General Discussion Thread #2

[DriveBy]

There are clearly those even here, old and new, who have a corrupt agenda, and seek to control and limit and denigrate in an obvious way.

I don't ask that everyone agree with me at all. But some who chose to believe OP--like Carol70-- are clearly honest people. But several here clearly are not.

BIB Strange. What are you talking about?

 

[liverpoollou]

BIB "the Defence are saying" Be careful with what the defense says, their spin of something to frame OP's story in a "plausible" way....

That's what I mean, they are saying she died before Oscar reached the bottom of the stairs....that could encompass the fact she was dead when he picked her up from the bathroom The only reason Oscar said she was alive when he carried her, was to show that this was a terrible mistake and he was doing everything he could to save her. Whereas, I think he would have made sure she was dead before carrying her downstairs. I mean are we supposed to believe he was checking on her every second to see if she was still alive?

 

[DriveBy]

That's what I mean, they are saying she died before Oscar reached the bottom of the stairs....that could encompass the fact she was dead when he picked her up from the bathroom The only reason Oscar said she was alive when he carried her, was to show that this was a terrible mistake and he was doing everything he could to save her. Whereas, I think he would have made sure she was dead before carrying her downstairs. I mean are we supposed to believe he was checking on her every second to see if she was still alive?

He was carrying her down as security and neighbors arrived, they witnessed that. They also witnessed her breathing and making gurgling sounds which means she was alive.

 

[liverpoollou]

He was carrying her down as security and neighbors arrived, they witnessed that. They also witnessed her breathing and making gurgling sounds which means she was alive.

I didn't know others witnessed her breathing......why would the Defence spin it that she died before Oscar got to the bottom of the stairs? I don't get it.

 

[DriveBy]

If he heard the noise during Number 1. he wouldn't be able to finish other 3 things he said he done.
I know he made status that his room was pitch black, which means that he was able to finish all the tasks, which would suggest that he heard the noise when he was inside the bedroom.
So Reeva didn't go to toilet when he was on balcony otherwise he would hear the noise and jump right away to get the gun. That means he wouldn't be able to close door, blinds, curtains. And of course he couldn't clime that room was pitch dark.
If he heard the noise while closing door, he would turn around and see that Reeva is not in bed because light would come trough door (no yet blinds or curtains).

Welcome to the party Zina! I like your posts, very smart!

 

[DriveBy]

I didn't know others witnessed her breathing......why would the Defence spin it that she died before Oscar got to the bottom of the stairs? I don't get it.

Frankly I don't either. But WhiteRum pointed it out to me, and now I'm on guard. The "dead by the time she reached the bottom of the stairs" thing came from OP's specialist that attended the autopsy and helped with the investigation for OP's attorneys; he said that while also saying that he could not discuss any details about the Defense's findings at the autopsy or the crime scene, so...

 

[liverpoollou]

Frankly I don't either. But WhiteRum pointed it out to me, and now I'm on guard. The "dead by the time she reached to bottom of the stairs" thing came from OP's specialist that attended the autopsy and helped with the investigation for OP's attorneys; he said that while also saying that he could not discuss any details about the Defense's findings at the autopsy or the crime scene, so...

Thanks.......Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

 

[Estelle]

I have cut and pasted this article here as I wish to make some comments in italics directly after each cluster and will delete any sentences I do not wish to comment on

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-suicidal-reveals-best-1753776

A broken man: Best friend of Oscar Pistorius reveals athlete is suicidal 9 Mar 2013

1. Oscar Pistorius is a broken man who thinks of ending his life, a close friend has revealed. One of the athlete’s dearest friends Mike Azzi, (a horse trainer)who Pistorius fondly calls uncle Mike, said: “There is no confidence in his tone of voice. He’s just like someone walking around in circles. He doesn’t know where he is going. I would say that, just by speaking to him, he is a broken man. I’d go as far as to say he would be on the verge of suicide. It really worries me. I get the feeling that he’s really hurting and he’s an inkling of the man that he used to be.”Mike, a racing horse trainer, said Pistorius was a close family friend. They have been in regular contact since the star was released on £73,000 bail. Mike said: “He just always seems to mention Reeva and to ask us to pray for her and her family. “Most of all you’ve got to understand that we are there for him and we will always be his friend. “I don’t know what to think. If you ask me, ‘Do you believe Oscar could do it?’ “I’d have to say no because I’ve never seen that side of him. But in life there are those moments of madness where people are just uncontrollable. “I pray to God that’s not the case with him. As for Reeva and her family, how can one ever say to them that, from Oscar’s side, you’re sorry this happened? “They’ve lost a child, a beautiful shining star. It’s just a terrible tragedy.”

Mike’s son Dexter has often spent the weekend at Pistorius’s home. He said of the shooting: “I believe it was an accident, as Oscar said it was. We’ve spoken over texts. He often asks people to keep Reeva in his prayers. It’s one of the first things he says to me every time we speak. “He has said to me on a number of occasions that he’s really hurting and he’s a broken man.” Dexter was at the house two weeks before Christmas and recalled how he knocked over a fan and Pistorius became panic-stricken. The athlete immediately grabbed his gun for protection before shouting to check if Dexter was OK. He said: “I can believe Oscar’s story is true. I know he was paranoid in that sense because of things that went on.”

The mentions of Reeva by Mike and his son IMO would have been suggested by OP's PR agents who asked Mike to say this to make it seem that OP is thinking of Reeva. But IMO OP is only thinking of himself. A narcissist will never end his life. They will use talk about suicide as a way of getting attention, sympathy from the family, friends and the public as well as possible leniency in the court but it may backfire on him.

I am wondering if VUMA OP's, PR agents, have asked this friend to do an interview for the Mirror so the word gets out that poor OP is suicidal to get some public sympathy.

However, it could have the wrong result in that the court might decide now to put him on sucide watch in a psychiatric ward of a prison rather than relaxing his conditions of bail especailly with a probable 11 guns available at Uncle Arnold's house for OP to find to kill himself.

2. The Paralympian has been selling his belongings to fund his soaring legal fees since he was charged with murdering his girlfriend. Since his arrest he has racked up legal fees of more than £200,000. Once the trial starts that will climb far higher. Sponsorship deals with companies Nike and Oakley have dried up and Pistorius has asked friends to help him get rid of belongings to raise cash. Mike said: “We spoke about one or two of the horses. He’s asked me to try to get people to buy them for him because he has no form of income any longer. “He’s selling off all his property and everything because of the legal costs.”

He should have thought of the ramifications before he opened fire or became violent. Poor OP. I read that a new sports car was just delivered to him. He could definitely sell that straight away as he won't be driving anywhere except to prison.

3. The Olympics hero is a shadow of the star who thrilled the world as the amazing Blade Runner with prosthetic legs. Pistorius hit the heights competing in the Olympics last summer then winning double gold in the Paralympics.

I was at the Olympic Games in London 2012 and when I was at the athletics, I saw him but I felt he should have been competing only at the Paralympics.

4. Among the revelations is how Pistorius, 26, showed bravado after he was arrested over the Valentine’s Day shooting and told police: “I’ll survive. I always win.” It was his response to a senior officer who had warned him: “You could go to jail for a very long time, Oscar.” Since then he has sold shares in one of his race horses, Tiger Canyon, and plans to sell more of his property.

IMO it was not "bravado"...it was downright arrogance. But only selling one of his racehorses? Why not all of them?

5. Police also confirmed the key witness who reported hearing screams and shots has come forward. The witness lives 150 metres from Pistorius’s luxury home in the highly secured Silver Woods estate in South Africa’s capital Pretoria.

I think this distance could be correct as there are houses that close to OP's and they would be the ones to hear most noise.

6. Investigators also revealed the bathroom door through which Reeva Steenkamp was shot opens inwards. It means she could have used her body to try to stop it being pushed open. Pistorius’s phone, which was in the bathroom next to Reeva’s, the 9mm pistol used and the path of the bullets through the door are all being examined. Police failed to find a bullet in the lavatory bowl. It was picked up by an independent team hired by Pistorius and had traces of Reeva’s brain and blood. There is a photo of Oscar Pistorius' bathroom inside his home in Pretoria on the Mirror article link. Detectives said they were no longer concerned with whether Pistorius put on his legs before he shot Reeva, 29.

This is a very interesting comment. Is this because there is no connection between the bullets he fired through the door and the bullet wounds found in Reeva? I predict that she was already dead or almost dead from the cricket bat blows to the back of her skull and OP carried her in there and left her slumped against the door. Also that he fired a shot into the cricket bat wound to cover up the assault and that this could have been done outside the toilet and he later threw the bullet into the toilet bowl.

7. They also confirmed that two dogs were in the grounds of the house when the shooting happened and there was a ladder, as Pistorius had described.
His statement was: “There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside.”
The men worked on a Jacuzzi on one of Pistorius’s balconies and their ladder was found lying on the floor. The whole estate where Pistorius lives bristles with hi-tech security plus armed guards and dogs. The last incident was an inside job – a robbery at gunpoint in 2011 which involved a rogue guard.

But wouldn't the dogs have barked at the intruder?

8. Police in Johannesburg added they are looking at Reeva’s iPhone with its “massive” number of text messages.

I do not believe the report which said there were no text messages or calls after 8pm on 13/2/2013. Maybe the report only said calls not text messages. But I am open to believing that some of these messages would be on her iPad. I am reasonably convinced that a motive might be found because of one of them and they are still investigating.

9. Officers believe neither Reeva nor Pistorius were drunk.

But they could have had alcohol earlier in the evening but were not drunk at 3am? Otherwise, I wonder if one or both of them had cocaine that night or something similar like marijuana.

10. They intend to push for a full murder trial and will refuse a lesser plea.

So does this imply that the police have definitely found evidence of permeditation and a motive? Maybe OP's lawyers have now advised him that his intruder story is not going to get him acquitted hence he wants to enjoy his last months of freedom with no bail conditions, escape if he can, feign suicidal thoughts to get sympathy and leniency, sell his properties and put proceeds into long-term investments.

 

[Zina]

I've been once next to a man who got hit on head by bat and to tell you that his head didn't get smashed. He got hit from behind as we were staying in circle and he felt the sharp pain, his head looked normal until we saw blood coming out behind his ears. When I looked closer I saw like little crack and because English is my second language to explain better this: it looked like when you cut watermelon and green top start opening to se little red inside. That is how I saw a bit of his brain and freaked out so my husband took him to hospital. We got told by hospital staff that head is so strong and inside between scull and actuall brain is another movable thing which protects the brain from injury. So he got so many stitches.

So if OP hit Reeva by bet she would be able to ran to toilet and there wouldn't be much blood on the bet but probably some blood would start going down her hair and falling on her shoulders

 

[natsound]

And all that fits with reports that were said to come from the police that she was shot first in the hip in the bedroom. Next to nothing is a definitive source--including what you would like to be the whole Universe--the scantiness released by the Pros at bail hearing.

And fits with the scenario that she may have been placed on the toilet which is why he needed to carry her afterwards.

Botha has well indicated since that the Pros. tries in general, to release as little as possible, and would have little to do with what will come out during trial.

So is your notion something like this: That many of the things that were stated during testimony at the hearing were not true, and prosecution is saving some aces in the hole for trial? I am just trying to get an idea of why we would suddenly consider that she was placed on the toilet. My worry about this theory is that there would already be a pile of liars for the prosecution, so why should we believe them at trial, and could they possibly be charged criminally for lying to a magistrate?

Did Botha actually say that the prosecution is not letting much evidence out at this point? I would like to see that interview.

 

[Estelle]

There is a woman who has posted on the Justice for RS website and other websites with a very similar , almost identical, name and site address trying to rubbish RS, causing a backlash from posters on a number of sites. Think those derogatory posts against RS and pro OP have been removed a while back, not sure though. Perhaps if is the same woman she has her own agenda .

I predicted thst she has her own agenda. I did not post this comment because I agreed with it. I posted it because I wondered who she was and was suspicious of what she said. She could be a friend of OP.

 

[natsound]

"Neighbours claim Pistorius was found next to her body in the bathroom"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ged-murder-Reeva-Steenkamp.html#ixzz2N7qDEFmb

I know it is the Daily Mail, Shane, but I found this little snippet which I thought was of interest.

This is about what I thought would have happened. Why? Because IMO she was already dead when in the toilet then he did those last three shots through the door to support the intruder story after the 17 minutes. The neighbours and the security guards would have been over quickly as they had already heard screaming for an hour and at least one shot. Was his front door open or would security guards have had a key to get in? I can just imagine them walking up the stairs and catching him in the bathroom like this as he might have been in shock about what he had just done and what was going to happen next. IMO he then carried her down the stairs pretending she was still alive and and had to get her to the hospital fast. Then at some stage gave her CPR knowing she was already dead. Then he said she died in my arms for dramatic hero effect and because he did not want police finding out where she actually was. So everyone now believes that she was still alive when he carried her down the stairs. I remember DriveBy gave us his opinion that she must have been alive for 30 mintutes due to the blood but I do not think so as he cannot prove that but nor can I prove what I have just said. It is just my gut feeling knowing what a liar he is."

This is very interesting. I remember reading that neighbors found OP outside the bathroom with RS, and I remember a separate story saying the pumps from her heart beats are indicated by the blood spatters heading down the stairs. Were either of these scenarios discussed during testimony at the hearing?

 

[whiterum]

Frankly I don't either. But WhiteRum pointed it out to me, and now I'm on guard. The "dead by the time she reached the bottom of the stairs" thing came from OP's specialist that attended the autopsy and helped with the investigation for OP's attorneys; he said that while also saying that he could not discuss any details about the Defense's findings at the autopsy or the crime scene, so...

Perumal also told how bloody swipes from Steenkamp’s hair – as well as other blood markings in the house – supported Pistorius’s story of where he picked her body up and carried it.

“There was a lot of blood on the scene. We can tell when Oscar picked Reeva up by the blood from her hair swipes.

“And from the blood markings we can see she was still alive at that time.

“There were also swipes on the wall where he carried her down the steps. And we can tell that by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead.”

Perumal said it had been frustrating to listen to the many “wrong conclusions” expressed by almost every person who had been following this case, as he could do nothing more than listen. And his lips are sealed – until he testifies at the trial.


A link to this interview has been posted many times on this site, maybe someone would kindly post it again for me as I cant seem to get it to work.

I trust this man as a seasoned forensic pathologist would not put his reputation on the line by making a public statement like this, if there were not evidence to prove it.

 

[DriveBy]

OP is just a little sad right now because his life has changed and he is now a prisoner of his Uncle's care, literally. He still believes he can "win" and everything will be back to what it was.

Anyway, it must be a drag to have to wait to take that sweet McClaren out and push her up to 155 mph, in the rain. And having to sell a horse? Man times are hard...

(sarcasm)

 

[whiterum]

I predicted thst she has her own agenda. I did not post this comment because I agreed with it. I posted it because I wondered who she was and was suspicious of what she said. She could be a friend of OP.

I know Estelle , I was just informing that I had heard that name before connected to derogatory comments on other sites

 

[soozieqtips]

Does anyone have any idea why the police are 'no longer interested' in whether OP put on his legs before shooting at the door? Initially, they said that the fact he put on his legs first, and then walked to the bathroom door to shoot the 'intruder', was an indication of pre-meditated murder. I wonder why they're not interested in that anymore.

 

[DriveBy]

Perumal also told how bloody swipes from Steenkamp’s hair – as well as other blood markings in the house – supported Pistorius’s story of where he picked her body up and carried it.

“There was a lot of blood on the scene. We can tell when Oscar picked Reeva up by the blood from her hair swipes.

“And from the blood markings we can see she was still alive at that time.

“There were also swipes on the wall where he carried her down the steps. And we can tell that by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead.”

Perumal said it had been frustrating to listen to the many “wrong conclusions” expressed by almost every person who had been following this case, as he could do nothing more than listen. And his lips are sealed – until he testifies at the trial.


A link to this interview has been posted many times on this site, maybe someone would kindly post it again for me as I cant seem to get it to work.

I trust this man as a seasoned forensic pathologist would not put his reputation on the line by making a public statement like this, if there were not evidence to prove it.

I'm suspicious of him because he is hired, and because he is "spinning" the facts in public while, in the same breath, saying that he can't comment. In any high profile (wealthy killer) murder case there is always conflicting testimony from the Hired specialist(s) and the State's specialists.

 

[liverpoollou]

6. Investigators also revealed the bathroom door through which Reeva Steenkamp was shot opens inwards. It means she could have used her body to try to stop it being pushed open. Pistorius’s phone, which was in the bathroom next to Reeva’s, the 9mm pistol used and the path of the bullets through the door are all being examined. Police failed to find a bullet in the lavatory bowl. It was picked up by an independent team hired by Pistorius and had traces of Reeva’s brain and blood. There is a photo of Oscar Pistorius' bathroom inside his home in Pretoria on the Mirror article link. Detectives said they were no longer concerned with whether Pistorius put on his legs before he shot Reeva, 29.

This is a very interesting comment. Is this because there is no connection between the bullets he fired through the door and the bullet wounds found in Reeva? I predict that she was already dead or almost dead from the cricket bat blows to the back of her skull and OP carried her in there and left her slumped against the door. Also that he fired a shot into the cricket bat wound to cover up the assault and that this could have been done outside the toilet and he later threw the bullet into the toilet bowl.


Can't understand why they were no longer concerned re legs. I thought it would be crucial to it being premeditated, ie sat on the bed took some moments or minutes putting on legs and still not noticing Reeva was not in the bed It could be that it wasn't any of THOSE bullets that killed her, she was dead before she was put in the bathroom??????? Probably slumped up against the door so a shot could be put through her head to make it look like a fatal shot, as has been mentioned, a shot ontop of a cricket bat wound?

7. They also confirmed that two dogs were in the grounds of the house when the shooting happened and there was a ladder, as Pistorius had described.
His statement was: “There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside.”
The men worked on a Jacuzzi on one of Pistorius’s balconies and their ladder was found lying on the floor. The whole estate where Pistorius lives bristles with hi-tech security plus armed guards and dogs. The last incident was an inside job – a robbery at gunpoint in 2011 which involved a rogue guard.

But wouldn't the dogs have barked at the intruder?

Not sure I understand this correctly. .......The last incident probably wasn't at Oscar's property and I don't know if dogs would bark at a rogue guard if he was actually employed as a guard, got the job deliberately in order to do robbery

8. Police in Johannesburg added they are looking at Reeva’s iPhone with its “massive” number of text messages.

I do not believe the report which said there were no text messages or calls after 8pm on 13/2/2013. Maybe the report only said calls not text messages. But I am open to believing that some of these messages would be on her iPad. I am reasonably convinced that a motive might be found because of one of them and they are still investigating.

AGREE

9. Officers believe neither Reeva nor Pistorius were drunk.

But they could have had alcohol earlier in the evening but were not drunk at 3am? Otherwise, I wonder if one or both of them had cocaine that night or something similar like marijuana.

THOUGHT THAT MYSELF

10. They intend to push for a full murder trial and will refuse a lesser plea.

So does this imply that the police have definitely found evidence of permeditation and a motive? Maybe OP's lawyers have now advised him that his intruder story is not going to get him acquitted hence he wants to enjoy his last months of freedom with no bail conditions, escape if he can, feign suicidal thoughts to get sympathy and leniency, sell his properties and put proceeds into long-term investments. [/QUOTE]
Yes, I would say it does imply they have found evidence of premeditation, not sure it implies a motive though

I saw an excerpt from Fox News (I think) and a SA Law Enforcement Officer was being interviewed and she said they were very confident they had a strong case against Oscar

 

[soozieqtips]

Perumal also told how bloody swipes from Steenkamp’s hair – as well as other blood markings in the house – supported Pistorius’s story of where he picked her body up and carried it.

“There was a lot of blood on the scene. We can tell when Oscar picked Reeva up by the blood from her hair swipes.

“And from the blood markings we can see she was still alive at that time.

“There were also swipes on the wall where he carried her down the steps. And we can tell that by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead.”

Perumal said it had been frustrating to listen to the many “wrong conclusions” expressed by almost every person who had been following this case, as he could do nothing more than listen. And his lips are sealed – until he testifies at the trial.


A link to this interview has been posted many times on this site, maybe someone would kindly post it again for me as I cant seem to get it to work.

I trust this man as a seasoned forensic pathologist would not put his reputation on the line by making a public statement like this, if there were not evidence to prove it.

Well, we had home office pathologist Freddie Patel (in the UK) lying through his teeth to protect the police after someone died from a baton strike by an officer during the G20 riots, and throwing out vital evidence (the contents of the stomach) so that it couldn't be checked by anyone else. His testimony was overruled by several other experts and he's since been struck off for failing to meet the standards required for his position. In fact, the police seemed to have wheeled him out whenever they needed someone to falsify the facts. Although his findings were pretty much thrown out of court, there was always the off chance that someone else might have backed them and then 'reasonable doubt' would have been part of the equation. So it's not impossible that some pathologists might be willing to bend the truth in certain circumstances.

 

[liverpoollou]

So is your notion something like this: That many of the things that were stated during testimony at the hearing were not true, and prosecution is saving some aces in the hole for trial? I am just trying to get an idea of why we would suddenly consider that she was placed on the toilet. My worry about this theory is that there would already be a pile of liars for the prosecution, so why should we believe them at trial, and could they possibly be charged criminally for lying to a magistrate?

Did Botha actually say that the prosecution is not letting much evidence out at this point? I would like to see that interview.

Does this help?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-Pistorius-Hilton-Botha-defends-himself.html