General Discussion Thread #2

[Patticake]

I'm still hoping we'll learn more about Reeva being dressed when she was shot. According to a journalist's live tweets from the courtroom this morning, the State (Gerrie Nel, I think) said they believe the bullet through Reeva's short pants tells a story.

This is what I found ... contradictory as has been the case so often. FWIW:

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20675058,00.html


Reuters, citing an eyewitness account published in the Sunday Argus of a paramedic on the scene, said Steenkamp was already dead when he arrived.

The reports said she had been shot once in the head and in the arm, where the bullet broke the bone, and was lying at the bottom of the stairs wearing a black sweatshirt and long pants, but without shoes. When told she could not be revived, Pistorius began to cry, the medic said.

.

 

[Zinn]

This is what I found ... contradictory as has been the case so often. FWIW:

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20675058,00.html


Reuters, citing an eyewitness account published in the Sunday Argus of a paramedic on the scene, said Steenkamp was already dead when he arrived.

The reports said she had been shot once in the head and in the arm, where the bullet broke the bone, and was lying at the bottom of the stairs wearing a black sweatshirt and long pants, but without shoes. When told she could not be revived, Pistorius began to cry, the medic said.

.

The prosecution has said she was wearings shorts (or short pants) and a vest. They have stated they feel this is significant in their case against OP. OP's defense has floated the idea that Reeva could have put on these clothes to go to the bathroom. The prosecution has now added that one of the bullets went through the shorts she was wearing and they find that significant to their case in some way. I assume this was the right hip wound. These accounts are coming from journalists in the courtroom for the bail hearing.

 

[gitana1]

BBM

It happens a whole lot more in the US than you think. I don't think it's because SA has a different outlook on the law.

Right. In fact, that horrible woman in Florida (dalia dippolito) who was CONVICTED of attempted murder in a murder for hire case against her husband, all caught on tape, sits comfortably on house arrest at her mother's home pending an appeal!!!!!!!!

I know you guys are angry, thats why Ive pretty much remained silent. I still reiterate that I do believe this his story is plausible and until such time that there is evidence to the contrary, or a confession, i will remain on the defense...call me naive or whatever, considering my country's failure to protect its women...I have duly given Oscar the benefit of the doubt...that it was just was a horrible tragic accident. I havent ever forgotten that a woman, with her whole life ahead of her is dead and I feel deeply for her family. Nothing that anyone can do or say will bring her back.

There are alot of questions that need answering, and Im sure in time it will come to light.
Oscars failure to check if Reeva was in the bed or calling out...not done for reasons unknown but surely, questions that OP is asking himself...I do truly believe that sometimes people just do things that are unexplainable even to themselves when faced with situations that are the unknown, adrenalin, absolute fear etc etc. I have made my case over and over in this debate so not going to go all into it again. There is no concrete evidence that he is aggressively violent bar threatening to "break the legs" of someone who is of dubious character himself....hell, my teenage son has pissed me off enough that Ive threatened to break his little neck . Im an average woman of sound mind, easy going and of a happy and peaceful nature but if I were to feel threatened in the least in my own home, I wouldnt think twice to sink my husbands axe into someone's head. Shyte does happen...tragic horrible stuff and then the "why why why" comes out and there really are no answers.

Why didnt this father ask who was there before blindly shooting:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/25/southafrica.rugbyunion
Im sure he asks himself that every single day of his life.

Why didnt this father make sure his young daughter was safe while intruders were in their house:
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/dad-mistakes-daughter-for-burglar-1.1300063#.USe79B3bTzA
Im sure he asks himself that every day of his life.

Not the same I know, but there is every possibility that Oscar is telling the truth and I dont want to forget that.

I think the reality of crime and life in RSA is far different from here. I'm on the fence. I need to hear more but as I've said before my own godfather jumped out of bed and almost shot my godmother who was standing in the kitchen.

Accidental, mistaken gun deaths happen. I need to hear the facts of this case before I can totally decide that this guy murdered Reeva.

BTW, I have never seen a guilty person sob the way he did when arraigned. Never. Not saying that means he's innocent but I'm on the fence with Carol70.

South Africa 2012 OSAC Crime and Safety Report
Overall Crime and Safety Situation
On a rating scale of low, medium, high, and critical, Pretoria, Johannesburg, Durban, and Cape Town are rated “critical” for crime. Crime continues to be a key strategic concern for the South African government, as well as for U.S. government employees and visitors. In general, crimes continue to range throughout the full spectrum, from petty muggings and ATM scams to armed residential home invasions. These crimes occur with great frequency and throughout every neighborhood.

Crime Threats

Violent, confrontational crime is a major concern in South Africa. Such crimes include home invasion robberies, burglaries, carjackings, street muggings, smash-and-grabs, organized attacks on commercial and retail centers such as shopping malls and outlets, as well as attacks on cash-in-transit vehicles/personnel (i.e., armored car/personnel). Of particular concern for American citizens living in South Africa are home invasion robberies. These crimes are often violent in nature and can occur at any time in the day. In many cases, criminals prefer the occupant is home because the residential alarm is off and the occupant can identify where valuables are located. The recently released South African Police Service (SAPS) 2011 crime statistics indicate that the number of home invasions remains at an alarmingly high rate, with a total of 7,039 reported in Gauteng Province alone (Gauteng Province includes the cities of Johannesburg and Pretoria). Measures to combat home invasions should include several layers of residential security including perimeter walls, alarms, and grills on windows. Vehicle gates should also be equipped with anti-lift brackets, as criminals have been known to use crowbars and pneumatic jacks to lift gates off their tracks. https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=12014

Robbers accused of torturing, killing South African family plead guilty
The three men who admitted guilt in the horrific torturing and killing of the Viana family last fall in Walkerville, South Africa are notable for extent they made the family suffer before they were killed. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-plead-guilty-article-1.1123254#ixzz2Lenr3b6l

Note they also killed the family dog. The 12 year old was drowned in boiling water.

A Pretoria father, shot in the face and stabbed several times in the back and neck, repeatedly fought off two thugs trying to rape his 12-year-old daughter and murder his six-year-old son.
Describing the horror attack, which lasted 30 minutes, Chris Herbst said on Wednesday that he was asleep in bed with his pregnant wife during the early hours of Monday when his family were attacked in their Elardus Park home.http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afr...orrors-of-home-invasion-1.300239#.USfERFeoA1I

Accidental shootings of family mistaken for intruders is common around the world. Just a few in the U.S.:

Rochester pastor shoots granddaughter, mistaken for intruder http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/20315749/rochester-granddaughter-shot-mistaken-for-intruder

Police: Natomas man shoots, kills girlfriend he mistook for intruder http://www.news10.net/news/article/...ots-kills-girlfriend-he-mistook-for-intruder-

Young girl mistaken as intruder, shot and killed by stepfatherhttp://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x755777

NEW ORLEANS -- A 57-year-old New Orleans man was accidentally shot and fatally injured by his wife who mistook him for an intruder, police said Monday.http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...kills-husband-mistaking-him-for-intruder?lite

Did Pistorius know who he was shooting at? If the evidence the detectives claim to have is accurate, then it's probable that he did know. But I'm actually open about this one.

We will certainly see.

 

[21merc7]

It is true - A picture truly captures a moment.

Inobu

Sorry fans.

This is a predator. Moo! Based on personal experience and watching many trials.

Legally, the bail decision was appropriate.

 

[Herding Cats]

(Just two comments on the alcohol thing...

1. I have tons of good, high quality alcohol in my house; I have a glass of wine about 1x weekly, and hard liquor about maybe 1x per month. Just because it's here, doesn't mean it's heavily consumed.

2. Abstention from alcohol is VERY common here in the US for bond/bail. I think it's probably part of the standard conditions in SA, but don't know. But it's not something to think is exceptional).

Best-
Herding Cats

and now I'll go peacefully away...)

 

[Patticake]

The prosecution has said she was wearings shorts (or short pants) and a vest. They have stated they feel this is significant in their case against OP. OP's defense has the floated the idea that Reeva could have put on these clothes to go to the bathroom. The prosecution has now added that one of the bullets went through the shorts she was wearing and they find that significant to their case in some way. I assume this was the right hip wound. These accounts are coming from journalists in the courtroom for the bail hearing.

Well this is today's Twitter Feed although I don't see the term "short pants:

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/afp/pistorius-in-court-live-report/573348

0847 GMT: Nell infers flaws in Pistorius' version of events, saying that bullet holes showed Steenkamp had her pants on when she was shot.

He also points to gaps in Pistorius' evidence: "There is still the position of the three cartridges, there is still the position of the firearm, there is still the position of the cellphone."

0843 GMT: The lawyer sounds a sarcastic note at times, strongly attacking Pistorius' version of the shooting, AFP's Myburgh reports:

"But why would she walk into the toilet with all of her clothes on, sit down and get shot?" Nel asks.

"Why would she not say 'where are you? What's going on?"

"To find his version probable, one must stretch."

END QUOTE

 

[Inobu]

The only account of the events is from OP. His account must stand an onslaught of scrutiny. The truth will always withstand it where as a fabricated story will crumble to pieces.

Because Reeva is not here to provide some accountancy to the events the investigation must rely on the evidence to match with that written in the account (affidavit).

OP has done a good job of addressing a lot of situations but I don't think he remember to do one thing. Clear the ipads browsers. If he did it still creates an issue, why clear the browser that time of the morning?

See the web browser always documents the page and time you hit enter in its history file. If that browser has a time point anywhere between 3:00 am and 3:19 then there was ambient light in the room. Also the location of Reeva found and would refute the blacked out room scenario.

The just "waking up in the early morning to move the fan" account would just crumble. The screen saver timer would establish a potential blackout time from the last key entry to black out que.

A stated before everything placed in the affidavit has some relevance although it may the inverted. His establishing 22:00 as a time point has significance. He actually started the clock. The question is how long did Reeva take for her Yoga session. 1/2 hour or 1 hour.

22:00 to 23:00

The ipad could establish time points. If interaction with the ipad starts another event sequence that data could eventually lead into the shouting that started at 2:00 till 3:00.

Remember a basic action time line could be the foundation to his affidavit. Meaning every thing that occurred in real life is replaced with a fabricated event. The only difference is the fabricated event leaves no trail.

Let take his account and invert it in a manner that incriminates him and see if the evidence can align itself. If something does not fit one way flip it over and see if it fits the other way.

For example. 10:00 they prepare for bed. He watches TV. She does her Yoga he fall asleep. She jumps on line. He wakes up. See's her on line and an argument ensues. He grabs the ipad, see something and becomes infuriated. She see that it is going out of control and heads to bathroom. He grabs the gun, shoots 4 times. Comes to his senses and realizes what he has done.

This covers every element in his affidavit without the added rhetoric. Every element in his affidavit is inverted the other way and it too is plausible.

The ipad could be the conduit that triggered the events leading to her death.

Inobu

Take solace in that he may be free on bail but he is not free from his conscience.

 

[Patticake]

Here is a longer quote from the medic. He says OP was wearing shorts and a tee-short but Reeva long pants:

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...of-blood-up-the-stairs-1.1471721#.USfH9WdBqCo



Cape Town - A paramedic who was among the first on the scene after the shooting of Reeva Steenkamp said he entered Oscar Pistorius’s house and saw a woman’s body near the stairs, covered in blood.

The paramedic, who asked not to be named, said:

“There was a lot of activity at the house. The police were moving in and out and there were private security guards outside.

“When we arrived a woman, who never told us her name, met us in the driveway and showed us through the door. As soon as I walked in, I saw a woman’s body by the stairs and she was covered in blood. There was also a blood trail up the stairs that I could see. “Oscar Pistorius, dressed in shorts and a T-shirt, was just standing there looking at the body. His right leg and arm were covered in blood.

“He looked rattled,” said the medic, adding that Steenkamp had been wearing a black sweat top and long pants, but no shoes.

“She was lying on her back at the bottom of the stairs and we were told that she had been shot upstairs, and that Oscar had carried her down to the bottom. She had sustained a gunshot wound to her head and her right arm.


END QUOTE

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Every day this case flips for me. I am not sure at all what is accurate or true. I also realized I can not think about it from the place of an american who is safe in her home, neighborhood daily. I don't have the fear for my life as I walk around.

I need to see more before I make a judgment in this case. I am always in the innocent til proven guilty camp, And I don't see absolute guilt yet.

 

[21merc7]

(Just two comments on the alcohol thing...

1. I have tons of good, high quality alcohol in my house; I have a glass of wine about 1x weekly, and hard liquor about maybe 1x per month. Just because it's here, doesn't mean it's heavily consumed.

2. Abstention from alcohol is VERY common here in the US for bond/bail. I think it's probably part of the standard conditions in SA, but don't know. But it's not something to think is exceptional).

Best-
Herding Cats

and now I'll go peacefully away...)

It is common in the U.S. in violent crimes to prohibit alcohol.

I drink too. Alcohol itself is not the issue. It is the person on the alcohol, the person that already poses a threat becomes more violent when drinking.

You nor I have shot guns "accidentally" twice, once taking a life. Nor do we express rage and threaten to the point of law enforcement being involved.

 

[Inobu]

Sorry fans.

This is a predator. Moo! Based on personal experience and watching many trials.

Legally, the bail decision was appropriate.

Based on the circumstances presented the bail makes sense unless he runs. I think it just gives people the ability to see how he is.

Body language is tied to thought patterns.

Inobu

 

[21merc7]

Every day this case flips for me. I am not sure at all what is accurate or true. I also realized I can not think about it from the place of an american who is safe in her home, neighborhood daily. I don't have the fear for my life as I walk around.

I need to see more before I make a judgment in this case. I am always in the innocent til proven guilty camp, And I don't see absolute guilt yet.

I don't know where you live in America, but am happy to hear there are some safe places still. I am not in one.

 

[Wondergirl]

Are we expected to consider that the witness heard fighting between 2 and 3 a.m., saw the lights on, heard a women scream, and then everything went back to normal, Reeva went back to sleep, and then ended up dead 20 minutes later?

GMAFB

I heard that very account as summarized by Nair, live. I then had to stop listening to go to office.

To say I was shocked that he let OP out is an understatement.

The whole thing is evil.

You did not die in vain, Reeva.

The evidence will tell your story loud and clear, regardless of the spin.

RIP Reeva

 

[Inobu]

Here is a longer quote from the medic. He says OP was wearing shorts and a tee-short but Reeva long pants:

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...of-blood-up-the-stairs-1.1471721#.USfH9WdBqCo



Cape Town - A paramedic who was among the first on the scene after the shooting of Reeva Steenkamp said he entered Oscar Pistorius’s house and saw a woman’s body near the stairs, covered in blood.

The paramedic, who asked not to be named, said:

“There was a lot of activity at the house. The police were moving in and out and there were private security guards outside.

“When we arrived a woman, who never told us her name, met us in the driveway and showed us through the door. As soon as I walked in, I saw a woman’s body by the stairs and she was covered in blood. There was also a blood trail up the stairs that I could see. “Oscar Pistorius, dressed in shorts and a T-shirt, was just standing there looking at the body. His right leg and arm were covered in blood.

“He looked rattled,” said the medic, adding that Steenkamp had been wearing a black sweat top and long pants, but no shoes.

“She was lying on her back at the bottom of the stairs and we were told that she had been shot upstairs, and that Oscar had carried her down to the bottom. She had sustained a gunshot wound to her head and her right arm.


END QUOTE

Where did the nighty thing come from?

Inbou

 

[Morag]

I'm not sure what happened (although I have occasionally encountered my husband in the bathroom at night when I could have sworn I left him sleeping in our bed!) here, but assuming that what OP said happened is what happened- this is certainly proof that a person who lives or visits a house with a gun in it is more likely to be shot.

In my niece's home city, a father shot his daughter who was hiding in the closet after coming home late- he heard a noise in the closet and opened fire with his shotgun through the door. She died.

An acquaintance of mine was baby-sitting his fiancee's baby brother a few days before the wedding. Baby got the gun and accidentally killed himself. They got married anyway, though I can't understand why or how.

My manicurist's neighbor had his young grandsons as overnight guests. Part of his large gun "collection" was stored under the grandfather's bed. Grandson pulled out a gun and accidentally shot the other boy. The 5 year old died.

None of these people lived in high crime areas, certainly not comparable with what is presented as that of SA. Yet they had guns, and their loved ones died by accident.

So OP had these guns for protection, and he seemed to be genuinely fearful and perhaps paranoid. Maybe he wasn't using steroids, nor testosterone, nor liquor in excess amounts. Maybe he, like many others, was careless with his weapons. I want to hear more before I assume that he was a vicious, violent murderer. Many of the rumors about him seem to have been manufactured, or exaggerated, or completely debunked. For now, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[gitana1]

Sorry fans.

This is a predator. Moo! Based on personal experience and watching many trials.

Legally, the bail decision was appropriate.

He just looks serious to me. I'm not sure how it's the face of a predator. But I also don't categorize all rage killers as "predators". To me, a predator is someone who trolls for victims (or even for one victim - stalking and then killing kind of thing).

 

[Carol70]

I don't think we can assume it was a request from OP. Is it an unusual restriction? I have no idea. Maybe someone familiar with SA trials can tell us if that's an unusual condition of bail in a case like this.

As for any previous issues with drinking, hard to say. IIRC, when OP wrecked his speedboat and required 100+ stitches, they didn't test him for drugs or alcohol.

All of the above is just my opinion.

Yep, all OP bail restrictions are pretty standard. The no drinking, drugs, passport, etc are standard...also the checking in at his local PS however, I was surprised that its only twice a week, I thought it would be at least every second day or so.

As for the speedboat incident, I don't think we can read much into it, I can only imagine he was at the Vaal dam for the day, drinking beers, maybe braai'ing which a lot of families do there every weekend.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't know where you live in America, but am happy to hear there are some safe places still. I am not in one.

America is no where near what I have been learning about this place. I know there are some scary places here. But as a rule?? We are a safe country. I don't think we can comprehend these kind of places.

 

[Carol70]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...-reportedly-house-Reeva-Steenkamp-murder.html

His blood samples are being tested and a source told The Sun: 'Steroid drugs were found at Pistorius’s home together with evidence of heavy drinking. That’s why police have specifically ordered that he be tested for steroids.'

END QOTE

I will try to find the statement [I think [not sure] it came from Botha] about alcohol evidence at the house

.

I think it's been established that we can only take what Mr Botha said with a pinch of salt...also, I must actually find out but it may be common to request blood samples when a crime of this magnitude has been committed. Surely finding out if one is drunk, drugged at the time of the crime would be critical to the case ( for both defense and prosecution)???

 

[Inobu]

You guys are not reading what Patticake's is posting up.

The medic said Pistorius told them Steenkamp had stopped breathing three minutes before the ambulance arrived.

“She had lost a lot of blood. I could see the trail of blood stains on the stairs.”

The wounds were fatal, and there was nothing they could do for the model. She was declared dead at the scene.

“When we told Pistorius there was nothing we could do to save her, he started crying.”

The medic said he had not gone upstairs.

“As soon as we had done the declaration of the death, the police ushered us outside,” he said.

The guys tells them that she stopped breathing three minutes before they got there. Then only starts crying when they say they cant do anything.

Inobu