General Discussion Thread #1 -Bail Hearing

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I think mention should be made that he has the best of the best on his team from private forensics to his lawyers....I imagine that they would never submit his statement with any details that couldn't be backed up or refuted? I'm curious to see what information the defence requested from the prosecution to be handed over first thing tomorrow?? Must be some kind of evidence that can back up his version of events??

I don't know how things work there.

In the U.S. defense attorneys most certainly will submit a statement as such in preparation for trial. The evidence is needed to be evaluated by experts for both the prosecution and defense. Most importantly, any in this case that can prove premeditation. This could very well be an accident, or not. Certainly, at this point, the defense can go with accident and his sentence would be much less. Unless, prosecution has some really damning evidence. Then trial and experts begin try to prove/disprove intent. Again, don't know how it works there.

I'm still on the fence.
 
Just getting it all here for those who haven't read:


The Olympian and Paralympian claimed that on 13 February, Steenkamp called him and suggested they spend the evening at his home, where they had a quiet dinner. By 10pm, the court heard, they were in the bedroom, she doing yoga and he in bed watching television, his prosthetic legs off. She then got into bed and they both fell asleep.

"We were deeply in love and could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine's Day but asked me only to open it the next day."

Pistorius said he was "acutely aware" of violent crimes committed by intruders. He had received death threats in the past and had been a victim of violence and burglary. For that reason he kept a 9mm Parabellum pistol under his bed at night.

The athlete woke up in the early hours of 14 February, he added, and went on to the balcony to bring a fan in and close the sliding doors, blinds and curtains.

"I heard a noise and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.

"I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed."

He went on: "I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.

"It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.

"I believe that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.

"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.

"When I reached the bed, I realised Reeva was not in the bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting on to the balcony and screamed for help."

Pistorius put on his prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open, he said. He went back to the bedroom to grab his cricket bat and smash open the toilet door. One or more panels broke off and he found the key so he was able to open it.

"Reeva was slumped over but alive. I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom."

Pistorius said he called an administrator of his estate and asked him to phone an ambulance and also called a private hospital. He carried Steenkamp, 29, downstairs so she could be taken to hospital. "Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms."

Pistorius reflected: "I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva. With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in. I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved.

"I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out."

The court also heard affidavits from friends of the couple. They spoke of how Pistorius and Steenkamp seemed very happy together, even if he was moving a little too fast for her in the relationship.

One said: "Oscar told me Reeva could be the girl he would one day marry."

Another, named Samantha, recalled: "Reeva told me that she really liked Oscar and they both clicked and understood each other." Pistorius treated her "like gold", Samantha added. "Reeva said if Oscar asked her to marry him, she would probably say yes."

At that, Pistorius bowed his head and wept.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/19/oscar-pistorius-weeps-riveting-testimony
 
I'm not sure if anything can be made of the door being locked though -many people lock the door to the toilet even if they just live as a couple, and maybe more especially when visiting a home and early in the relationship-I don't, but I know people do, some people are just like that and don't want to be walked in on, even by their lover
 
I may sound like I was born yesterday, but I believe him. Every word.

Having read some things he said in the past about his fear of intruders, he sounded exactly like the sort of person who would be paranoid enough to instantly think he had an intruder.
 
I'm not sure if anything can be made of the door being locked though -many people lock the door to the toilet even if they just live as a couple, and maybe more especially when visiting a home and early in the relationship-I don't, but I know people do, some people are just like that and don't want to be walked in on, even by their lover
In theory....the time from OP thinking there is an intruder to the actual shooting was more than likely 2 minutes or so ( time it, it's actually quite a long time when adrenalin is pumping)...so she is on the loo..hears him going nuts on the other side of the door about an intruder...a moment is spent being confused and uncertain as to what's happening...she remains silent and quickly locks the door ( thinking there is an intruder in the house)... As she does this, Oscar hears movement as claimed and starts shooting????? He only becomes aware of the door being locked after he realizes Reeva is not in bed.
 
I may sound like I was born yesterday, but I believe him. Every word.

Having read some things he said in the past about his fear of intruders, he sounded exactly like the sort of person who would be paranoid enough to instantly think he had an intruder.

Even if that is true I think the charge would still be murder, I don't think SA has the same right to kill laws that the US does. He got up, put his legs on and intentionally shot through a door where 'someone' was hiding. That's premeditated murder. There were other options, like running out of the house and calling police for instance - especially with someone locked in a small room. I don't think misidentification is much of a defence.
 
Even if that is true I think the charge would still be murder, I don't think SA has the same right to kill laws that the US does. He got up, put his legs on and intentionally shot through a door where 'someone' was hiding. That's premeditated murder. There were other options, like running out of the house and calling police for instance - especially with someone locked in a small room.

Absolutely, and this is one of the things that makes me convinced he is being truthful - he is admitting that he meant to kill the 'intruder', but he states that he had no idea that it was Reeva and he felt that he had to do it to defend himself and Reeva.
 
Even if that is true I think the charge would still be murder, I don't think SA has the same right to kill laws that the US does. He got up, put his legs on and intentionally shot through a door where 'someone' was hiding. That's premeditated murder. There were other options, like running out of the house and calling police for instance - especially with someone locked in a small room. I don't think misidentification is much of a defence.
Yes, he will still be up for a charge...manslaughter or culpable homicide ( not certain on which one it is)that would carry a significantly lighter sentence, possibly even a suspended sentence.
 
I haven't read this full thread, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed, but my heart sank when I read the bedroom door was locked, as well. If I'm reading the affidavit ( http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html ) correctly, it seems Pistorius is claiming he and Reeva were in a bedroom suite with a bathroom, including a door that closes off a small room with a toilet. He stated he felt trapped because the bedroom door was locked. Given what he stated about the way in which the bathroom door locks (with a key from the inside) I'm guessing this means the bedroom door also locks with a key from the inside and the key wasn't in the door to allow for easy egress. Otherwise, I don't understand why one would feel trapped. He also stated he closed the sliding door to the balcony immediately before this incident. Hypothetically speaking, if there was an altercation between the two, Reeva likely would have been trapped in that bedroom suite, as well. The toilet room would have been the only place to hide.

Hopefully more will be revealed tomorrow with a response to the affidavit.
 
Sorry I realise this is a really dumb question but I have trouble imagining things without a jury -Hypothetically, if all of what he is saying were true, and the reports of earlier arguing between the couple are beside the point or not even true, and if there are no elements we don't know of yet, and the prosecution were to make a more convincing case than the defence, then it is all in the hands of the judge only, and if the judge is convinced then he goes for 25 years or so? What is the appeals process? sorry again if this is a daft question
 
Can anyone verify what I am thinking: OP has already given his affidavit which lays out the day's events as he recalls them.

He admits firing through the bathroom door killing Reeva. Nowhere does he talk about shooting her in the hip before she goes into the bathroom.

Does that mean that there was no hip wound? It would be pretty bizarre tomorrow if the prosecutors say there was a shot before the ones in the bathroom.

Anyone?
 
Oh; Thanks for the article I jst scrolled back and read it.

I'm sorry; I don't believe him at all. I believe the crime scene will tell another story all together. Blood always does. I for one; hope he doesn't attain bail. This is just me; but at the Olympics several things that happened really turned me off of him; totally. It was attitude, first impressions, things he said...his over all demeanor. I actually disliked him. Now this.

Can you elaborate? I'm curious about what you saw that made you feel this way!

First I like to say I am so glad I found this site. A lot of facts still to see. Early reports stated that Reeva was shot in the bedroom and may have found refuge in the toilet room. If so wouldnt blood splatter be found in the bedroom.? Secondly, was reading that there was some discussion on premeditated murder at the bail hearing. OP stands at the bathroom door and fires 3 shots into the door. My thinking he is intending to harm or kill a
nyone on the other side. Still alot of questions need answered. Hope they have a good forensics department.
Inobu...That is great stuff!!

Smart thinking. If there is blood spatter in the bedroom, that's that.
 
Sorry I realise this is a really dumb question but I have trouble imagining things without a jury -Hypothetically, if all of what he is saying were true, and the reports of earlier arguing between the couple are beside the point or not even true, and if there are no elements we don't know of yet, and the prosecution were to make a more convincing case than the defence, then it is all in the hands of the judge only, and if the judge is convinced then he goes for 25 years or so? What is the appeals process? sorry again if this is a daft question
Yes, we only have a judge..he listens to both arguments and then makes his decision..OP will have a constitutional right to appeal his conviction which then goes to the Supreme Court of appeals...new judge. It's a very long process and could drag on for years.
 
Can anyone verify what I am thinking: OP has already given his affidavit which lays out the day's events as he recalls them.

He admits firing through the bathroom door killing Reeva. Nowhere does he talk about shooting her in the hip before she goes into the bathroom.

Does that mean that there was no hip wound? It would be pretty bizarre tomorrow if the prosecutors say there was a shot before the ones in the bathroom.

Anyone?
I think the was a hip wound...but I think all shots went through the bathroom door...surely OP would have mentioned in his statement if he had discharged his weapon in the bedroom???
 
I haven't read this full thread, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed, but my heart sank when I read the bedroom door was locked, as well. If I'm reading the affidavit ( http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html ) correctly, it seems Pistorius is claiming he and Reeva were in a bedroom suite with a bathroom, including a door that closes off a small room with a toilet. He stated he felt trapped because the bedroom door was locked. Given what he stated about the way in which the bathroom door locks (with a key from the inside) I'm guessing this means the bedroom door also locks with a key from the inside and the key wasn't in the door to allow for easy egress. Otherwise, I don't understand why one would feel trapped. He also stated he closed the sliding door to the balcony immediately before this incident. Hypothetically speaking, if there was an altercation between the two, Reeva likely would have been trapped in that bedroom suite, as well. The toilet room would have been the only place to hide.

Hopefully more will be revealed tomorrow with a response to the affidavit.

I did not read that at all, and I have read what was given to the public,

there is just too much speculation still as to what really happened, hopefully
tomorrow will shed more light.
 
I'm outta here, it's midnight and I'm bushed. Will see what tomorrow brings.

Mood on the ground...looks like a lot of SA are slowly having a change of heart after reading his statement with many thinking he may actually be telling the truth. Naturally, we have not forgotten a girl is dead and he shot her but a lot of sympathy going around for OP being such an idiot with his firearm.

Chat tomorrow.
 
These are the things that really bother me:

1. He knows there are ladders (plural) left around by contractors, so he's worried about someone coming in through the bathroom window, but has no hesitation about leaving a sliding glass door open.
2. He manages to drag a fan in, close a sliding glass door, blinds, and curtains without any issues ("limited" mobility my *advertiser censored*), but with all that light coming in he doesn't notice his girlfriend isn't in his bed? It clearly wasn't dark when he first got up or else he wouldn't have had to close all those things besides the door.
3. I know a lot about gun safety, and even in your own house you don't have the right to shoot to kill. In fact, shooting to kill is only really allowed when your life is in imminent danger, not just when you think there *might* be an intruder.
4. So he shouts out for her to call police, but then he shoots her, and then puts his legs on, and then breaks down the door, and then calls a friend or calls for someone, and then decides that waiting for an ambulance would take too long, so he'll carry her downstairs and start doing CPR instead? Ok, so he has faith that the police will get there quickly, but not an ambulance?

I think they got into a fight and he killed her. I don't know if he planned to kill her before the evening began, but I sure as hell don't buy the intruder theory.
 
I did not read that at all, and I have read what was given to the public,

there is just too much speculation still as to what really happened, hopefully
tomorrow will shed more light.

It was in the affidavit ( see http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html ). These are the specific parts I'm referring to:

"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps."

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door."
 
These are the things that really bother me:

1. He knows there are ladders (plural) left around by contractors, so he's worried about someone coming in through the bathroom window, but has no hesitation about leaving a sliding glass door open.
2. He manages to drag a fan in, close a sliding glass door, blinds, and curtains without any issues ("limited" mobility my *advertiser censored*), but with all that light coming in he doesn't notice his girlfriend isn't in his bed? It clearly wasn't dark when he first got up or else he wouldn't have had to close all those things besides the door.
3. I know a lot about gun safety, and even in your own house you don't have the right to shoot to kill. In fact, shooting to kill is only really allowed when your life is in imminent danger, not just when you think there *might* be an intruder.
4. So he shouts out for her to call police, but then he shoots her, and then puts his legs on, and then breaks down the door, and then calls a friend or calls for someone, and then decides that waiting for an ambulance would take too long, so he'll carry her downstairs and start doing CPR instead? Ok, so he has faith that the police will get there quickly, but not an ambulance?

I think they got into a fight and he killed her. I don't know if he planned to kill her before the evening began, but I sure as hell don't buy the intruder theory.

yep yep yep!

and if one is that afraid of intruders and violent crime, why would you leave a ladder outside if left by workers? wouldn't you put it in the garage or just ask the workers to not leave them lying around? more bs imo
 
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