General Discussion and Theories #3

[redheart]

It's pretty common to purchase used heavy equipment through auctions, and the equipment usually has the name of the previous company on it. People send equipment from all over to these auctions. I know an earthmoving company from Ontario who has purchased used equipment from all over North America, and even Europe.
The company name on DM's excavator has no connection, IMO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Thanks, but I don't see any connection between the Canadian company Bird and its subsidiary H. J. O'Connell Ltd and the O'Connell Excavation and Septic in Weedsport, New York that the phone number matches up with.

Sorry, I thought I had found a Canadian connection at one time. I'm not at home right now and that one looked familiar.

 

[dizzy1]

Respectfully, what I am confused about AA is why not one of the over 100 LE involved would have the same thought that every single sleuther had here when they found out that there were barrels in that barn. Why, even if the warrant they had didn't cover it, no one thought to see if they could get a warrant to cover looking under the hay or in the barrels? I am not sure if your training can answer those questions, unfortunately. If, as you suggest in another post, they themselves were not fully trained to discern if it was relevant or not, they could have asked whoever was overseeing them for guidance, could they not?

That is very confusing to me, I mean, if they genuinely wanted to find a missing woman or clues to TB's death, doesn't it only make sense that they look into the barrels or under the hay at the time that they first noticed them? Even if they had to guard them while they waited a few days for another warrant, it would have been just a part of due diligence, in my opinion.

I am trying to find a logical reason why they wouldn't search it at the time that does not involve a conspiracy theory or insinuate incompetency, respectfully, but I cannot believe that it would have been harder to get a warrant for the barn than it would be to get one for the hanger and his home, especially if even one LE spied even one barrel or realized the wealth of evidence that could have been hidden under that hay.

<snip>
Hopefully, this will put an end to the 'confusion' on your part, and the suggestion of possible 'incompetency' on LE's part:

The head of the Toronto homicide squad, Staff Insp. Greg McLane, said police actually found the barrels on Monday, when they began executing a search warrant. He said the OPP&#8217;s specialized team was not required to test the barrels until Friday as part of the &#8220;examination process.&#8221;

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...elevant_to_missing_woman_case_police_say.html

HTH

 

[SnooperDuper]

It's pretty common to purchase used heavy equipment through auctions, and the equipment usually has the name of the previous company on it. People send equipment from all over to these auctions. I know an earthmoving company from Ontario who has purchased used equipment from all over North America, and even Europe.
The company name on DM's excavator has no connection, IMO.

There is a major vehicle and equipment auction house, M.R. Jutzi, located on the northwest side (practically on top of) of the airport and it would be hard to believe DM never went there. I be that is where the excavator came from.

 

[matou]

I've seen some photos of blue barrels in the back of the trailer that DM and friends took to the Baja race. They have "World Leader in Race Fuel Technology" printed on them.

 

[Arnie M]

The O'CONNELL EXCAVATION co. from Weedsport NY is in the septic tank business so that would fit perfectly with DM's requirements for water and sewer for his new house .... less of a perfect fit is why he would use an American company , but maybe there were no local Ontario contractors who could do it at the time.

Often construction companies are either starving or overbooked so being transient is part of normal life for them .... who knows , maybe O'Connell already was doing work in the area .... possibly even at the new hangar while it was being built . Remember the project manager for the hangar was from the USA (Arizona).

Some types of business can operate seamlessly on both sides of the border , providing it makes economic sense , and since the 2008 economic downturn , nobody is building new houses in the USA ... however Canada continues just fine.

Sewer and water for a rural home that meets modern standards can be $25k to $75k or higher .... to haul a trackhoe from NY to Ont only cost $1k for fuel and driver , and take 3-4 hours , not a big deal in the construction trade.

If that is the case , there should be a brand new underground septic tank and septic field at the DM farm which would fit perfectly with new home plans.

ps: as mentioned by others in earlier posts, the Bird Construction subsidiary "H. J. O'Connell Ltd" and the "O'Connell Excavation Co" are not related

There are abundant legitimate reasons for DM to have such equipment there , and a minimum of illegitimate reasons

In nefarious situations OC has been known to bury huge trucking containers underground for grow-ops in remote areas .... but if that was the case I can guarantee the sleuthing neighbors would have an album full of pictures for us.

Just as the 54 old barrels were not pertinent to the case , neither will the backhoe be.

 

[redheart]

I'd be pretty shocked if that was a contractor's excavator, hired by DM. I think he probably owns it.
It wouldn't be likely that someone would float a beat up old CAT from NY to ON to do a job, and then that excavator need major repairs (based on cowling being open, propane heaters - signs of lengthy repair). I worked a decade in the heavy equipment business and it usually costs close to $1000 a trip for the decent companies to float a machine 200 km or less within ON. I think cross border would be significantly more. Not that it really matters - I think you're right that the excavator probably won't play a part in this in the end.

 

[Archangel7]

Respectfully, what I am confused about AA is why not one of the over 100 LE involved would have the same thought that every single sleuther had here when they found out that there were barrels in that barn. Why, even if the warrant they had didn't cover it, no one thought to see if they could get a warrant to cover looking under the hay or in the barrels?

I am trying to find a logical reason why they wouldn't search it at the time that does not involve a conspiracy theory or insinuate incompetency, respectfully, but I cannot believe that it would have been harder to get a warrant for the barn than it would be to get one for the hanger and his home, especially if even one LE spied even one barrel or realized the wealth of evidence that could have been hidden under that hay.

And in my opinion, they must have spotted at least one barrel, especially when you see the picture above for reference on how much space they would take up.

Also, I agree with Arnie that the barrels are probably there because they were filled with leftovers too valuable to scrap, and if he was like his father, he was frugal (they could quite easily be left over from WM as well) and I think that they could be the junk AS wanted moved from the hanger that we didn't see in the photos of it looking clean and tidy. And if that were the case, there would have been no need to hide them, they would likely have been out in plain sight, begging to investigated by the first officer to lay eyes on them.

selectively and rsbm........

You are correct on the 1st half of you above stated assessment, it didn't involve a conspiracy theory........you pretty much correctly evaluated the balance of it though.

I've never seen a literal, open ended warrant, but I've not seen every warrant in captivity either. It must be different in TO. Not every "constable" and up has the ability, permission, authority or training to initiate a warrant. Yes they "should" be able to go to someone above them to do that warrant initiation.

However you have read the MSM reports of who said what about the warrant dates, then when it expired, the SL info and TPS response, the LB cell phone bills, the family statements and watched their lead detective at the pressers. I believe the top Leadership also mentioned the Warrant time period as being open ended.

Add all of that up then ask yourself if you were the Judge, just how strict you'd be on a warrant issued or how quick you'd be to issue it.

Now couple that with the usual, customary and strict lawful process required to procure a proper legal search warrant and some understanding begins to come to light of the situation.

So it may be as simple as they didn't have the necessary legal requirements necessary for a search warrant to do as you believe.

It may be as simple as they were limited by their own inability to assess and determine a need for such a search warrant.

It may be a combination of the two.

The executed search warrant is public info and can be reviewed unless sealed or nothing is found( the weight of the protection of the innocent outweighs the public need to know nothing was found) I believe the Attorney General of NS vs a CBC reporter MacIntyre, I think........
take it with a grain until I find the SCC ruling........


ETA......I was off a little, the name was McIntyre not MacIntyre and a television Journalist, not a reporter, Grainger is the issuing Judge and the case is.......

The Attorney General of Nova Scotia and Ernest Harold Grainger Appellants;

and

Linden MacIntyre Respondent; and

The Attorney General of Canada, the Attorney General for Ontario, the Attorney General of Quebec, the Attorney General for New Brunswick, the Attorney General of British Columbia, the Attorney General for Saskatchewan and the Attorney General for Alberta Interveners;

and

Canadian Civil Liberties Association Intervener.

http://scc.lexum.org/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2433/index.do

 

[robynhood]

I agree..with some of what you said...Jubalee...in that this reporting is very confusing....reports say unlimited ..and said TILL they find what is REQUIRED >>>>than we see them stop...the search???.....Obviously confusing...but we do not have any details to why they went or what they found....PB.

JMO here...due to the PB ...we only hear that it stopped...we do not know what they found...and maybe it needs further analysis away in the LAb it was taken to ...in Toronto?? and they will be back POSSIBLY...PLUS we do not know" WHY" or "WHAT NEW INFO" sent them there again...only thing that was said that it had to do with LB...which is very disturbing ...I find...IMO...robynhood.

 

[Snoofo]

Wrt "privileged conversations" referred to by DP to the Globe and Mail, I am thinking there may be talks of downgrading charges if the many searches came up with nothing further incriminating. The Crown, in proceeding with such talks, would want security which may be based on the thorough search at the farm but that may not be a good enough reason to get a warrant, so bring in TPS with LB as a good excuse to search. If it is clear, or things there align with any info from DM via DP, maybe they will agree to a downgrade of charge and DM will seek bail. Jmo.

I cannot shake the feeling that LB was used for another purpose, although searching the farm didn't hurt the search for her; it was a good thing. I just do not think they went looking for LB in the barn on a tip of finding evidence of her there. Moo.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/t...o-search-farm/article14239837/?service=mobile

 

[Sillybilly]

Wrt "privileged conversations" referred to by DP to the Globe and Mail, I am thinking there may be talks of downgrading charges if the many searches came up with nothing further incriminating.

He could also be referring to solicitor/client privilege ... the private conversations he has had with his client.

 

[Snoofo]

He could also be referring to solicitor/client privilege ... the private conversations he has had with his client.

I concur, that is a strong possibility. Just trying to think out of the box in terms of my feelings about the "new information".

I think if they are going on a lead causing such a huge operation searching for Laura, they would start communicating with her family as though this was something close to a homicide investigation.

Five days of experts at the farm but not serious enough about LB to pay a visit to the family to talk about what is going on? I don't expect them to give details "so and so told us this..." But something more of a heads up like the tip came from Crimestoppers line or the information stemmed from the last search lab results... Or specifically, that they are looking for DNA evidence that LB had been at the farm after her disappearance...something! Why is it they tell LB's parents absolutely nothing? It seems they gave them a phone call Monday to advise her name would be in the news again. I believe families are given a little more than this. If the Babcocks had been given more info, they wouldn't be voicing their complaints for the lack of info :moo:

This is why I continue to consider this "new information" nugget and what it really means.

 

[Archangel7]

If DP didn't review the ITO and/or the search warrant pertaining to his client or at least ask MB what were they searching for, his nose is growing or he's incompetent when he replies......

"He said he did not know why Toronto police launched their second search of Mr. Millard’s farm near Kitchener, Ont., on Monday, or why they waited until Tuesday to notify Mr. Millard’s mother, Madeleine Burns."

Maybe she believes DM is involved and isn't assisting.........however DP should still know(as his lawyer) why TPS searched his client's property.

 

[Archangel7]

I concur, that is a strong possibility. Just trying to think out of the box in terms of my feelings about the "new information".

I think if they are going on a lead causing such a huge operation searching for Laura, they would start communicating with her family as though this was something close to a homicide investigation.

Five days of experts at the farm but not serious enough about LB to pay a visit to the family to talk about what is going on? I don't expect them to give details "so and so told us this..." But something more of a heads up like the tip came from Crimestoppers line or the information stemmed from the last search lab results... Or specifically, that they are looking for DNA evidence that LB had been at the farm after her disappearance...something! Why is it they tell LB's parents absolutely nothing? It seems they gave them a phone call Monday to advise her name would be in the news again. I believe families are given a little more than this. If the Babcocks had been given more info, they wouldn't be voicing their complaints for the lack of info :moo:

This is why I continue to consider this "new information" nugget and what it really means.

LE isn't going to say much to anyone until the evidence tells them what exactly happened to LB or anyone for that matter.

On missing persons and murder the "world population," ie. anyone/everyone is the suspect(s) until evidence says otherwise.

Plus an investigator doesn't want to contaminate his sources of information(the family in this case) by interjecting his case knowledge into their "database" of what they think they "remember."

On the privilege conversations......What lawyers discuss with other than their represented clients isn't privileged necessarily. I read it to mean conversations with DM.

 

[Snoofo]

LE isn't going to say much to anyone until the evidence tells them what exactly happened to LB or anyone for that matter.

On missing persons and murder the "world population," ie. anyone/everyone is the suspect(s) until evidence says otherwise.

Plus an investigator doesn't want to contaminate his sources of information(the family in this case) by interjecting his case knowledge into their "database" of what they think they "remember."

On the privilege conversations......What lawyers discuss with other than their represented clients isn't privileged necessarily. I read it to mean conversations with DM.

I did read privileged discussions with the meaning of discussions taking place on a "without prejudice" basis, which is different. Sorry it's been awhile since that lingo rested somewhere near the top of my head. Notwithstanding the misunderstanding, I still think this is a way of ruling out any chances of him being a serial killer before they entertain any plea deals. The timing is right. Does anyone else think that is possible?

Regarding your point bolded above, I find it interesting that someone like AM could be cleared in the TB case so early on but LB's parents could be considered suspects in their daughter's disappearance after all this time. I guess there was some pretty strong evidence (or something) in his favour.

I suppose the only way we will find out anything about the farm search is if DM is charged with something.

 

[Archangel7]

I did read privileged discussions with the meaning of discussions taking place on a "without prejudice" basis, which is different. Sorry it's been awhile since that lingo rested somewhere near the top of my head. Notwithstanding the misunderstanding, I still think this is a way of ruling out any chances of him being a serial killer before they entertain any plea deals. The timing is right. Does anyone else think that is possible?

Regarding your point bolded above, I find it interesting that someone like AM could be cleared in the TB case so early on but LB's parents could be considered suspects in their daughter's disappearance after all this time. I guess there was some pretty strong evidence (or something) in his favour.

I suppose the only way we will find out anything about the farm search is if DM is charged with something.

I doubt the parents are literal/actual "suspects", but an investigator never knows where the evidence will lead. I lean more toward there is no info for them to be told or LE may be waiting on some evidence to surface via testing from the recent search.


Perhaps you might also consider this possibility........

In reality, it is more likely that the various agencies and the Crown are investigating a missing person case and a murder case. Remember there is no discovery requirement for a charge that isn't laid........ So as an investigator on LB's case(with no charge laid)whatever evidence LE discovers is no business of an accused on a totally different case. However it would tell LE a lot about both cases, possibly. Eventually of course, any evidence discovered that would be used/needed in the TB murder case against DM would be under that discovery.

ETA I reread and missed one of you questions.&#8230;In T B's case there were witnesses and a body leaving no doubt of a crime and what happened. Apparently not as clear wrt witnesses, and if a crime was commited, just not as obvious as to what transpired.

 

[Juballee]

<snip>
Hopefully, this will put an end to the 'confusion' on your part, and the suggestion of possible 'incompetency' on LE's part:

[/b]

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...elevant_to_missing_woman_case_police_say.html

HTH

Is that correct? Teams of professionals searching the property for bodies on two separate occasions failed to notice that the only structure on the premise contained 54 barrels until the third time they searched, months later? That should definitely silence any critics, in my opinion.

 

[redheart]

.....

 

[LoyalSleuth]

.....

What does this mean? We are waiting, until then ( new info comes )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Alethea Dice]

Respectfully, what I am confused about AA is why not one of the over 100 LE involved would have the same thought that every single sleuther had here when they found out that there were barrels in that barn. Why, even if the warrant they had didn't cover it, no one thought to see if they could get a warrant to cover looking under the hay or in the barrels? I am not sure if your training can answer those questions, unfortunately. If, as you suggest in another post, they themselves were not fully trained to discern if it was relevant or not, they could have asked whoever was overseeing them for guidance, could they not?

That is very confusing to me, I mean, if they genuinely wanted to find a missing woman or clues to TB's death, doesn't it only make sense that they look into the barrels or under the hay at the time that they first noticed them? Even if they had to guard them while they waited a few days for another warrant, it would have been just a part of due diligence, in my opinion.

I am trying to find a logical reason why they wouldn't search it at the time that does not involve a conspiracy theory or insinuate incompetency, respectfully, but I cannot believe that it would have been harder to get a warrant for the barn than it would be to get one for the hanger and his home, especially if even one LE spied even one barrel or realized the wealth of evidence that could have been hidden under that hay.

And in my opinion, they must have spotted at least one barrel, especially when you see the picture above for reference on how much space they would take up. Hadn't they only taken a couple of boards out before they started bringing out barrels? I don't imagine that they built a bunker to hide all those barrels by covered it with only 2 boards.

Also, I agree with Arnie that the barrels are probably there because they were filled with leftovers too valuable to scrap, and if he was like his father, he was frugal (they could quite easily be left over from WM as well) and I think that they could be the junk AS wanted moved from the hanger that we didn't see in the photos of it looking clean and tidy. And if that were the case, there would have been no need to hide them, they would likely have been out in plain sight, begging to investigated by the first officer to lay eyes on them.

Juballee, I understand what you're saying and I don't know how many different ways it can be stated so that others will. And I also think you're right that it can't be answered or explained.

The first search of the farm by Hamilton LE on May 13th was searching for TB. The warrant at the time obviously included the barn since, according to JR's tweets, they searched it for 25 minutes.

Justin Robertson&#8207;@justinatthespec14 May
A police officer has been searching in the barn for 25 minutes. There are still police on horses on the property. pic.twitter.com/M7OWgOAjbX

During that search, they seem to have found TB's body fairly quickly. At that time, however, they did not yet know how he had died or where he was killed. Logic would tell some of us that, because that information was still unknown, they would have searched the barn more thoroughly looking for clues of whether he had been killed in the barn or perhaps for a murder weapon. The unknown is whether they didn't feel anything in the barn would be significant, or whether they didn't see the barrels for some reason, or whether they needed a more detailed search warrant to do that and it was either not applied for or not granted.

The other two searches by Toronto LE were for LB and are more understandable. The first one, at the end of May, was likely for a specific area that the tip lead them to. They found nothing and left. Without further evidence linking DM to her disappearance, they may have been restricted to the area identified in the tip.

Whatever lead Toronto LE back to the farm for a second search in regards to LB, it must have pointed them more directly to the barn. The barrels still don't seem to have been that much of a concern, since they actually found them on Monday, but they weren't required to be tested until Friday.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/09/17/barrels_on_dellen_millards_farm_not_relevant_to_missing_woman_case_police_say.html

Actually, this article says:

Although the farm was thoroughly searched twice in the past, defence lawyer Craig Parry says it’s not unusual to see police pay attention to different areas of the property upon return visits.

“In June, they may not have had any information that caused them to believe these barrels had any significance to any investigation,” he said.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/barrels-removed-from-millard-farm-as-chemical-response-team-called-in-1.1453489

And we do have to remember that these are two different LE agencies investigating two different cases.

It would be interesting to learn if anything was found in this last search with regards to LB. If nothing was found again, it starts to look like they're being sent on some wild goose chases.

JMO