GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #4

[FigTree]

continued:
• Gerard says he has only been in an altercation twice. Once as a 10 year old standing up for a friend. #badenclay
• Gerard says he was never violent to his wife. #badenclay
• Cross has finished. Byrne QC back on his feet. #badenclay
• Gerard says the second time was defending another friend from a bully when he was 12. He says he's never thrown a punch. #badenclay
• Gerard: I've never thrown a punch in my life #badenclay
• Gerard says he and Allison never argued in front of the children. #badenclay
• Gerard says he and Allison argued like any couple but never raised voices. #badenclay
• Gerard: on occasion we did argue, never raised voices, always respectful #badenclay
• After an extremely intense finish to the cross examination of Gerard Baden-Clay, he is now answering defence questions #badenclay
• Gerard says if the girls made a sound, they could hear it clearly through the house. #badenclay
• The court is being shown the floor plan of the house again. Gerard is discussing how sound travels. #badenclay
• Gerard is talking about the age of the house and the building materials used. #badenclay
• Gerard says if anyone made a sound in the house, they would hear it, no sound proofing #badenclay
• He denies that she bled in the car after somehow being injured by him #badenclay
• 'I am offended' he says, of the questions #badenclay
• He never did anything to Allison, not that night or any night #badenclay
• Gerard says he did not hear any noises that night. #badenclay
• Gerard says one of the girls got up on the night of April 19 after they put them to bed. Allison was on the couch. #badenclay
• Byrne asks Gerard to clarify what he meant when he admitted he had deceived Allison for four years. #badenclay
• Gerard says he deceived her and his family and friends by not telling them about his infidelities. #badenclay
• Gerard says deceived is a strong word, rather he protected Allison by not telling people about her depression. #badenclay
• Gerard says he deceived Toni McHugh by making her think they had a future together. #badenclay
• Gerard says that wasn't who he'd been brought up to be and he was very ashamed. #badenclay
• Gerard says he had no intention of telling Allison about the other women. He didn't want to jeopardise things. #badenclay
• Gerard says that's why he was relieved when things ended with Toni. #badenclay
• Gerard says he "had a number of infidelities" over the years. Difference with Toni was that they worked together. #badenclay
• Gerard says this is why he called Toni and asked about her talking to police. Said he told her to tell them the truth. #badenclay
• Gerard says he has no knowledge of criminal behaviour, how police operate. He says he was just wanted police to be told the truth.#badenclay
• Gerard says he deceived Toni McHugh by making her think they had a future together. #badenclay
• Gerard: have no knowledge of criminal behaviour or how police work #badenclay
• Gerard says he had a number of affair over the years, difference was Toni worked in his office #badenclay
• He felt awful about the affair: 'it just wasn't me. It wasn't who I was bought up to be' #badenclay
• Purely physical with other women, some of them over a period of time, many concurrent - Gerard #badenclay
• Gerard says some of the other women were for an extended period of time, many of them concurrent. #badenclay
• Gerard says he had no intention of telling Allison about the other women. He didn't want to jeopardise things. #badenclay
• Gerard says that's why he was relieved when things ended with Toni. #badenclay
• Gerard says some of the other women were for an extended period of time, many of them concurrent. #badenclay
• Gerard says he had no intention of telling Allison about the other women. He didn't want to jeopardise things. #badenclay
• Gerard says that's why he was relieved when things ended with Toni. #badenclay
• Gerard says he "had a number of infidelities" over the years. Difference with Toni was that they worked together. #badenclay
• Gerard says this is why he called Toni and asked about her talking to police. Said he told her to tell them the truth. #badenclay
• Gerard says he has no knowledge of criminal behaviour, how police operate. He says he was just wanted police to be told the truth.#badenclay
• Gerard says he deceived Toni McHugh by making her think they had a future together. #badenclay
• Gerard: like running on a broken leg, talk wasn't healing depression #badenclay
• Gerard: Toni visited my house twice, didn't stay over, we had some physical intimacy at the house, I'd told Allison #badenclay
• #badenclay says Toni visited family home... they had sex on spare bed and on mattress in loungeroom. @7NewsBrisbane
• Gerard says he wanted Toni to put him out of her life. "Some of the things I said and did were pretty naive and pretty stupid." #badenclay
• Gerard says he gave Toni a separation date he wouldn't keep because he was worried about her mental strength. #badenclay
• Gerard denies Toni stayed at his house. Says she visited and they had physical relations. #badenclayhttp://bit.ly/1vtLbCQ
• Gerard says he liked counsellor Carmel Ritchie's structure of the 15 minute sessions. #badenclay
• Gerard says the counsellor later explained it was important for Allison to talk about. He says he could see it wasn't helpful.
• Gerard says he was concerned Toni wasn't coping because of her personality #badenclay
• Gerard says he gave Toni a separation date he wouldn't keep because he was worried about her mental strength. #badenclay
• He doesn't have the spare bed anymore #badenclay
• Gerard: some of the things I said and did were pretty naive and stupid #badenclay
• Gerard: I wanted to distance myself physically. The physical side was important to Toni #badenclay
• Gerard says he'd known Allison for 17 years, Toni for five. #badenclay
• Gerard says he had some hope Toni could move on and they'd have some sort of friendship in the distant future. #badenclay
• It was easier to stop the sex if he just didn't see her because when he saw Toni she would want sex #badenclay
• Gerard says he had some hope Toni could move on and they'd have some sort of friendship in the distant future. #badenclay
• Gerard says he knew Allison since 95, McHugh since 05 #badenclay
• He was confident Allison wouldn't cause a scene at the conference on 20 April #badenclay
• Gerard says Allison could have been expecting Toni to be there anyway. #badenclay
• Gerard says he wasn't worried about them both being at the conference because Allison was non-confrontational. #badenclay
• Gerard: I really had no concern at all. #badenclay
• Gerard says Toni did have a volatile nature but in a public environment was always able to control herself. #badenclay
• Gerard says Toni was volatile but in public was always able to control herself #badenclay
• Gerard: I really had no concern at all #badenclay
• Allison was just never likely to make a scene #badenclay
• Gerard has been given his wife's journal. #badenclay
• Gerard appears subdued on the stand as he answers questions from his defence barrister Michael Byrne #badenclay
• #badenclay re journal - most instances Allison's writing, floor plan of Toni's house done by GBC, squiggles by children. @abcnews
• Gerard is being shown a page from Allison's journal. He is being asked what a series of numbers mean. He doesn't know. #badenclay
• Slight pause as exhibits are put into place #badenclay
• Jury is looking at a note from Allison in which she says she doesn't want to be alone - she is afraid of failing in her marriage #badenclay
• Gerard has finished giving evidence. We are adjourned until 11.50am. #badenclay
• Gerard says he didn't know where it was kept. #badenclay
• Gerard says he doesn't know how long she had the journal. Some dates were a couple of years prior. #badenclay
• Gerard says he doesn't know how long his wife had been using her journal #badenclay
• #badenclay being shown Allison's diary where she wrote 'fear' and 'loneliness', but says doesn't know what it means. @7NewsBrisbane
• David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 57s
• He didn't know where she kept it, later told it was kept under her bedside table #badenclay
• And that ends Gerard's evidence #badenclay
• Defence has previously said they will call evidence about tidal flows at Kholo Creek and about 'serotonin syndrome' #badenclay
• The defence has submitted tidal information #badenclay
• Ashton Ward, from a company called Khemistry, did a time lapse video at Kholo Creek for the defence #badenclay
• The director of a time lapse recording co who filmed at Kholo Creek where Allison's body found, now testifying. #badenclay @7NewsBrisbane
• Earlier this year, he set up a camera near where Allison's body was found in the creek #badenclay
• The time lapse video initially had intervals of two minutes, then every three minutes #badenclay
• The jury is now going to see the video #badenclay
• Video was taken 12-22nd June 2014. Now being played for jury. #badenclay @abcnews
• The video was retrieved from Kholo Creek on June 20. It's being shown to the court #badenclay
• It begins on 12 June 2014 and shows water rising and falling against the river beds #badenclay
• Leaves can be seen moving in the water #badenclay
• Debris gets exposed and then covered up again. The water is muddy brown #badenclay
• The video shows debris such as branches floating back and forth along Kholo Creek with the tide over time #badenclay
• The jury is now seeing a second video taken from a slightly different angle #badenclay
• Logs, leaves and other debris can be seen moving along the creek. #badenclay
• Second video now being played. Has a closer view of area where Allison's body was found. @abcnews #badenclay
• Video has concluded, prosecutor now asking questions of defence witness #badenclay
• Fuller is asking about the timing of the time lapse footage. Fuller says one second of the footage equals 75 minutes. #badenclay
• The defence asks no questions of this witness - they just wanted to show the videos of water moving #badenclay
• Dr Michael Robertson is the next defence witness. #badenclay Mr Ward, from Khemistry, has been excused.
• Fuller says Mr Ward had no idea what area looked like in 2012 and there no markings on the footage to indicate where body was. #badenclay
• Next on the stand is Dr Michael Robertson, a forensic toxicologist. #badenclay
• He's been practicing for 18 years #badenclay
• Dr Robertson did a file review on Allison Baden-Clay @abcnews #badenclay
• Dr Robertson did a file review and report on the postmortem results #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says Sertraline is an anti-depressant, is sold as Zoloft #badenclay
• He is talking about chemicals normally found in anti-depressants such as Zoloft #badenclay
• Dr Robertson: primary function of the medication is to improve mood #badenclay
• Dr Robertson is discussing seratonin, a mood altering chemical in the brain. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson: Sertraline increases levels of serotonin in the brain #badenclay
• Dr Robertson: once ingested it breaks down to metabolites #badenclay
• Dr Robertson prepared a review of Allison's autopsy results, in particular focussing on levels of sertraline. @9NewsBrisbane #badenclay
• Dr Robertson is talking about the levels of Sertraline in Allison's blood, stomach and liver. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says the average levels of Sertraline for someone taking the drug would be .03 to .05mg per kg in the blood. #badenclay
• The level in blood taken from Allison was elevated, twelvefold #badenclay
• This is compared with somebody alive #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says "relative to clinical numbers", Allison's reading was high at .059. #badenclay
• The judge is asking what the point of this comparison is, comparing Allison's result with someone who is alive. #badenclay
• Justice John Byrne asks if Dr Robertson is comparing to someone alive. He is. #badenclay
• Mr Robertson says drug concentrations can both increase and decrease after death. Drug concentrations redistribute. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says he has studied the way these drugs behave after death #badenclay
• They can move from the liver to the blood for example #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says there can be redistribution of the drug around the body after death #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says studies have shown areas like legs are less susceptible to redistribution. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says studies show Sertraline doesn't move much 24 to 48 hours after death. #badenclay

 

[FigTree]

continued:
• Dr Robertson says the drugs in Allison's system don't tend to move around in the 48 hours after death #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says Allison's higher reading could be from redistribution or taking more of the drug. #badenclay
• It it might just be unusual #badenclay
• Sertraline doesn't move much 24 to 48 hours after death - Dr Robertson #badenclay
• Or the sample might be contaminated in some way #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says common adverse effects include anxiety, confusion, elevated temperature #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says side effects from taking Sertraline could include anxiety, agitation, confusion, thermoregulation. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says another is Seratonin Syndrome - unusual behaviours, elevation of body temperature. #badenclay
• Toxicologist saying ingesting more than 100mg of sertraline may have led to elevated levels. @9NewsBrisbane #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says another is Seratonin Syndrome - unusual behaviours, elevation of body temperature. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says you can then move into a state of serotonin syndrome, can involve unusual behaviours #badenclay
• The drugs affect brain chemistry #badenclay
• One adverse affect can be increased likelihood of suicide - it varies between individuals #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says there can be mixed results and effects, that's why there's numerous medications to treat the same problem #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says Seratonin Syndrome happens when your seratonin levels are too high. #badenclay
• It's not always easy to get the balance right which is why some drugs don't work on some people and do work on others #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says this can lead to increased agitation, unusual behaviours, confusion, problems with muscle control. #badenclay
• It's also why there are so many different types of these drugs: it takes time to figure out which one might work #badenclay
• People who use these drugs tend to be depressed #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says studies show people on anti depressants have a higher risk of suicide. #badenclay
• Medications adjust brain chemistry, take four to five weeks to perform, can be negatives in that time #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says its not clear why, but it could be because the drugs interfere with brain chemistry #badenclay
• Toxicologist tells #badenclay jury, studies show individuals on anti-depressants 'more likely' to commit suicide. @7NewsBrisbane
• That's why there are warning leaflets in the packets #badenclay
• Prosecutor Todd Fuller now questioning Dr Robertson #badenclay
• Dr Robertson agrees there were only trace levels of Sertraline in her stomach. #badenclay
• The Crown notes that levels of the drug in Allison's stomach were very low #badenclay
• Dr Robertson agrees because of redistribution after death, it was possible there was no Sertraline in Allison's stomach at all. #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison was a long time Zoloft user, wouldn't be a naive patient, would have a tolerance. Dr Robertson agrees #badenclay
• The doctor agrees that based on her stomach levels she may have had no tablets in her stomach at all at time of death #badenclay
• Prosecution questioning the toxicologist, he agrees Allison #badenclay would have had a tolerance to Zoloft after 8 or 9 yrs.@7NewsBrisbane
• Defence expert agrees that Allison Baden-Clay may not have taken any Zoloft at the time of her death. @7NewsBrisbane #badenclay
• The doctor agrees that Allison's body had been decaying for 10 or 11 days before the post mortem #badenclay
• The toxicologist says the 'syndrome' he mentioned earlier, often body adjusting to new drug. #badenclay @7NewsBrisbane
• Fuller says changes after death can affect drug levels. Dr Robertson agrees #badenclay
• He agrees that death can affect the way the levels appear in the body #badenclay
• He says 'post mortem re-distribution' refers to the way the levels move around after death #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says concentrations will increase in central region of the body more so than peripheral, ie legs. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says the study he referred to doesn't talk about how long the people had been deceased. #badenclay
• The position of the body can also make a difference #badenclay
• Chemicals in the blood can end up back in the liver, for example #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says another study dealt with people who had been dead 24 to 48 hours. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson agrees the people in that study had 20-fold concentrations in liver after 24/48 hrs. Allison's liver was 10-fold. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says broadly speaking, Sertraline is considered low toxicity. #badenclay
• He agrees that the drug taken by Allison - Zoloft - is low toxicity #badenclay
• Dr Robertson agrees the levels of Sertraline in Allison's liver are not consistent with an acute overdose leading to death. #badenclay
• It is also difficult to die from a Zoloft overdose #badenclay
• Defence expert Dr Robertson says levels of Sertraline in liver of Allison #badenclay were not consistent with acute deadly overdose
• Toxicologist says sertraline levels in Allison #badenclay 's liver not consistent with acute overdose leading to death. @7NewsBrisbane
• Dr Robertson says he can't completely explain the elevated levels of drug in some parts of Allison's body. #badenclay
• The doctor agrees that he cannot explain the elevated levels of Zoloft in Allison's system #badenclay
• Dr Robertson agrees the levels in Allison's body are not consistent with Sertraline related deaths. #badenclay
• It may well be caused by the decomposition of her body #badenclay
• Had Allison been alive with that level of drug in her body, he would have expected very confused behaviour #badenclay
• Stomach contents inconsistent with ingestion of significant quantity of drug shortly before death - Dr Robertson #badenclay
• Dr Robertson says Allison's stomach contents were inconsistent with ingesting significant quantity of Sertraline before death. #badenclay
• Dr Robertson has been excused. #badenclay
• David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 27s
• Dr Robertson has finished giving evidence #badenclay
• Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 38s
• Defence witness Dr Mark Schramm has been called to the stand. #badenclay
• Defence witness Dr Mark Schramm called to give evidence #badenclay
• Dr Schramm is a psychiatrist with 20 years experience. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says a lot of his work is in forensic psychology. #badenclay
• He's worked with prisoners, and also helps courts understand how mental health can impact upon a person #badenclay
• Dr Schramm has prepared a report based on Allison's psychiatric and medical records. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm prepared report after viewing Allison #badenclay 's medical/psychiatric records. Had it peer reviewed. @7NewsBrisbane
• Dr Schramm says his report was "proof read" and approved by a professor of psychology who specialises in suicide. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says he has seen consultation notes, Allison's GP file, psychiatrist notes, counsellor notes, autopsy report. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm did a report using autopsy report, mental health history, medical records, court transcripts #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says he has also seen Dr George's testimony and Ms Ritchie's. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm: it had a longitudinal course that waxed and waned #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says Allison seemed to complain of a depressed mood, self doubt, lack of confidence, anxiety. #badenclay
• Dr Schram says Allison complained of a depressed mood, self doubt, low self confidence and anxiety over many years #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says anyone can have panic attacks. Anyone with anxiety is prone to them. #badenclay
• Anyone prone to anxiety is prone to panic attacks - Dr Schramm #badenclay
• He says Allison may have been susceptible to panic attacks because of her anxiety #badenclay
• He believes Allison's panic attacks might have been why she sought help in the first place #badenclay
• Dr Schramm asked if there's any link between major depression and suicide. He says there is. #badenclay @abcnews
• About 3.4 per cent of people with depression will take their lives - Dr Schramm #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says 3.4% of people with depression commit suicide, most people do not leave a note.
• Dr Schramm: more than half of people who commit suicide do not leave a note. 1/10 to 1/3 do leave notes. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm: It's not uncommon that suicide is a surprise to loved ones. #badenclay
• Even in retrospect it can be difficult to predict #badenclay
• Dr Schramm: folly to say you can predict it simply because you have a degree #badenclay
• Dr Schramm: end of the day it's a guess, not uncommon for experts to miss it #badenclay
• Upsetting evidence now on suicide for many reading tweets in the #badenclay trial. Do contact @LifelineAust if concerned. @7NewsBrisbane
• You can never confidently say that a particular person is at no risk of suicide #badenclay
• Dr Schramm: it's foolish to be completely confident one isn't going to take their own life #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says it is foolish to be completely confident that someone with a history of depression isn't going to take their life.#badenclay
• The Crown is now questioning Dr Schram #badenclay
• Dr Schram agrees he never met Allison #badenclay
• Dr Schramm is now being cross examined by prosecutor Danny Boyle. #badenclay
• Prosecutor Danny Boyle begins cross, says Dr Schramm hasn't interviewed anyone. Witness agrees #badenclay
• Dr Schramm is being asked about maternal attachment. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says maternal attachment would count against suicide risk. #badenclay
• And he agrees that his remarks about suicide are general in nature, not specific to Allison #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says his comments are general only, not specifically about Allison #badenclay
• Boyle says a mother's attachment can protect against suicide. Dr Schramm agrees, but says can never rule it out #badenclay
• Maternal attachment "is something that goes against the argument that she (Allison) was suicidal" #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says if there was no triggering event, that would also count against risk of suicide. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm agrees that a person making short and long terms plans would also be at lower risk of suicide. #badenclay
• Caroline Overington ‏@overingtonc 45s
• People can make either short or long term plans - and still go on to commit suicide #badenclay
• Mr Baden-Clay has repeatedly pointed to his wife's history with depression to suggest she took her own life.
• Allison seemed to put her hand up when she needed to help - Dr Schramm #badenclay
• He agrees that depression can worsen in pregnancy #badenclay
• Allison's history showed a reasonable response to Zoloft, though sometimes took months #badenclay
• She was in remission due in no small part to Sertraline #badenclay
• The records show she went to GP in March complaining of mood swings - Dr Schramm #badenclay
• When Allison saw counsellor the week she vanished there was only a reference to feeling inadequate #badenclay
• Dr Schram says he can't say from the records when Allison was last 'actively depressed' #badenclay
• Dr Schramm says he's dealing with scant notes and hadn't interviewed Allison #badenclay
• 'But, as I say, I've never interviewed her,' Dr Schram says. #badenclay
• Dr Schramm: "one could imagine the stress associated with problems in the marriage could of contributed to thoughts of suicide" #badenclay
• Dr Shramm says I accept also going to marriage counsellor may have given Allison #badenclay some hope that something was being done
• Dr Schramm: when depressed, view the world differently. Not rose coloured glasses. Grey coloured #badenclay
• Psychiatrist tells #badenclay jury when people are depressed, they look at life through 'grey coloured glasses'.
• Dr Schramm says it's consistent with the GP assessing Allison was depressed #badenclay
• Dr Schram says Allison's symptoms are 'not inconsistent' with the idea that she had been suffering depression #badenclay
• The witness is excused #badenclay
• Michael Byrne QC says that is the case for the defence. #badenclay
• That is the case for the defence #badenclay @couriermail
• Justice John Byrne tells the jury they will return Monday at 10am for closing remarks and summing up #badenclay @couriermail
• Justice John Byrne says that means all the evidence has been given. #badenclay
• The jury has been excused until 10am Monday. #badenclay

 

[BJsleuth]

70. Gerard has a public face which is ethical, moral and upstanding. A lot of that is legacy fuelled due to his great grandfather. He is involved in all the right groups but it's always about what's in it for him. He is politically saucy. I know that Bruce Flegg and Gerard have a relationship where they talk. I don't think these are genuine interactions with persons. He would lecture staff about lying but would continue this long term affair. I didn't appreciate how he could talk to me about being deceptive when he was living a lie.

71. Gerard's relationship is very unique. His mother is very protective of Gerard. They are a family where what you see isn't what you et. The family is very much about the legacy. I was told that when they came to Australia they came with a surname of CLAY and had it changed to BADEN-CLAY. His father Nigel is a great guy but I think there is a very manipulative side to him. When I returned to Australia I received a phone call from Nigel looking for some signs. He made a comment like I hope this is the end of the shenanigans. At the time that comment seemed strange to me. If your son had an affair why would you call it shenanigans? I was lead to believe that he had borrowed money against a property he and Allison had on the Gold coast in order to pay his parents back.

72. The only time he made a weird statement to me about cheating on Allison was when I was in the office with possibly Ben. I asked him how he got into this situation and he said something like its alot like being a baby shaker you don't think you are a baby shaker until your caught shaking a baby.

Thanks Poss. It was that one. I made a mistake. I remember it was that one because I thought 72 was a very strange thing to say.

 

[ollijack]

I agree and thats perhaps why the Baden Clay family aside from Gerard should not be so continually judged and ripped to shreds on this site. Perhaps they are just a family that has values such as loyalty, pride, unity and support of each other. In other circumstances these values would be admired and supported. These values are what makes strong communities and societies. Strong family values are the pillars of society. The Baden Clays too loved and respected Allison I am sure. Gerard has made some very very poor choices as evidenced in court over the past few days. His family on the other hand have stood by their values. How would they be judged if they had not supported him? A parent loves unconditionally even when they don't like or approve of choices or behaviours their children make.

Bolded by me

I so strongly disagree with this sentence......really really strongly :tantrum:

 

[sosocurious]

You'd think so. I have to say I'm surprised OW was allowed to leave to take the girls to school.

She did take off with the girls immediately the police arrived.

 

[SwiftSleuth]

Hi All,

Long time lurker (many years) and first time poster.

I must first open by congratulating and thanking all of you for your thoughtful, caring, learned and often funny posts. You all really sound and act like a caring community. I have laughed and cried along with all of you but have chosen to stay anonymous until now.

I've never written on any forum in my life but thought I had to after reading about the Forensic Toxicologist (Dr. Michael Robertson) who testified on behalf of the defence yesterday. please see link (article) below.

'Killer links Aussie lover'
http://www.news.com.au/national/killer-links-aussie-lover/story-e6frfkp9-1225777012294

I'm not suggesting or implying anything untoward in his testimony and agree with most sentiments that it didn't help the defence in any way. I just though of all the toxicologists in Australia they could've chosen a reputable one without a history.

Again thank you all for the past few years in relation to this case.

Thanks,
SwiftSleuth

 

[sosocurious]

I agree and thats perhaps why the Baden Clay family aside from Gerard should not be so continually judged and ripped to shreds on this site. Perhaps they are just a family that has values such as loyalty, pride, unity and support of each other. In other circumstances these values would be admired and supported. These values are what makes strong communities and societies. Strong family values are the pillars of society. The Baden Clays too loved and respected Allison I am sure. Gerard has made some very very poor choices as evidenced in court over the past few days. His family on the other hand have stood by their values. How would they be judged if they had not supported him? A parent loves unconditionally even when they don't like or approve of choices or behaviours their children make.

Support v's enabling

 

[Zim]

Please spare a thought for Allison's eldest daughter who turns 13 years old today ! She would be very sad on a day that is supposed to be happy.
Happy Birthday Little one. Hugs !
:cupcake:

 

[DrWatson]

FigTree - absolutely superb effort there, correlating all those tweets. Fan-bloody-tastic!!

If there was a WS Special Effort Award, you'd be nominated for one for that work alone, apart from all the other great contributions.

Thanks for doing that. All now duly copied and pasted in sequence into a doc file

 

[JK673]

I agree and thats perhaps why the Baden Clay family aside from Gerard should not be so continually judged and ripped to shreds on this site. Perhaps they are just a family that has values such as loyalty, pride, unity and support of each other. In other circumstances these values would be admired and supported. These values are what makes strong communities and societies. Strong family values are the pillars of society. The Baden Clays too loved and respected Allison I am sure. Gerard has made some very very poor choices as evidenced in court over the past few days. His family on the other hand have stood by their values. How would they be judged if they had not supported him? A parent loves unconditionally even when they don't like or approve of choices or behaviours their children make.

I always try to see the good in people as well but actions always speak louder than words I am afraid. I have always had a good sense of intuition and discernment when it comes to people and their actions but, I am sorry, I feel that the Clay Clan are just too shady to placate me.

 

[BJsleuth]

Thank you for the link BJ, reading it again after GBC's time in the stand leads to more questions.

GBC had no qualms telling a friend, BB, that he loved Toni and it was sacrifice staying with his wife for the kids. He didn't have to lie to BB, so my thoughts are he lied in court about this relationship (it was just sex) or, there was a reason to lie to BB, GBC worried TM might hear if he said anything but that he loved her. jmo

Placating. Appeasing. It seems he will say whatever it takes to get what he wants.

 

[ford71]

...............
72. The only time he made a weird statement to me about cheating on Allison was when I was in the office with possibly Ben. I asked him how he got into this situation and he said something like its alot like being a baby shaker you don't think you are a baby shaker until your caught shaking a baby.

What is this weirdness?!?

The more I read, the stranger he becomes.


Also, I hope we get to see a scan of your piece before it is sent off ODDSOCKS

 

[sosocurious]

hi all,

long time lurker (many years) and first time poster.

I must first open by congratulating and thanking all of you for your thoughtful, caring, learned and often funny posts. You all really sound and act like a caring community. I have laughed and cried along with all of you but have chosen to stay anonymous until now.

I've never written on any forum in my life but thought i had to after reading about the forensic toxicologist (dr. Michael robertson) who testified on behalf of the defence yesterday. Please see link (article) below.

'killer links aussie lover'
http://www.news.com.au/national/killer-links-aussie-lover/story-e6frfkp9-1225777012294

i'm not suggesting or implying anything untoward in his testimony and agree with most sentiments that it didn't help the defence in any way. I just though of all the toxicologists in australia they could've chosen a reputable one without a history.

Again thank you all for the past few years in relation to this case.

Thanks,
swiftsleuth

wow!!

 

[Neuromancer]

My many affairs ......... Would be surprised if this wasn't picked up by others in Court (towards he very end), but for my part ........ I believe this bit of evidence by him was in keeping with what he has felt the need to do all along when presenting his own diatribe ....... that he needs to reinforce his own ego by saying something to qualify that he always was in control of everything, and also in counselling or making suggestions ...... e.g. his ego boost to himself (and for the benefit of others) that many women have 'thrown themselves' at him, and he has obliged in that respect.

...... and he now regrets that he tried to help them!!!!!

Yes - after the ego battering he got from Fuller he had to grab any chance to boost himself up again (in his eyes).
Preservation of the false ego is the #1 motivation of the narcissist.

 

[DrWatson]

I've never written on any forum in my life but thought I had to after reading about the Forensic Toxicologist (Dr. Michael Robertson) who testified on behalf of the defence yesterday. please see link (article) below.

'Killer links Aussie lover'
http://www.news.com.au/national/killer-links-aussie-lover/story-e6frfkp9-1225777012294

I'm not suggesting or implying anything untoward in his testimony and agree with most sentiments that it didn't help the defence in any way. I just though of all the toxicologists in Australia they could've chosen a reputable one without a history.

Wow..! Well sleuthed.

So not only is he implicated in the death, but he also did the toxicology for the autopsy - and the victim was his lover's husband - who died of POISONING??? A toxicologist's lover's husband dies of POISONING?

As you say - that is some baggage to be carrying around, especially if you're going to be testifying in court as an expert witness - they are supposed to be reputable.

Of course, that article you link to is all about allegations, but still .....

And I repeat... WOW!!

 

[JK673]

Hi All,

Long time lurker (many years) and first time poster.

I must first open by congratulating and thanking all of you for your thoughtful, caring, learned and often funny posts. You all really sound and act like a caring community. I have laughed and cried along with all of you but have chosen to stay anonymous until now.

I've never written on any forum in my life but thought I had to after reading about the Forensic Toxicologist (Dr. Michael Robertson) who testified on behalf of the defence yesterday. please see link (article) below.

'Killer links Aussie lover'
http://www.news.com.au/national/killer-links-aussie-lover/story-e6frfkp9-1225777012294

I'm not suggesting or implying anything untoward in his testimony and agree with most sentiments that it didn't help the defence in any way. I just though of all the toxicologists in Australia they could've chosen a reputable one without a history.

Again thank you all for the past few years in relation to this case.

Thanks,
SwiftSleuth

Wasn't one of the defence witnesses a friend of Pastor Baden Walton Clay?? Was it Dr Robertson???

 

[SwiftSleuth]

Thanks Doc.

I've been waiting and waiting to get on this forum for a few days now to share this little tidbit of info.

I thought I recognised his name and then ignored it for a little while as it is not the most unique name around.

Wow..! Well sleuthed.

So not only is he implicated in the death, but he also did the toxicology for the autopsy - and the victim was his lover's husband - who died of POISONING??? A toxicologist's lover's husband dies of POISONING?

As you say - that is some baggage to be carrying around, especially if you're going to be testifying in court as an expert witness - they are supposed to be reputable.

Of course, that article you link to is all about allegations, but still .....

And I repeat... WOW!!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Regarding a verdict of manslaughter,wouldn't GBC need to plead guilty to killing Allison for him to receive a less harsh sentence? Surely it can't be manslaughter if he denies killing her under any circumstance?

Please Alioop, if you can help or anyone knowledgeable in law. TIA

Each case I've looked up the accused has agreed to killing the victim.

 

[BJsleuth]

Hi All,

Long time lurker (many years) and first time poster.

I must first open by congratulating and thanking all of you for your thoughtful, caring, learned and often funny posts. You all really sound and act like a caring community. I have laughed and cried along with all of you but have chosen to stay anonymous until now.

I've never written on any forum in my life but thought I had to after reading about the Forensic Toxicologist (Dr. Michael Robertson) who testified on behalf of the defence yesterday. please see link (article) below.

'Killer links Aussie lover'
http://www.news.com.au/national/killer-links-aussie-lover/story-e6frfkp9-1225777012294

I'm not suggesting or implying anything untoward in his testimony and agree with most sentiments that it didn't help the defence in any way. I just though of all the toxicologists in Australia they could've chosen a reputable one without a history.

Again thank you all for the past few years in relation to this case.

Thanks,
SwiftSleuth

Wow. That was at least unethical for him to be involved in the forensic testing. He should have removed himself from doing so.

 

[FigTree]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftSleuth View Post

I've never written on any forum in my life but thought I had to after reading about the Forensic Toxicologist (Dr. Michael Robertson) who testified on behalf of the defence yesterday. please see link (article) below.

'Killer links Aussie lover'
http://www.news.com.au/national/kill...-1225777012294

I'm not suggesting or implying anything untoward in his testimony and agree with most sentiments that it didn't help the defence in any way. I just though of all the toxicologists in Australia they could've chosen a reputable one without a history.

Wow..! Well sleuthed.

So not only is he implicated in the death, but he also did the toxicology for the autopsy - and the victim was his lover's husband - who died of POISONING??? A toxicologist's lover's husband dies of POISONING?

As you say - that is some baggage to be carrying around, especially if you're going to be testifying in court as an expert witness - they are supposed to be reputable.

Of course, that article you link to is all about allegations, but still .....

And I repeat... WOW!!
__________________

Great sleuthing and post SwiftSleuth!

Well that puts a new spin on what he said yesterday ...

• Dr Robertson says Allison's higher reading could be from redistribution or taking more of the drug. #badenclay
• It it might just be unusual #badenclay
• Sertraline doesn't move much 24 to 48 hours after death - Dr Robertson #badenclay
• Or the sample might be contaminated in some way #badenclay

I seriously think yesterdays Defense was ummm ... less than magnificent... or do I mean was magnificent... or just a bit weird.

.