GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #2

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I agree PrimeSuspect. The evidence we have to date is all mainly from bail hearing & committal hearings. For the bail hearing only enough evidence was required to have bail denied. With committal hearing, only enough evidence was needed to show the case should go to trial.

From bail hearing...

June 30, 2012

Justice David Boddice rejected Mr Davis's argument, saying the circumstantial case had factors that "if accepted by a jury" would make a strong argument.

"I do not accept the contention that the Crown case is a weak case," he said, denying bail.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allisons-murder/story-e6freoof-1226412721085

-----------------------------------------------------

Committal Hearing...

March 20, 2013

‘‘I'm of the opinion the evidence is sufficient to put the defendant on trial on the offences charged,’’ Mr Butler said.

‘‘It will be for the jury to assess the evidence ...

‘‘That much is apparent by the fact that only 40 witnesses were examined out of some 285 witnesses whose statements have been tendered.’’

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...-for-murder-20130320-2geno.html#ixzz35LCK8Gsq

So can someone advise here or give a comparison of other like cases on how evidence can change or expande from bail through committal to trial evidence? For instance, have we seen everything we going to by reviewing bail and committal docs, witness statements?
 
Gaol protected himself from himself.

Allison should be alive.
Bankruptcy was a cleaner, simpler option.
But too proud to contemplate.

I'm not sure of the laws but I think you can't run or own a business if you've been bankrupted.

c-21 is worldwide.
http://www.century21global.com

This is correct unless you get court permission

"Bankruptcy may also have an effect on your occupation and you should discuss any ramifications with your employer or prospective employer. You may also be prevented from t holding various licenses and these could a builder's licenses, a real estate license, a liquor license, a tax agent's licenses and others. You cannot be a director of any company without approval. It is evident that the consequences of the bankruptcy laws will have a detrimental impact on your life."

http://www.foxsymes.com.au/articles/A-Guide-to-Bankruptcy-Laws
 
I agree the prosecution need to present a watertight case. So far it is circumstantial and the injuries to GBCs face are the most damning. I think that GBC will take the stand. He has never made a formal statement. His best hope for aquittal is to say yes there was an awful fight and Alison scratched him, hit him etc and ran out. He could say she was provoked by his disclosure that TM would be at the conference the next day. He did not was to inflame her further and waited for her to come home and she never did. He could say he was embarrased to admit that he did not go out to look for her that was why he lied to the police. He believed she would come home but was getting concerned etc. That would be far more believable than caterpillers and shaving etc.

There is still the blood in the car but what concerns me the "rivulets" are human blood but there is no DNA evidence that it is Alison's.

It is Allison's blood.

Crown prosecutor Todd Fuller told the jury during his opening address that the blood stain had tested positive for Allison's DNA.
http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/gerard-baden-clay-wanted-build-future-with-wife/2292718/
 
I agree the prosecution need to present a watertight case. So far it is circumstantial and the injuries to GBCs face are the most damning. I think that GBC will take the stand. He has never made a formal statement. His best hope for aquittal is to say yes there was an awful fight and Alison scratched him, hit him etc and ran out. He could say she was provoked by his disclosure that TM would be at the conference the next day. He did not was to inflame her further and waited for her to come home and she never did. He could say he was embarrased to admit that he did not go out to look for her that was why he lied to the police. He believed she would come home but was getting concerned etc. That would be far more believable than caterpillers and shaving etc.

There is still the blood in the car but what concerns me the "rivulets" are human blood but there is no DNA evidence that it is Alison's.


Blood stain in car matched Allison Baden-Clay's DNA

Crown prosecutor Todd Fuller told the jury during his opening address that the blood stain had tested positive for Allison's DNA.


http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/gerard-baden-clay-wanted-build-future-with-wife/2292718/
 
Ivebeen reading through all the posts on this site and Aussiecriminals and the dynamic of NBC OBW and GBC seems to be something we all agree is odd.. I have a theory that whilst GBCmay have been toying with the idea of removing Alison from the picture, when it actually happened he became frightened and he called on the family ( perhaps it was GBC OBW was talking to on ABC's phone and not Alison). NBC & OBW subsequently raced over to assess the situation and come up with a plan that ammounted tosomething like - we cant have a murder against our name whether it was accidental or not - how can we minimise the damage to the family? I have a strong feeling that GBC has been manipulated into disposing of the body, the business as usual story and the pre-emptive strategies of going to the many doctors and crashing the friends car. I think NBC is driving this and OBW and GBC are following his lead. I think they continue to perpetuate this lie because of the shame of embarressing the father and the family name. As long as they continue to cry innocent there remains a chance of not being found guilty thus minimising the damage to the family name. If NBC is leveraging off the family lineage and the potential ramifications to the family legacy internationally it would be quite a burden to bear. IThe real sad part is that I think for GBC it would be a harder cross to bear than the cross of killing his wife. This is all my own conjecture though trying to make sense of it.
 
GBC must be considered innocent until proven guilty and considered guilty beyond any reasonable doubt by a jury of his peers. To my mind this means that he will not be convicted if there is some slight chance in the minds of the jury that he is innocent.

The onus lies on the prosecution to remove all doubts about his guilt and at this stage of the trial they obviously haven't done that. I think that so far they have convinced the jury (and me) that he has lied about how he got scratches on his face saying that they were caused by a safety-razor.

I think he is a liar and I think those face scratches are caused by something other than a safety razor and possibly by fingernails. From his other injuries I think he was in a fight with someone who scratches during the night of April 19th. I don't know why he lied and I don't know who he fought or where. It is up to the prosecution to paint a clearer picture with evidence and obviously they will.

As to whether there is some slight chance that he is innocent, that is the job of his defence: GBC doesn't have a watertight alibi otherwise it would have been offered and checked by now and he would be a free man. The defence could argue that some person unknown had the opportunity to murder ABC while GBC was 'heavy sleeping'. The defence could argue that there had been a violent domestic dispute and ABC scratched GBC but that does not prove murder. They could argue that GBC is taking the rap to protect the real murderer.

Lots of scenarios could be contrived that cause reasonable doubt unless the prosecution closes off all options.

I think most people reading this forum are of the same opinion as to whether GBC is guilty or not. The fascination for me is to watch how the prosecution presents what they must see as their watertight case against him.

It is worth keeping in mind that "beyond reasonable doubt" is NOT "beyond a shadow of a doubt". The narrative either adds up to a cohesive, believable sequence of events or it doesn't.

Either: Allison's cheating husband, facing financial ruin and under pressure from his mistress to end his marriage once and for all, killed his heavily insured wife (and am I right in thinking her death occurred on the last day she was covered by a policy they couldn't afford to renew?), transported her body in the car where blood was later found, and dumped her off a bridge

Or

Allison killed herself, via an unknown/undetectable mechanism, in a location she was either transported to by unknown means/person(s) who haven't come forward, or she walked to in the dark for in excess of two hours...

Or

Allison was killed by an unknown person who didn't rob or rape her...

And Gerard's facial abrasions were genuinely caused by a razor even though experts find that highly improbable...

And she coincidentally picked up botanical traces that match the low growth around her house...

And the blood came to be there by innocent means in the brief time she'd owned the car...

The question isn't: is it possible to find another explanation for each individual piece of information? The question is: taken as a whole, is it reasonable to conclude the prosecution's case is the most likely explanation? Is it reasonable to believe it was a series of increasingly unlikely coincidences - he just so happens to self inflict unusual shaving cuts on the very day his wife was killed in a random attack by a stranger, which is a very unusual murder (see: Jill Meagher), which coincidentally happened as his self-imposed deadline approached to leave his wife, etc.

I believe a reasonable person would be required to accept far too much happenstance to conclude he was innocent. Any alternate scenarios I can think of require too much of the fantastical to seriously challenge the simple explanation: the man with means, motive and circumstantial evidence pointing to him is the one who did it.
 
When I reread the autopsy report yesterday I realised those pants were XXL. Now I am a lot bigger that Allison, but XXL would be too big on me, and would fall off - how does one go walking in falling down track pants? and why would she have ever bought them in the first place? I would say they would be a better fit on Elaine.

That is a very interesting observation. I just asked 'she' who knows about such things and she said that with a size 12 top, 170cm tall and weight 72kg XXL pants are going to be too big. Also if she had been that size at some stage she probably wouldn't even wear them around the house, never mind them falling down when she went walking, because they would be 'depressing fat gear' from some time previous if they were hers at all.

This sounds a bit like the perm in Legally Blond but it is an excellent point.

If she was dressed post mortem by someone they would know what she was wearing. I don't think I could even guess what my wife was wearing if she went out walking and we go together a lot of the time - I just ran this by her in the lounge and have come back to the computer and can't accurately remember what she is wearing right now.
 
It is worth keeping in mind that "beyond reasonable doubt" is NOT "beyond a shadow of a doubt". The narrative either adds up to a cohesive, believable sequence of events or it doesn't.

Either: Allison's cheating husband, facing financial ruin and under pressure from his mistress to end his marriage once and for all, killed his heavily insured wife (and am I right in thinking her death occurred on the last day she was covered by a policy they couldn't afford to renew?), transported her body in the car where blood was later found, and dumped her off a bridge

Or

Allison killed herself, via an unknown/undetectable mechanism, in a location she was either transported to by unknown means/person(s) who haven't come forward, or she walked to in the dark for in excess of two hours...

Or

Allison was killed by an unknown person who didn't rob or rape her...

And Gerard's facial abrasions were genuinely caused by a razor even though experts find that highly improbable...

And she coincidentally picked up botanical traces that match the low growth around her house...

And the blood came to be there by innocent means in the brief time she'd owned the car...

The question isn't: is it possible to find another explanation for each individual piece of information? The question is: taken as a whole, is it reasonable to conclude the prosecution's case is the most likely explanation? Is it reasonable to believe it was a series of increasingly unlikely coincidences - he just so happens to self inflict unusual shaving cuts on the very day his wife was killed in a random attack by a stranger, which is a very unusual murder (see: Jill Meagher), which coincidentally happened as his self-imposed deadline approached to leave his wife, etc.

I believe a reasonable person would be required to accept far too much happenstance to conclude he was innocent. Any alternate scenarios I can think of require too much of the fantastical to seriously challenge the simple explanation: the man with means, motive and circumstantial evidence pointing to him is the one who did it.

Good points but a jury is going to be reluctant to convict a possibly innocent person. The defence aren't obliged to prove any alternative scenario but simply outline how the prosecution, publicly and politically pressured to make an arrest, may have failed to investigate some alternative perpetrator --- and I'm sure they will try.
 
Hi Ag
The Jury will decide what they will, regardless of any speculative scenarios, they will deal with the facts.
 
truth and testimony,utter evidence,absolute and beyond reproach!
 
When I reread the autopsy report yesterday I realised those pants were XXL. Now I am a lot bigger that Allison, but XXL would be too big on me, and would fall off - how does one go walking in falling down track pants? and why would she have ever bought them in the first place? I would say they would be a better fit on Elaine.

Perhaps they were old pregnancy pants? Although as you say why would you go walking in them?
 
When I reread the autopsy report yesterday I realised those pants were XXL. Now I am a lot bigger that Allison, but XXL would be too big on me, and would fall off - how does one go walking in falling down track pants? and why would she have ever bought them in the first place? I would say they would be a better fit on Elaine.

Ummm...... That's a pretty big thing to be saying Spratsmum. (No pun, big or otherwise intended.)
Why would Allison, or anyone at all for that matter, be wearing clothes way bigger than her proper size? Was Allison into "disposable clothing"?
 
So can someone advise here or give a comparison of other like cases on how evidence can change or expande from bail through committal to trial evidence? For instance, have we seen everything we going to by reviewing bail and committal docs, witness statements?

I don't think we've seen everything at all.

Off top of my head a couple of cases....

Simon Gittany....video was released of him dragging Lisa Harnum back into their apartment after she tried to escape from him. He then threw her to her death from the balcony. We hadn't previously seen or heard anything about that video prior to the trial. And it was shocking & damning video!!

I should also add, his family were also his staunchest supporters. They were turning up at the court waving placards proclaiming his innocence. All that had no effect....he was found guilty & rightly so.

Cowan....his recorded confession was a bombshell at the trial. I think most folks would have read about cowan's arrest & that detectives had gone to WA but not a soul expected to hear anything remotely like the extraordinary work those detectives put in.

I've said it before on here...police are very well aware of how much evidence it takes, how thorough they have to be to make those charges stick & ultimately get a conviction.
 
Folks lay off sleuthing people who haven't been named as a suspect or POI.

Your posts will only be removed.

And I'll repeat it again. IF you make a statement as fact you need to supply a relevant link to support that information.
 
Respectfully snipped by me...
Originally Posted by spratsmum View Post
When I reread the autopsy report yesterday I realised those pants were XXL. Now I am a lot bigger that Allison, but XXL would be too big on me, and would fall off - how does one go walking in falling down track pants? and why would she have ever bought them in the first place?
Perhaps they were old pregnancy pants? Although as you say why would you go walking in them?

They were Katies brand XXL - that equates to a Katies size 20
The pants are 8 sizes larger than her tank top -
from the Katies sizes website:
2XL - Bust 116 - Waist 99 - Hip 126

ABC was wearing a BONDS jumper size XL:
The BONDs sizing for that garment size XL is:
Bust 102 - waist 83 - Hip 108
This equates to a size 16

The tank top with incorporated bra gives a better indication of ABC's authentic size - it was a 12.
A size 12 is: Bust 92



As you mentioned AAAA - If someone had just grabbed a pair of track pants to put on her - they may not have realized that they were pants that Allison had for her pregnancy - but didn't wear now.

But track pants 8 sizes larger are a huge difference - she could not have kept these pants on whilst running - seriously, they would have slid off when running unless they had a cord on them, and even then they would be terribly uncomfortable and impractical to do any exercise in.

And the brand - Katies?
I wonder if Allison had any other items in her wardrobe from Katies?
Its a brand that is known in Australia and has been around for many years - but is not now a fashionable brand, nor a maternity based fashion brand, though it does cater for larger sizes.

... Unless the pants did not belong to ABC at all.

.
 
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