GA - Winder - Apalachee High School school shooting, 4 dead, 9 injured *father and son arrested*

[statt#1]

I am not in conflict with your reply. I will say that the gun should have never been in his hands. The gun should have never been able to leave his home in his hands. We can try and make schools armed fortresses but shooters are cunning and always planning based on the information on previous shootings. If parents/guardians refuse to secure their weapons, maybe they should not have them. Additionally, if parents/guardians are unwilling to work to keep their kids healthy physically and psychologically, maybe they should not maintain custody of them. Seems to me that responsibility of primary caregivers is taking a back seat to the kind of fortress building we need to have to keep children safe from unsecured guns and families who do not properly care for their children who become violent killers. I work in a school that is a fortress but I, for sure, know that every fortress has an exploitable weak spot. Kids should be cared for and guns should have to be secured. JMHO.

I get it, and I'm not being confrontational either. In fact, I fully understand the multi prong approach needed here, however, I'm a realist. There are few shootings inside U.S. courthouses, in the lobby maybe, out on the sidewalk, maybe, but in the building, nope. Armed security standing, put your goods on the conveyor belt, walk through the garrett detector, get wanded, then enter.

Too much trouble for the students? You tell me. Too expensive? You tell me.

TSA. Shootings past the gates? nada. Shootings on the plane? nada Why? same reason.

That's reality, for me. My opinion, all other argument is moot. Prevent the weaponry from entering the building, and significantly improve the chances of a classroom of kids not being at the mercy of the murderer with the semi automatic rifle, or sword, or knife, or pistol, or whatever. I never understand the argument against it....I just don't get it.

And truth is, myriad parents are unwilling to seek services for themselves or their children, that is another matter, but it is reality. And myriad parents, as these, have "issues" galore, and make poor decisions, and don't lock up their weapons. Who has control of that? Me? You? The next guy down the block? The FBI? How crazy is THAT? The FBI was AT THE HOME.

What we could control, right now, fairly easily, is the flow of weaponry in to the building.

Baffling to me that it isn't done. My opinion, darn near negligent in the grand scope of things.

 

[Arkay]

However, an immediate remedy that would be infinitely successful would be to prevent the weapon from entry to the building

I work in a school that is a fortress but I, for sure, know that every fortress has an exploitable weak spot. Kids should be cared for and guns should have to be secured

I agree with both.

My thoughts are that while we presume to know that a terrible childhood is a potential precursor for a violent child, although that is often the case, it is certainly not foreordained.

There are of course wonderful people who survived and thrived despite hideous childhoods, and there are people who seem to grow up idyllically and yet turn out violent.

Of course there will be less tragedy if access to weapons is restricted.

Not to sound trite, but since we can’t read minds, we can’t see inside hearts, let’s use what we can to see inside book bags, pockets, etc. Right now IMO those would be metal detectors.

I do agree that we can’t establish infinite barricades and there will always be a weak spot. All the hassle at the airport is useless if someone shoots us while on the line to go through security.

Or if someone shoots or uses explosives or a knife while the school kids are lined up to go through the detectors.

But IMO, something is better than nothing.

The first line of defense should be no access for children to guns at all, which is the responsibility of the parents. Since clearly this is not foolproof, let’s utilize a secondary means of preventing entry into a school by erecting devices that can see what we cannot, absent a daily search of each child each day.

It’s not perfect. It’s a pain in the neck. Here it gets cold in winter and the kids are freezing and the line takes longer when they’re being scanned.

But if the alternative is another school shooting, which has become a steady stream in America, let’s double down on preventing access to the degree that we can.

JMO

 

[DS2021]

So if he wouldve gone and vandalized the school, and done thousands in damage, his father wouldn't have been responsible?

We hold parents accountable for their minor childrens actions all the time.

Parental Responsibility Laws and Fines - Joel Baskin

Parental responsibility refers to the liability for both the criminal and civil acts committed by their child under 18 years of age with fees up to $10,000.

joelbaskin.com

Georgia has a number of parental responsibility laws that can hold a parent or guardian liable for both criminal and civil acts that a minor may be involved in. The liability may include financial responsibility up to $10,000 plus court costs in property damage and/or medical expenses.

 

[statt#1]

“Blaming the father — and the decision to immediately charge him — doesn’t get at the root problem of gun violence, which is that firearms are widely accessible to adults and children,” said Linda C. Fentiman, a professor emerita at Pace University.

The prosecutions raise thorny questions about culpability.
“These cases are horrible, and I very much understand why a prosecutor would feel like parents like this were egregious in their lack of care,” Professor Yankah said. “But I do think it’s worth pausing to realize that we have blown right by a deeply held principle: that you’re only responsible for your actions, and that when other people act, you’re not responsible for what they do.”

Georgia Tests a Novel Tactic in School Shootings: Putting Parents on Trial

After four people were killed at Apalachee High School, prosecutors charged a student and his father, who officials say had given the boy the gun as a gift.

www.nytimes.com

It's a slippery slope my friend, sounds good when we're hyped up, charge dad with murder. What if it were a knife from the kitchen drawer? Is that the next step? What if your 16 year old is drinking and kills a family of 4 one night, in YOUR car? After drinking YOUR beer? Is the parent then charged with vehicular homicide? I could think of dozens of what if's. I would think a precedent would be set in a case such as this, and it would open the door for all sorts of legal issues, and lawsuits, where a minor commits some crime, and the parent is charged. Scary stuff. It's a great discussion Thanks!

 

[Izzylizzy]

Seems to me that we have also seen in MSM some family statements that the killer was asking for help AND that the family at a distance was seeking help. This would also go to the father having knowledge of his son's mental state. If people in FL think a person is at risk, how could the man living in the same house not know

iirc: There's something going on in the courts about minors being sentenced to life, with(?) or without parole(?) and that their abusive/neglected childhood should be allowed in as evidence.
I forget if it's at trial and/or the sentencing?


'WINDER, Georgia — Colt Gray, the baby-face Georgia school shooting suspect who is charged with murdering two classmates and two teachers, grew up in a broken and neglectful home, which police and child services visited on a regular basis, a former neighbor and landlord tell The Post.'

'Lauren Vickers, who lived next-door to the Grays in Jefferson, Georgia, said there were “problems immediately” when the Grays and their three children moved into the well-manicured neighborhood 60 miles east of Atlanta in 2022.

“There were nights where the mom would lock him and his sister out the house. And they would be banging on the back door, just screaming like ‘Mom! mom! mom!’ and crying. It was absolutely devastating,” she said.

'Vickers said that sometimes the youngest child would come to her back yard asking for food.'

“No clean clothes, I’m not exaggerating.”

“It was constant abuse,” she said. “It’s very, very sad.'

Georgia school shooting suspect Colt Gray’s broken homelife: A mom with multiple drug arrests and a dad who gave him an AR-15 for Christmas

“There were nights where the mom would lock him and his sister out the house. And they would be banging on the back door, just screaming like ‘Mom! mom! mom!’ and crying. It was a…

nypost.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

cont

Gray’s maternal grandfather told CNN Thursday night that he was “just a good kid” who “lived in an environment that was hostile.”

“His dad beat up on him, I mean, I’m not talking about physical, but screaming and hollering, and he did the same thing to my daughter,” Charles Polhamus said, adding that the boy did not show any outward anger issues but was affected by his upbringing.'

Georgia school shooting suspect Colt Gray’s broken homelife: A mom with multiple drug arrests and a dad who gave him an AR-15 for Christmas

“There were nights where the mom would lock him and his sister out the house. And they would be banging on the back door, just screaming like ‘Mom! mom! mom!’ and crying. It was a…

nypost.com

 

[statt#1]

I agree with both.

My thoughts are that while we presume to know that a terrible childhood is a potential precursor for a violent child, although that is often the case, it is certainly not foreordained.

There are of course wonderful people who survived and thrived despite hideous childhoods, and there are people who seem to grow up idyllically and yet turn out violent.

Of course there will be less tragedy if access to weapons is restricted.

Not to sound trite, but since we can’t read minds, we can’t see inside hearts, let’s use what we can to see inside book bags, pockets, etc. Right now IMO those would be metal detectors.

I do agree that we can’t establish infinite barricades and there will always be a weak spot. All the hassle at the airport is useless if someone shoots us while on the line to go through security.

Or if someone shoots or uses explosives or a knife while the school kids are lined up to go through the detectors.

But IMO, something is better than nothing.

The first line of defense should be no access for children to guns at all, which is the responsibility of the parents. Since clearly this is not foolproof, let’s utilize a secondary means of preventing entry into a school by erecting devices that can see what we cannot, absent a daily search of each child each day.

It’s not perfect. It’s a pain in the neck. Here it gets cold in winter and the kids are freezing and the line takes longer when they’re being scanned.

But if the alternative is another school shooting, which has become a steady stream in America, let’s double down on preventing access to the degree that we can.

JMO

I too agree with kaen, and you! There is a lot that can be done. It's always my push in these circumstances to do what we can do, what we have control of, and that would be to prevent firearms and other weapons from entering a school building.

Many laws are in place, and in the U.S., parents, and kids too, have rights, and one of those rights is to decline counseling....unless involuntary commitment is in play. We all know what's needed on that end, but have no power to force it, the mental health needs, the reasonable handling of firearms in the home, the preventing children from accessing firearms, we simply can't control that, and the results are obvious.

Stop the guns from getting in to the schools.

 

[caradana]

Humbly contributing a thought. My husband is an elementary public school teacher. The first day of school was yesterday. A kindergartener was dropped off with a milk bottle, wearing a diaper.

The full situation has since revealed more facts and it involves a lot, everything you might imagine and probably more, including bad decisions, good intentions, mental health issues, vulnerability, all the things. It has abruptly reminded me that sometimes people actually do the best they can with what they have, and they’re awful at maximizing what they have, and they make non-sensical decisions even as non-evil people.American society winds up retroactively trying to fix that. Here we are.

Not positing this as an excuse. Positing it as a reality. There have been cases in the past where a mass shooter had a family that had plenty of capability to intervene earlier and opted not to because they were in deep denial (cases in point: Lanza, Gendron). There are also cases in the past where a family was crashed out and on fumes with addiction, socioeconomics and other self-imposed factors - where there was just nothing there. This in MOO: is the latter. MOO: I look at Colin Gray and I don’t necessarily see an evil person. I see a man who was not a great husband, not a great father, accused domestic abuser, made disgusting mistakes, and who crashed out and radically missed the obvious threat that was in front of his face, who didn’t want to see it. He might be a total expletive. I just see a catastrophically flawed person who didn’t know what to do and dug deeper and it got worse.

I hope, if nothing else, that there will be the redemption of one hapless dad in this country with a son who is threatening on Discord who looks at this case and says “I need to get more help.” That would be the victory we will never even know about because it prevented the thing that never happened.

 

[LunaInvidia]

maybe a smidge off topic but Discord is about as deep web as Gmail is, honestly. It's probably the 'social media' I use the most, so feel free to ask me any questions about how it works!

 

[Sundog]

Seems to me that we have also seen in MSM some family statements that the killer was asking for help AND that the family at a distance was seeking help. This would also go to the father having knowledge of his son's mental state. If people in FL think a person is at risk, how could the man living in the same house not know

Are the family statements in MSM on the father's side or the mother's side? It hasn't been clear to me. Paternal family members of the shooter or maternal family members of the shooter? Or both?

ETA If its the maternal family members of the shooter, we may be seeing some bias in their remarks. From what we know of both parents at this point, there is certainly enough blame to go around.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I too agree with kaen, and you! There is a lot that can be done. It's always my push in these circumstances to do what we can do, what we have control of, and that would be to prevent firearms and other weapons from entering a school building.

Many laws are in place, and in the U.S., parents, and kids too, have rights, and one of those rights is to decline counseling....unless involuntary commitment is in play. We all know what's needed on that end, but have no power to force it, the mental health needs, the reasonable handling of firearms in the home, the preventing children from accessing firearms, we simply can't control that, and the results are obvious.

Stop the guns from getting in to the schools.

BBM

'Legal Considerations For Teens And Their Parents'​

'Teens and their parents have legal rights and considerations when it comes to therapy mandated by Child Protective Services. It’s vital for both parties to understand their rights and seek legal counsel if necessary.

Teens have the right to express their views and preferences regarding therapy. Their opinions should be taken into account, as long as they are of a suitable age and maturity level to make informed decisions.

However, the final decision often lies with the parents, unless the court determines otherwise.'

Can Child Protective Services Force a Teen to Go to Therapy?

Learn when Child Protective Services (CPS) can mandate therapy for teenagers and the goals behind this intervention.

katycounseling.com

 

[fred&edna]

It's a slippery slope my friend, sounds good when we're hyped up, charge dad with murder. What if it were a knife from the kitchen drawer? Is that the next step? What if your 16 year old is drinking and kills a family of 4 one night, in YOUR car? After drinking YOUR beer? Is the parent then charged with vehicular homicide? I could think of dozens of what if's. I would think a precedent would be set in a case such as this, and it would open the door for all sorts of legal issues, and lawsuits, where a minor commits some crime, and the parent is charged. Scary stuff. It's a great discussion Thanks!

It is definitely a legal slippery slope but looking at the loss of lives within a public school... it seems a risk worth tentatively taking. It IS a great discussion as I consider and reconsider three important aspects... retribution, deterrence, and rehabilitation.

jmo

 

[statt#1]

BBM

'Legal Considerations For Teens And Their Parents'​

'Teens and their parents have legal rights and considerations when it comes to therapy mandated by Child Protective Services. It’s vital for both parties to understand their rights and seek legal counsel if necessary.

Teens have the right to express their views and preferences regarding therapy. Their opinions should be taken into account, as long as they are of a suitable age and maturity level to make informed decisions.

However, the final decision often lies with the parents, unless the court determines otherwise.'

Can Child Protective Services Force a Teen to Go to Therapy?

Learn when Child Protective Services (CPS) can mandate therapy for teenagers and the goals behind this intervention.

katycounseling.com

My career spanned 25 years in the field. I'm cognizant of law. I also have hands on experience with literally hundreds of cases of students/children who have been counseled in various settings. I can attest to the fact that a young person who refuses to engage in counseling will do just that...not engage, no matter the law, and no matter a parents wishes.

There are all sorts of factors that play in to whether a family, parent, or child wishes to engage with a therapist.....way too many to enumerate here in this discussion.

I've first hand experience with probation, children and youth services, the courts, truancy, drug task force, gang resource, crisis intervention, suicide prevention, bullying, assault, death, suicide itself, absolute deplorable living conditions, rape, abuse beyond imagination...you name it. I've personally been involved in disarming students in the public school, searches, overdoses, self harm/cutting, the list goes on and on. It was my career.

The single best thing that could be done right away to avoid a shooting inside a public school building is to put in place the necessary measures to prevent the weaponry from entering the school.

 

[Izzylizzy]

maybe a smidge off topic but Discord is about as deep web as Gmail is, honestly. It's probably the 'social media' I use the most, so feel free to ask me any questions about how it works!

Thanks for that info and it doesn't sound like rocket-science to track an account holder.

In one article I read LE said they couldn't be sure whose IP it was and that the user had a Russian language name which is the same name in English as an infamous school shooter but they didn't name the name.

Another article said that the account was traced to CG, so???

I think the 2023 investigation may be coming back to bite them, at least the local LE.

IIRC: There's been 2 other school shootings where the FBI had been called to report concerning behaviors , online a and off and they dropped the ball and the assumed 2 suspects went on to carry out shootings

 

[Izzylizzy]

Are the family statements in MSM on the father's side or the mother's side? It hasn't been clear to me. Paternal family members of the shooter or maternal family members of the shooter? Or both?

ETA If its the maternal family members of the shooter, we may be seeing some bias in their remarks. From what we know of both parents at this point, there is certainly enough blame to go around.

It was the maternal g'father who said CG was a "good kid" and his father was verbally abusive to to him, not physical but always screaming and yelling( who knows what he was saying?).
He also said that's how he treated CG's mother too, who would be his daughter,

The raging aunt could be from either side,or an in-law.
So everyone knew that these 3 children were being abused,family, neighbors and CPS yet it appears that all 3 remained with their parents, even after the father was evicted from his and CG's home.

IMO:
CPS also needs to be investigated.

 

[Breezie]

It was the maternal g'father who said CG was a "good kid" and his father was verbally abusive to to him, not physical but always screaming and yelling( who knows what he was saying?).
He also said that's how he treated CG's mother too, who would be his daughter,

The raging aunt could be from either side,or an in-law.
So everyone knew that these 3 children were being abused,family, neighbors and CPS yet it appears that all 3 remained with their parents, even after the father was evicted from his and CG's home.

IMO:
CPS also needs to be investigated.

The aunt is the mother’s sister. It sounded like she tried to help as much as she could while living in Florida.

 

[mickey2942]

Unpopular POV. I feel bad for this kid. I wish that when FBI had talked to him, that he had been referred for intensive treatment, maybe assessment on danger to himself and others. Some sort of intervention.

I think someone dropped the ball here, and this kid could have been helped. Now, he is going to go to prison for life, and looking at him, it won't be a good place. Georgia prison. Bad news for him.

 

[Izzylizzy]

My career spanned 25 years in the field. I'm cognizant of law. I also have hands on experience with literally hundreds of cases of students/children who have been counseled in various settings. I can attest to the fact that a young person who refuses to engage in counseling will do just that...not engage, no matter the law, and no matter a parents wishes.

There are all sorts of factors that play in to whether a family, parent, or child wishes to engage with a therapist.....way too many to enumerate here in this discussion.

I've first hand experience with probation, children and youth services, the courts, truancy, drug task force, gang resource, crisis intervention, suicide prevention, bullying, assault, death, suicide itself, absolute deplorable living conditions, rape, abuse beyond imagination...you name it. I've personally been involved in disarming students in the public school, searches, overdoses, self harm/cutting, the list goes on and on. It was my career.

The single best thing that could be done right away to avoid a shooting inside a public school building is to put in place the necessary measures to prevent the weaponry from entering the school.

If a child/teen doesn't want to talk , well they won't and that wasn't what my reply was about.
You said that parents can refuse taking their child to a therapist.

The link I posted shows what the parent/child's rights are when it comes to therapy and states that even though parents have the right to refuse therapy for their child the courts can intervene and mandate it.

 

[Breezie]

School shooter dad 'kicked in the door' to retrieve guns but left dogs

A former landlord has criticized Colin and Marcee Gray, the parents of accused Georgia school shooter Colt Gray, describing them as irresponsible and neglectful.

www.dailymail.co.uk

A former landlord to the parents of accused Georgia school shooter, Colt Gray, has portrayed the family as both cold hearted and callous.

The man, who spoke on condition of anonymity, described how Colin, 54, and Marcee Gray, 43, were allegedly chaotic tenants to deal with and he ultimately had them evicted.

Even more shockingly, he said, when the now estranged couple fell behind on their rent and were forced from their rental home in 2020, they decided to leave their pets behind, only returning to retrieve their guns - and allegedly kicking down the front door as they did so.

This is not the same landlord who thought dad was trying to be a standup guy while mom was leaving the kids locked out in cold weather and passed out in her car while it was still running.

 

[Lilibet]

Humbly contributing a thought. My husband is an elementary public school teacher. The first day of school was yesterday. A kindergartener was dropped off with a milk bottle, wearing a diaper.

The full situation has since revealed more facts and it involves a lot, everything you might imagine and probably more, including bad decisions, good intentions, mental health issues, vulnerability, all the things. It has abruptly reminded me that sometimes people actually do the best they can with what they have, and they’re awful at maximizing what they have, and they make non-sensical decisions even as non-evil people.American society winds up retroactively trying to fix that. Here we are.

Not positing this as an excuse. Positing it as a reality. There have been cases in the past where a mass shooter had a family that had plenty of capability to intervene earlier and opted not to because they were in deep denial (cases in point: Lanza, Gendron). There are also cases in the past where a family was crashed out and on fumes with addiction, socioeconomics and other self-imposed factors - where there was just nothing there. This in MOO: is the latter. MOO: I look at Colin Gray and I don’t necessarily see an evil person. I see a man who was not a great husband, not a great father, accused domestic abuser, made disgusting mistakes, and who crashed out and radically missed the obvious threat that was in front of his face, who didn’t want to see it. He might be a total expletive. I just see a catastrophically flawed person who didn’t know what to do and dug deeper and it got worse.

I hope, if nothing else, that there will be the redemption of one hapless dad in this country with a son who is threatening on Discord who looks at this case and says “I need to get more help.” That would be the victory we will never even know about because it prevented the thing that never happened.

That’s a beautiful, compassionate and thought-provoking post @caradana. I read it to my husband, a retired elementary school teacher. He saw so many troubled kids with troubled and/or uninvolved parents in his career. One ended up a drug-addicted murderer as an adult and has a thread here.

I don’t know what should be done with Colin Gray. While he may well be “catastrophically flawed” does that excuse his negligence? I don’t know. But I do know that I don’t want to have a knee-jerk reaction. And like you, I hope this makes another messed up parent get help.

JMO