General Discussion Thread #2

[cityslick]

Facts and Evidence Support the Following:

After lengthy argument (with or without other assualt) likely ending up in bathroom, where Pist strikes Reeva's phone from her grasp; She escapes into toilet closet and locks door.

Pist trots to bedroom, gathers gun; returns to 'hearing sounds' of Reeva flushing or urinating into toilet; fires 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th bullets diagonally, targeting 2-3 feet above toilet seat, to strike Reeva’s head/ upper body, until her screaming stops.

A well-conceived, perfectly executed, execution.. demonstrating considerable decision-making and specific intent in those final moments.. including concocting the only scenario which provides the "excuse" of 'I couldn't see the person I decided to shoot to death.'

Consider the probability that the person in the bathroom next to your bedroom at 3 AM is your bed mate who's not within your sight at the moment ? (I'd say, about 99.9999%)

And considering that the subject home has sophisticated security system and is within a walled, gated, armed-guarded complex; 99.99999999999%.

By the forensics,facts, Pist own affidavit, witnesses and Pist history of jealous aggression and violent threats, Pist killing of Ms.Steenkamp is likely one of the most well-documented cases of cold-blooded murder in history. It would take a buffoon to rule the killing to be an ‘accident’. We’ll see how SA trial judge does.

I believe Pist crocodile tears are real - for himself.
He's very sorry that he '******ed up' HIS life.

If Pist also crushed Reeva’s skull, ‘reinstatement’ of jail/ revocation of bail, should occur immediately upon filing of the autopsy report.

(And Botha should be arrested and charged with perjury, obstruction and conspiracy/ accessory to murder.)

http://www.bellenews.com/2013/02/24...ll-with-a-cricket-bat-police-told-her-family/

BBM

I'm curious to know where this op-ed piece got it's information on ballistics, forensics, as well as exactly what the witnesses said and where exactly they were. Not sure why they are saying the bail should be revoked if he did crush her skull, I thought the point of lying in court about that was so that he didn't go to jail.

 

[Patticake]

The affidavit was for bail. Perhaps they wanted bail at all costs for reasons we may see between now and trial... They got bail.

As for OJ, ultimately he got off because the Jurors had reasonable doubt---you would have to have a statement from each one as to what his or her basis was. As best as I recall, what I wrote was what some said. But it's been 20 years is it? If you have other info, let's hear it.

I don't for one minute believe the jury had reasonable doubt in the OJ case.

Almost unbelievably the case lasted 9 months. Nine months! The jury deliberated for only 4 hours. The non-African American on the jury said the rest of the jury badgered her because they wanted to go home. Remember they were sequestered the whole 9 months. She wanted to deliberate but it never happened.

IMO, the OJ case was classic "Jury Nullification" and is even cited as a famous case of "jury nullification" here:

Jury nullification in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They never had any intention of considering his guilt.

.

 

[shane13]

I don't for one minute believe the jury had reasonable doubt in the OJ case.

Almost unbelievably the case lasted 9 months. Nine months! The jury deliberated for only 4 hours. The non-African American on the jury said the rest of the jury badgered her because they wanted to go home. Remember they were sequestered the whole 9 months. She wanted to deliberate but it never happened.

IMO, the OJ case was classic "Jury Nullification" and is even cited as a famous case of "jury nullification" here:

Jury nullification in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They never had any intention of considering his guilt.

.

Well I clicked on your link above to wiki's piece on jury nullification. It cited the OJ case as one example, but when I clicked the link to go there, that lengthy piece has no mention of nullification.

It did include this: "In 1996, defense attorney Robert Shapiro wrote a book, The Search for Justice, in which he criticizes F. Lee Bailey as a "loose cannon" and Johnnie Cochran for bringing race into the trial. He did not believe Simpson was framed by the LAPD for racial reasons, but believed the verdict was correct due to reasonable doubt.[30]

Bottom line is all 12 would have to provide reasons for why they voted as they did, then we would know what their bases were. Did all 12 tell all? Or some of them? If the white juror just went along, that doesn't say much for her. If they just did not give a damn and wanted to get home ASAP, that's not nullification either. I have no problem with nullification, if it's justified. Shapiro who has been quoted here... said their basis was resonable doubt.

Back to Oscar.

 

[21merc7]

Jumping in quickly while at work.

RE: Defense attorneys

I have worked for defense attorneys for nearly 20 years now. 2 specialize in Capital Murder defense, and of course do all the other criminal charges too.

The attorneys demand the truth from the clients. The clients usually do not want to tell it. The attorneys demand it because the forensics are going to come back pointing to the truth. They need to know it so they will know how to proceed. I have even heard them yell at clients to stop lying, that they need the cooperation to save their lives. This even happens in the other murder cases that do not have death penalty attached. The attorney needs to know. What and how the attorney uses the info depends on the case. I'm sure someone that is an actual attorney can explain this better than me, I just work for them.

The ones that do not ask, or care, are not very good attorneys, and will just do the minimal required work to get paid for the case. We have had quite a few of those through the years here too.

 

[shane13]

Jumping in quickly while at work.

RE: Defense attorneys

I have worked for defense attorneys for nearly 20 years now. 2 specialize in Capital Murder defense, and of course do all the other criminal charges too.

The attorneys demand the truth from the clients. The clients usually do not want to tell it. The attorneys demand it because the forensics are going to come back pointing to the truth. They need to know it so they will know how to proceed. I have even heard them yell at clients to stop lying, that they need the cooperation to save their lives. This even happens in the other murder cases that do not have death penalty attached. The attorney needs to know. What and how the attorney uses the info depends on the case. I'm sure someone that is an actual attorney can explain this better than me, I just work for them.

The ones that do not ask, or care, are not very good attorneys, and will just do the minimal required work to get paid for the case. We have had quite a few of those through the years here too.

OK.

Here's a 30 page document:
WHEN THE LAWYER KNOWS THE CLIENT IS GUILTY: CLIENT CONFESSIONS IN LEGAL ETHICS, POPULAR CULTURE, AND LITERATURE
http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~idjlaw/PDF/18-2/18-2 Asimow.pdf

Quite involved, it says, and no time to read.

But it starts thusly, "What should a criminal defense lawyer do when the lawyer is certain
that the client is factually guilty (usually because the client has confessed to
the lawyer), but the client nevertheless insists on a strong defense? This
situation may be the defense lawyer ’s worst nightmare."

 

[shane13]

Again, does anyone know if there is insanity plea or diminished capacity in SA courts?

 

[shane13]

Pistorius plans his own service for Reeva

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-plans-his-own-service-for-Reeva-20130226

 

[whiterum]

Pistorius plans his own service for Reeva

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-plans-his-own-service-for-Reeva-20130226

If it's a private service and they don't want the media there, why broadcast it, just keep it under their hat.

 

[shane13]

If it's a private service and they don't want the media there, why broadcast it, just keep it under their hat.

Yes, obviously a PR stunt.

 

[Patticake]

Pistorius plans his own service for Reeva

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-plans-his-own-service-for-Reeva-20130226

How Brazen!

It says he is in mourning for his partner Reeva!

I can imagine her parents' reaction.

.

 

[soozieqtips]

If it's a private service and they don't want the media there, why broadcast it, just keep it under their hat.

Exactly! From the article:

"The Pistorius family would like to make a personal request to the media, to please respect their privacy at their home in Pretoria tonight [Tuesday night]."

Smacks of insincerity to me. They could have easily kept it 'private' if they hadn't already made it public! They clearly want to push the 'grieving' Oscar persona to further the 'accidental' killing theory. The only reason the press know about this 'private' service is because the family wanted them to know so it could be made public.

 

[shane13]

Uh oh.

I was afraid of this "Developments in the last twenty years have resulted in judicial recognition of the role of psychological factors, other than mental illness, in the negation of criminal responsibility. This recognition is typically expressed in the defence of non-pathological criminal incapacity and encompasses the idea that transient mental states are grounds for exculpation. The acceptance of this defence into South African law widened the scope of expert psychological and psychiatric testimony to include psychological evidence."

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/psychology/psy400w/insanity.pdf

It seems that recently SA Courts have gotten more lenient as to all sorts of diminished capacity allowing for non-guilty verdicts, or diminished sentence.

Anyone think he will either go free or get a light sentence?

(And maybe his own aunt has been part of the laying the groundrules for some time.)

 

[Lola]

my favorite part is he is mourning in private according to his publicist....give me strength!

 

[natsound]

I don't believe for one second any of the rumours about him using the bat to hit her on the head. Whether he is guilty or telling the truth.
MOO

I'm with ya. RS's brother has said on record that it's not true. That's all I need.

 

[natsound]

Magistrate may also have been preoccupied:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Tragedy-hits-magistrate-in-Pistorius-case-20130226

 

[Carol70]

Pistorius plans his own service for Reeva

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-plans-his-own-service-for-Reeva-20130226

Well...that was a dumb arse thing to do! Advertising a private service. Very bad move on PR behalf I think.

 

[natsound]

I respectfully disagree. We are a racially charged country, he is a rich white man. Not long ago we concluded the case of "jub jub" an up and comming Kwaito star, charged with the murder of 5 children caused by reckless speeding, drag racing and he was drugged/drunk at the time. Sentenced to 20 years. It was an accident, he clearly never meant to mow down those kids with his vehicle. If OP walks away from this, all hell is going to break loose. SA commentators are already talking about the rich black kid who got 25 years in the prime of his life, what do you think is going to happen if the rich white kid gets anything less?? Anarchy. Not to make this political but the ANC are grasping at anything that will help them retain power...it wouldn't surprise me if this case only comes to trial after our elections next year...as it is, the ANCWL have been very vocal in this case...even attending Reevas funeral.

Obviously, you know much more about the mood in SA than I do. I do get the feeling, however, that OP was, and still is to some, a superstar there. I first sensed OP was getting special treatment when the magistrate granted him bail, but only announced his decision after a two-hour soliloquy, ending with a pregnant 10-second pause where he had the attention of the world in the palm of his hand. Unnecessary drama. I understand bail hearings are to determine whether a suspect is a flight risk, but the charge against this guy is premeditated murder. He put four bullets into someone. Would he have gotten bail if he was not internationally famous?

This case is already full of side shows. More and more surface every day. I will not be surprised if OP ends up walking free, in the midst of all this pomp and circumstance. My hope is that the Steenkamp family has enough pull to prevent this from happening.

 

[Carol70]

Again, does anyone know if there is insanity plea or diminished capacity in SA courts?

I'm not sure at all about this....generally when the word " diminished capacity" starts being thrown around, the suspect will go for an evaluation to see if they are fit to stand trial, if its shown they have some ligit mental problem, they are sent to state mental hospitals indefinitely or until such a time that they are fit to stand trial. I highly doubt this is a road OP will walk. He would be better off in Pollsmoor than a state mental ward.

 

[natsound]

Pistorius plans his own service for Reeva

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-plans-his-own-service-for-Reeva-20130226

It's probably going on right now, if it's really happening. Damage control in its purest form.

 

[shane13]

What are they eating there in SA?

New Meat Scandal: Donkey in South Africa Burgers

http://www.newser.com/story/163485/...rce=part&utm_medium=inbox&utm_campaign=newser