stated that it was shot from a 38, but he couldn't tell for sure if it was the same weapon, but it could have been. A bullet casing found in the parking lot of the Burger King by a homeless man WAS from the gun that Troy Davis shot into Michael Coopers face.

Now, if I was into conspiracies, I would just say that the police had gotten the gun that shot one of their brother officers from Red, and ejected a shell, and dropped it at Burger King, and then hid behind the bushes until some homeless guy showed up, and then asked him to hand it them for a dollar...
But I'm not a chemist, or from Area 51. I think I'll just go with that was overlooked evidence from when Troy Davis murdered the officer with his gun, that same gun he shot Michael Cooper with.

As I said in my original post. If I was Troy Davis, and i was innocent I would have just told them what I did with my gun. They could check it out, do some ballistic tests with it, and let him go home.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

The same reason they say '7 of the 9 witnesses' recanted. There were 34 witnesses for the State.

19 of these "witnesses were prosecution witness that saw and heard nothing (maybe not nothing, but hopefully you know what I mean here) but were actually like expert witnesses and such, only 15 people actually testified about the case, tho I am not sure what capacity 6 of those witnesses were testifying in, I think that several were informants, but I need to look, so don't put much weight in that. But the 9 that are always referred to were the eye witnesses who claimed at trial to have seen Troy shoot the officer. 7 of those recanted. One made statements that contradicted his testimony at trial and one was Red Coles.


I wonder why they never talk about the bloody shorts found in his Mothers dryer. Must have been relevant since the defense fought to keep them put of the trial. Too bad the blood was too degraded to test by the time technology was available.

I don't know, but I do know that the reason that the shorts were not admitted at trial was because the police found them in the dryer after threatening, without a search warrant to bust the door down to search if Troy's mom didn't let him in. I can find a source on this if need be, but I didn't keep it because they were inadmissible and the prosecution didn't put much weight in the shorts either:

"However, even the State conceded that this evidence lacked any probative value of guilt, submitting it only to show what the Board of Pardons and Paroles had before it. (Evidentiary Hearing Transcript at 468-69.) Indeed, there was insufficient DNA to determine who the blood belonged to, so the shorts in no way linked Mr. Davis to the murder of Officer MacPhail. The blood could have belonged to Mr. Davis, Mr. Larry Young, Officer MacPhail, or even have gotten onto the shorts entirely apart from the events of that night. Moreover, it is not even clear that the substance was blood. (See Pet. Ex. 46.)"

http://www.gasd.uscourts.gov/pdf/409cv00130_92part2.pdf


Why did Troy's sister take him to Atlanta in the middle of the night after Officer MacPhail was murdered? And why did it take him 4 days to surrender to police when he knew they were looking for him?

From my understanding, Troy Davis' life and that of his family was being threatened by Red Coles, however, this, as in one of my previous posts is coming from a source I am not comfortable with as even coming from Troy's own mouth, so I am still looking for info on this as well. With that, I have just cracked open a notebook and am making a list of questions that have been brought up that I am trying to find an answer for (whatever that answer may be--as I said, I want to be comfortable with this execution) so that I can post the facts and links, unless anyone else can come across something reputable and can post before me.

I said I wasn't going to do this again...but I am a stickler for truth and facts and I really want to know.

Why in June 2010 did Troy not take the stand to clear his name?

I have no idea, but as a Legal Studies major, I know that this is his right and a jury is not to take that into consideration and I have no problem with it and in my mind it does not prove his guilt. I would not take the stand at a trial where I were guilty or innocent, but I understand the process better than most people. I would certainly be given the eye if something ever happened around me, because I would lawyer up immediately and only speak through an attorney. But that's just me and my years with the IP has taught me a lot of things that scare me.

And I do realize this was a hearing to determine if he could get a new trial.

:innocent: I was just saying, and as I mentioned before I just don't put much stock in handing it back to the original court over and over and I think that if everything (and not just in this case) weren't so much about politics and were really about justice I might feel differently. Admittedly, I may also be cynical because I come from a state where "Evidence of innocence is irrelevant." ~Former Virginia Attorney General Mary Sue Terry

My responses in red, just so I can stay organized. I really am going to try to go to sleep soon. :crazy:

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Thanks HRcodepink, I was just going to say that I read he had brain damage in this thread, but in many of the news reports, the injury Michael Cooper suffered was to his face, not some random bullet shot at a moving car and "accidently" struck Michael in some more innocent (?) location. The car was specifically targeted, according to witnesses.http://www.wpxi.com/news/29250894/detail.html

Snipped respectively for space:

Now wait a minute! :crazy: I admit I have gotten no further in your post than this and I am going to read the rest of it, but I just want to clarify that I in no way said that it was an innocent situation or that the gun being fired was an accident!! Not in the least!! What I read in some docs I had found and posted yesterday I read that what happened was that someone, allegedly Troy Davis, shot out the back of the car window and the bullet went into the car and lodged into Cooper's jaw. I was just mentioning it because it sounds a lot different than someone just walking up and shooting someone in the face, like point blank shooting them in the face. I hope I am making sense, I am kind of running on empty over here and may not be putting my thoughts together well. :crazy:

Anyway, I am still trying to find out what was going on with the aggravated assault charge because I have read that he had to have shot the officer because the casings matched the ones from the party, but then when reading about the party I have read that he had to have done that because the casings matched the shooting at BK. And it can't be both, so I am trying to stick with things that are as official as possible. The only thing I am certain about at this point is that whoever shot Michael Cooper actually shot out the back window of the car and the bullet lodged in Cooper's jaw. Would really love to see some trial transcripts to find out if it is true that Cooper testified on Troy's behalf. For certain he has made a statement that what the officers said he said was not what he said. Again, hope I am making sense. :crazy:

Off to read the rest of your post and do some more digging before I reply again.

ETA: of course it can be both (from above and would have to be for the shooter at one place to have been the shooter from the other, but I mean, when they rationalize it, you can't say that one proves the other and vice versa if you never established one or the other for sure. I know...probably still not making sense.

Also, in Davis' last statement (and before) he claimed that he had no gun that night, so I don't know about that. Maybe he had a gun before and lost it, sold it, it was stolen, he got rid of it after shooting someone else on a different night or even earlier that day. I don't know. I do know they searched the house (without a warrant) and never recovered a gun from either Davis or Coles and to my knowledge a witness has come forward and said that they saw Coles get rid of a gun that night, but no one says the same of Davis. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that no one has said so, but they have about the other guy. I just don't know if he even had a gun that night and the more I dig, the less becomes solid and to me, it is all just falling apart. Really want to see the transcripts.

Also, I am not a chemist either. :giggle: