General Discussion Thread #4

Estelle · Aug 25, 2013

Not well, but at least hes alive

http://citizen.co.za/25390/not-well-but-at-least-hes-alive/

Interested Bystander · Aug 25, 2013

Did we know that Graham Binge is a first cousin of OP's?

Exhibit E was that of one Graham Edward Binge (ph), a 33-year-old adult male, currently residing in Port Elizabeth. The applicant is his first cousin, related through their mother's sisters.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1302/22/sp.03.html

whiterum · Aug 25, 2013

MURDERER_SERVANT said:
Quote:
The Sunday Times has learnt that ballistic tests have shown Pistorius was, in fact, on his stumps when he pumped bullets through the toilet door in the early hours of Valentine's Day, killing his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp.
This is a crucial aspect of the case against Pistorius.

There is also the possibility that he might have put off his prosthetic legs between the two sets of shots after making phone calls...Just a theory..

OP, IMO could also have squatted on his prosthetics for support and a better aim with his two hands holding the gun , making his aim considerably lower

Also after he shot four bullets you would expect that he would have had gunpowder deposits all over his hands etc. So IMO he would have left finger or hand prints containing this residue on the passageway cupboard doors /walls area, around his height on stumps or otherwise , as he supposedly felt his way walking backwards in pitch darkness on his stumps back to the bed .

Also on the the blinds, curtains and sliding doors at stump level or otherwise when he opened them all again after shooting to scream from the balcony . This residue would IMO be found on all the areas he would have touched in the bedroom , according to his affidavit , before he dragged Reeva from the toilet covering himself in her blood.

Pisto_lius · Aug 25, 2013

Quote excerpted for brevity

MURDERER_SERVANT said:
Has anyone saved the timeline of the night we made on the prev threads?

The timeline I have noted:

Reeva's last tweets at 13 Feb 2013

* 03.37 a.m. - Reeva tweeted "What do you have up yours leeve for your love tomorrow?"

* 10.41 a.m. - Reevas last tweet [regarding an invitation from their Mini-friends for the next day, Valentines]: I'm there like a bear!!! Yayyyy!!!! X

-----------

- OP and Justin Divaris had a late lunch in Johannesburg. J.D. tried to convince OP to stay in Johannesburg that night and come for a boys dinner with him and a mutual friend.

- Reeva was in Pretoria doing some admin but said that she would get back to Samantha Greyvenstein and watch a movie with her that night. Later Reeva said she would rather spend the evening with OP at his home.

* 18:00 p.m. - Reeva arrived

* 18:10 p.m. - OP Arrived

* 18:30 p.m. - OP on the phone with friend Alex Pilakoutas

* ca. 20.00 p.m. - Neighbours heard shouting and screaming

* 20.10 p.m. - OP and cousin + friend Graham Binge exchanged various messages on the phone

* 20.25 20.45 p.m. - OP on the phone with cousin + friend Graham Binge

* 22.00 p.m. - OP claimed he and Reeva were in the bedroom, OP watched tv, Reeva did yoga - after Reeva finished her yoga they fell asleep

* ca. 22.00/22.30 p.m. - Reeva sent a SMS an Cecil Myers

* ca. 23.30 p.m. - Neighbours alerted security guards of a disturbance in the complex. Security were asked to tell Pistorius to keep the noise down

* ca. 01:30 a.m. - Going on arguments for hours and neighbors called again security

* ca. 02.00 03.00 a.m. Neighbours heard nonstop fighting, loud arguments, a femal screaming, gunshots, silence for 10/17 minutes, than more shots.

One neighbour claims to have heard the shot girlfriend had screamed: No, no, please dont!
http://www.sky.de/web/cms/de/mehr-sport-offiziell-mordanklage-gegen-oscar-pistorius.jsp
[A German video, aired 15 February - unfortunately not available for all countries - the relevant information = 03.00 min.)

* ca. 03.00 a.m. - OP awoke balcony. gun. shots. screamed for help on the balcony. [according to affidavit]

* shortly after 03:00 a.m. OP called female neighbour [probably daughter of Stander, lawyer, friend], said she should come immediately

* 03.08 a.m. OPs close friend Christo Menelaou woke with a start. Hed heard what sounded like three thunderclaps. He lay in bed waiting for the rain to start. Almost an hour later [~ 04.10 a.m.]he went to the bathroom. His window looks out onto OPs house. His house used to be in pitch darkness at night, except for one light that was always on, Christo (34) says. But that night all the lights were on and there were blue and red lights flashing outside the house.
http://drum.co.za/2013/04/26/hes-heartbroken/

* 03.19 a.m. - OP called Stander [according to OP's DT]

* 03.20 a.m. - OP called Netcare [according to OP's DT]

* 03.20 a.m. Female neighbour [probably daughter of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] came to the house

* 03.20 a.m. - Stander and unknown doctor arrived

* 03.20 a.m. - OP called father Henke + sister Aimee

* 03.30 a.m. - father Henke + sister Aimee arrived

* 03.42 a.m. - paramedics and first police officers arrived

* 03.55 a.m. - OP called friend Justin Divaris. Female neigbour [probably daughter of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] talked with Justin Divaris on phone

* 04:00 a.m. - Female neigbour [probably daughter of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] called coach Peet Van Zyl by OPs phone [I picked up the phone and saw it was Oscar's number and thought it was him phoning me.] and told him he have to rush to come to OPs house

* ??? a.m. Peet Van Zyl called Ampie Louw, OPs athletic coach

* 04.00 a.m. - further police officers arrived

* ??? a.m. - brother Carl + lawyer Kenny Oldwage were already at the scene when police arrived. Police called a locksmith to open a safe looking for a memory stick with details of offshort accounts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21514428
http://dominicavibes.dm/content/pistorius-hearing-told-of-shots-screams-more-shots/

* 04.15 a.m. - Hilton Botha arrived

* ??? a.m. Peet Van Zyl + Ampie Louw arrived
[at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage]

* 04.30 a.m. - Justin Divaris + girlfriend Samantha arrived
[at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage]

* 05.30 a.m. - OP is arrested and later brought to hospital for blood and DNA tests

* 08.35 a.m. A coroners van leaves the Silver Woods estate [with Reevas death body}

* 12.19 p.m. - OP arrives at the Mamelodi Hospital where blood tests are done

* 15.00 p.m. - OP arrives at the Boschkop Police Station where he spends the night
.
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Pisto_lius · Aug 25, 2013

whiterum said:
OP, IMO could also have squatted on his prosthetics for support and a better aim with his two hands holding the gun , making his aim considerably lower

Also after he shot four bullets you would expect that he would have had gunpowder deposits all over his hands etc. So IMO he would have left finger or hand prints containing this residue on the passageway cupboard doors /walls area, around his height on stumps or otherwise , as he supposedly felt his way walking backwards in pitch darkness on his stumps back to the bed .

Also on the the blinds, curtains and sliding doors at stump level or otherwise when he opened them all again after shooting to scream from the balcony . This residue would IMO be found on all the areas he would have touched in the bedroom , according to his affidavit , before he dragged Reeva from the toilet covering himself in her blood.

BIB - I totally agree with you!

There should be fingerprints with traces of gunshot residue (GSR) present in many places of the house without any blood before he touched Reev's blood soaked body. Also on his hands, his clothes, on the entrance wound holes on Reevas clothes and her skin and on the bullet holes in the door.

I was reminded of this when I saw the police markers at the shower door on the crime scene photos....

BUT

Botha went into the garage, where Pistorius, in a bloody shirt and shorts, wearing his prosthetic legs, was sitting on a gym bench, surrounded by training equipment. His head was in his hands, and he was crying. There was blood on him, but his hands were clean. We said, Did you wash your hands? And he said, Yes, because they were full of blood.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

Botha says when he arrived at Pistorius' luxury home in Pretoria, South Africa, he found the track star crying while wearing his prosthetic legs. His shirt and shorts were stained with Steenkamp's blood but he washed his hands after Pistorius says he attempted to give her CPR, Botha said.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...ase-convinced-intentionally/story?id=19080527

With this he cleverly washed away all traces of GSR from his hands (and face?).

* How and why was he allowed to wash his hands?

* Did the security guards, the neighbours, the unknown doctor, all who arrived the scene at first see him washing his hands?

I hope they took swab tests on his hands, face and clothes for GSR when he was taken to the police station for further questioning or at the Mamelodi Hospital.

Some information about GSR
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html
.
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Estelle · Aug 25, 2013

Pisto_lius said:
Quote excerpted for brevity

The timeline I have noted:

Reeva's last tweets at 13 Feb 2013

* 03.37 a.m. - Reeva tweeted "What do you have up your sleeve for your love tomorrow?"

* 10.41 a.m. - Reeva’s last tweet [regarding an invitation from their Mini-friends for the next day, Valentine’s]: “I'm there like a bear!!! Yayyyy!!!! X“

-----------

- OP and Justin Divaris had a late lunch in Johannesburg. J.D. tried to convince OP to stay in Johannesburg that night and come for a boy’s dinner with him and a mutual friend. Valerie Berkow-Kaye, an estate agent attended a party with Pistorius in the afternoon (evening).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...at-central-piece-of-evidence-against-him.html

- Reeva was in Pretoria doing some “admin” but said that she would get back to Samantha Greyvenstein and watch a movie with her that night. Reeva took four photos and frames into a shop which she wanted gift-wrapped. http://www.looklocal.co.za/lookloca...etail&pid=4980310&Reeva’s-last-gift-for-Oscar

Later Reeva said she would rather spend the evening with OP at his home.

* 18:00 p.m. - Reeva arrived

* 18:10 p.m. - OP arrived, did not garage his car and left keys in ignition

* 18:30 p.m. - OP on the phone with friend Alex Pilakoutas

* ca. 20.00 p.m. - Neighbours heard shouting and screaming

* 20.10 p.m. - OP and cousin + friend Graham Binge exchanged various messages on the phone

* 20.25 – 20.45 p.m. - OP on the phone with cousin + friend Graham Binge

* 22.00 p.m. - OP claimed he and Reeva were in the bedroom, OP watched tv, Reeva did yoga - after Reeva finished her yoga they fell asleep

* ca. 22.00/22.30 p.m. - Reeva sent a SMS an Cecil Myers

* ca. 23.30 p.m. - Neighbours alerted security guards of a disturbance in the complex. Security were asked to tell Pistorius to keep the noise down

* ca. 01:30 a.m. - Going on arguments for hours and neighbors called again security

* ca. 02.00 – 03.00 a.m. – Neighbours heard nonstop fighting, loud arguments, a femal screaming, gunshots, silence for 10/17 minutes, than more shots.

One neighbour claims to have heard the shot girlfriend had screamed: “No, no, please don’t!”
http://www.sky.de/web/cms/de/mehr-sport-offiziell-mordanklage-gegen-oscar-pistorius.jsp
[A German video, aired 15 February - unfortunately not available for all countries - the relevant information = 03.00 min.)

* ca. 03.00 a.m. - OP awoke… balcony…. gun…. shots…. screamed for help on the balcony…. [according to affidavit]

* shortly after 03:00 a.m. – OP called female neighbour [probably daughter of Stander, lawyer, friend], said she should come immediately

* 03.08 a.m. – OP’s close friend Christo Menelaou woke with a start. He’d heard what sounded like three thunderclaps. He lay in bed waiting for the rain to start. Almost an hour later [~ 04.10 a.m.]he went to the bathroom. His window looks out onto OP’s house. “His house used to be in pitch darkness at night, except for one light that was always on,” Christo (34) says. But that night all the lights were on and there were blue and red lights flashing outside the house.
http://drum.co.za/2013/04/26/hes-heartbroken/

* 03.19 a.m. - OP called Stander [according to OP's DT]

* 03.20 a.m. - OP called Netcare [according to OP's DT]

* 03.20 a.m. – Female neighbour [probably daughter of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] came to the house

* 03.20 a.m. - Stander and unknown doctor arrived

* 03.20 a.m. - OP called father Henke + sister Aimee

* 03.30 a.m. - father Henke + sister Aimee arrived

* 03.42 a.m. - paramedics and first police officers arrived

* 03.55 a.m. - OP called friend Justin Divaris. Female neigbour [probably daughter of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] talked with Justin Divaris on phone

* 04:00 a.m. - Female neigbour [probably daughter of Stander, called by OP shortly after 03.00 a.m.] called coach Peet Van Zyl by OP’s phone [“I picked up the phone and saw it was Oscar's number and thought it was him phoning me.”] and told him he have to rush to come to OP’s house

* ??? a.m. – Peet Van Zyl called Ampie Louw, OP’s athletic coach

* 04.00 a.m. - further police officers arrived

* ??? a.m. - brother Carl + lawyer Kenny Oldwage were already at the scene when police arrived. Police called a locksmith to open a safe looking for a memory stick with details of offshort accounts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21514428
http://dominicavibes.dm/content/pistorius-hearing-told-of-shots-screams-more-shots/

* 04.15 a.m. - Hilton Botha arrived

* ??? a.m. – Peet Van Zyl + Ampie Louw arrived
[at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage]

* 04.30 a.m. - Justin Divaris + girlfriend Samantha arrived
[at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage]

* 05.30 a.m. - OP is arrested and later brought to hospital for blood and DNA tests

* 08.35 a.m. – A coroner’s van leaves the Silver Woods estate [with Reeva’s death body}

* 12.19 p.m. - OP arrives at the Mamelodi Hospital where blood tests are done

* 15.00 p.m. - OP arrives at the Boschkop Police Station where he spends the night
.
.

I have added what is in light red.

Feynman · Aug 25, 2013

Interested Bystander said:
He lived on the Silver Woods Estate not Silver Lakes though I confess I don't know anything about the Silver Lakes security. I imagine it would have been fairly good.

Yes, Silver Woods, thanks for the correction. With regard to previous breaches of security, the head of security at Silver Woods stated that there had been 4 previous "incidents" at SW in the past 3 years, the most recent one occurring in October 2011. See

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8TF4MrO8Q

starting around 45:50.

Estelle · Aug 25, 2013

whiterum said:
OP, IMO could also have squatted on his prosthetics for support and a better aim with his two hands holding the gun , making his aim considerably lower

I definitely agree that OP could have "squatted on his prosthetics" for support as he knew somehow probably due to her screams that Reeva was cowering behind the door so she was very low. Therefore it makes sense for the gunman to get down low too to fire the shots for a better aim as whiterum said.

IMO OP was never on his stumps that night and they never went to bed. Also if they were arguing most of the night, I cannot imagine that they made love either even though evidence of sexual activity was found in the bed. It was probably from an earlier evening and OP had not changed the sheets.

I cannot find the link to this report of sexual activity now. Has anyone got it?

How can the Prosecution prove whether OP had his stumps on or not?

Estelle · Aug 25, 2013

Oscar Pistorius Statement Analysis by Kaaryn Gough

"After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep. I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

"During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

Change of language from intruders to someone. It is important to note when a persons Personal Dictionary changes. People dont change their language arbitrarily. People use very specific words and are consistent with their language as long as their relationship/experience with the item/person remains the same. A change in language is expected when the relationship/experience with the item/person changes. The change of language from intruders to someone at this point in the story, tells us that the subject viewed whoever was in the bathroom differently than from those entering homes with a view to commit crime. someone is neutral and could be anyone, friend or foe, and the use of it at this point in the story tells us that the subject did not consider the someone in the bathroom to be an intruder.

Also note: someone is singular. The subject believed only one person was in the bathroom.