General Discussion Thread #4

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According to the graphic @ http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/162790733
(Top right hand corner) Matthew Buirski is a former roommate of OP.

Kudos to you for clarifying this.

He is the youngest of 3 MMA brothers.
http://knuxx.com/sa/2012/10/triple-threat-the-buirski-brothers/

Must know a lot about Oscar if he lived with him for a while.

"In training David has knocked my front tooth out with a knee, Gareth knocked both my front teeth out practicing his overhand right, Gareth has also broken my finger so I can defiantly say that it’s been tough but also made me tougher. I said to Gareth that when he won the KO bonus at EFC 16 that he owes me a few bucks for my teeth! Haahaa!"

Above: Matt's talking about his brothers! (From the link.)
 
This is only a blog but with an interesting post (number 1212) about Reeva crying out "please don't" at 2 am. This post was dated 16 Feb 2013. Other than very recently I have not seen this reported before.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/505314-Oscar-Pistorius-shoots-girlfriend/page81


A few months ago (March) I translated a German video with an interview (aired 15 Feb 2013) with Christoph Leistner (lawyer born and living in Pretoria) about the OP case. Leistner reported:

This morning it was put about on a radio interview that one neighbour claims to have heard the shot girlfriend had screamed: “No, no, please don’t!”

Here you can read the whole transcript of the video
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills his girlfriend, charged with murder #3


And there was another video (sadly no longer available) where the same witness statement was reported: a female neighbour who lives 50 meters away from OP's house have heard a woman's voice screaming: “No, no, please don’t!”
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When I searched for the transcript of the above mentioned video I found again a posting from whiterum [TXL :)] with an also interesting information

Prosecutor Gerrie Nel told the court in the BH at 19 Feb:

'The broken door is important... She was there, she locked the door for a purpose, I'm not allowed to give you that purpose now.'

http://www.chingaone.com/2013/02/pistorius-armed-himself-attached-his.html
https://twitter.com/SmithInAfrica/status/303786621491347456

There were no other sources (media) than the above-mentioned who reported about this statement.

You can find the discussions we have had about it in the thread "Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills his girlfriend, charged with murder #3"on page 80 (et seq.), beginning at post #1991.
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THE UNKNOWN WITNESSES

It's not certain what connections a Johannesburg-based cage fighter has to the case. Also intriguing is what testimony may come from Elizabeth de Jager of the South African Weather Service.

http://www.bcnn5.com/2013/08/witnes...orius-temper-use-of-guns-in-murder-trial.html

Who is this cage fighter who will be a witness? What do you think he will be able to say?


I found these information about OP and "cage-fighter"

Today, Pistorius trains by sparring with cage fighters. His trainer Jannie Brooks took six months to realise his client had no legs. He wore long trousers. Nothing in his demeanour suggested otherwise.

http://www.shortlist.com/entertainment/sport/oscar-pistorius-a-life-under-scrutiny

And maybe more interesting is this website with some information about a cage-fighter named *CJ*

http://www.mmafreeagent.com/fighter/Charles-Johnson-1469.html

I unfortunately could not find any information where he lives.

However, remember there is a *Charl Peter Johnson* on the witness list.

Sometimes names are not written correctly and maybe the correct name of this witness is *Charles Johnson* and this guy is one of OP's sparring partners ? :)
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I agree but does Quinton really have a right not to be a witness?


(Quote excerpted for brevity)

Lawyers - prosecutor and defence - give a list with the names of their intended witnesses to the judge before the trial starts. They also describe the subjects on which the witness's testimony is sought and shall state why such subjects are relevant to the case.

Then it is the judge who decides what evidence and testimony will admitted before the court.

Witnesses who are ordered by the judge to testify, receive a subpoena from the court and in general they are obliged to testify. If they refuse they can be held in contempt of court and jailed and/or fined.
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http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...re-fighting-before-her-death-her-mother-says/

Why isn't Gwyn Guscott or Reeva's parents witnesses for the Prosecution?

If it takes you two days for you to cool off from an argument with a guy, and you're a model who can attract any guy you want almost, why would you continue to pursue him and try to patch things up (as if it's your fault)?

IMO OP sounds like a misogynist who charms you off your feet at first and when you start loving them, they abuse you. I also think he has abandonment issues because his mother died when he was 15yo. Death of a loved one is the ultimate abandonment. For a woman who was so against domestic violence to the extent that she had planned to give a talk about it on Valentine's Day yet she was in a relationship with a man whose track record and even during the time she knew him was one of violence, fast cars and guns, it amazes me that it seems that Reeva kept going back for more.

I think she was quite naive for a 29yo woman and thought unconditional love conquered all. I was absolutely stunned when I read that Reeva did not even see OP for Christmas, knew he was in Cape Town and paid her own way there uninvited to be with him over New Year's Eve. I get the impression that Reeva was head over heels in love with OP and loved the challenge! I now see them as a very incompatible couple from what I have read. If it is true, that OP had intended to end their relationship that night, and go back to the party, why did they keep arguing? OP seems to have ignored her much of the night on the phone with a call at 6.30pm and another at 8pm for about 40 minutes, and the arguments started at 8pm according to ear witnesses, so it was already heated and loud, so I cannot understand why Reeva did not leave and meet Cecil Myers as planned about 10pm.

I used to think that OP would not allow her to leave but if he wanted to end it surely he could have told her over dinner and that would have been it. She would have gone back home with relationship ended and he could have gone back to his party as he wanted to do. Now there does not seem to have been any jealousy on OP's behalf with ex-boyfriends texting her as Francois Hougaard was out of the picture, so why stay when she was not wanted?

Had OP made promises to Reeva that he did not want to keep now eg living together? What on earth could they have been arguing so loudly about for seven hours enough to end in Reeva's death? My main hunch is that she found out a secret about him that night that he did not want anyone to know eg illegal drugs at the Olympics and cocaine is one of them.

My curiosity on this case stems from this aspect.

What do you think they could have been arguing about?

I wonder if at the trial we will get to know the truth about this. That is why, like Reeva's parents, I want to know, "Why did you kill our daughter?"

Nothing makes sense to me right now. What about you?
I precisely agree with you, Estelle! Not even a married couple wants a divorce would fight through so many hours in a row. But your question of "why??" I can't answer; I have no idea.
 
A few months ago (March) I translated a German video with an interview (aired 15 Feb 2013) with Christoph Leistner (lawyer born and living in Pretoria) about the OP case. Leistner reported:



Here you can read the whole transcript of the video
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Oscar Pistorius shoots and kills his girlfriend, charged with murder #3


And there was another video (sadly no longer available) where the same witness statement was reported: a female neighbour who lives 50 meters away from OP's house have heard a woman's voice screaming: “No, no, please don’t!”
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Thank you for that. I am relatively new here and have not caught up with everything, though I have been trying to read a few pages a day after Shane13 pointed out to me that he had already posted something I was commenting on. How on earth can he claim it was an accident if she was heard to say that.
 
Thank you for that. I am relatively new here and have not caught up with everything, though I have been trying to read a few pages a day after Shane13 pointed out to me that he had already posted something I was commenting on. How on earth can he claim it was an accident if she was heard to say that.

Well we should not get married to any particular words Reeva may or may not have said, as this is unconfirmed.

But specific words are not necessary, I would think.

If several earwitnesses state they heard a female voice emanating loud arguing (along with a male voice), then finally a female scream, and just a day or 2 ago I posted new info that said a scream was also heard after the first shot--but before the final volley of shots. All this even without specific words indicates that Reeva was not asleep, but was continuously arguing with him, and then likely was threatened with the gun, and was then shot and screamed again.

So OP's entire affidavit alibi appears to collapse since it all rests on Reeva being asleep until the last moments before him shooting into the toilet door.

And also remember that Beeld reported that cops and/or estate security were there just a couple of hours before the final shooting due to loud arguing.
 
I found these information about OP and "cage-fighter"



And maybe more interesting is this website with some information about a cage-fighter named *CJ*

http://www.mmafreeagent.com/fighter/Charles-Johnson-1469.html

I unfortunately could not find any information where he lives.

However, remember there is a *Charl Peter Johnson* on the witness list.

Sometimes names are not written correctly and maybe the correct name of this witness is *Charles Johnson* and this guy is one of OP's sparring partners ? :)
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No.

We already know who the Cage/MMA fighter is--posted yesterday as 1 of the 3 brothers I posted, but first noted by Murphy's Law. He is Matthew Buirski.

And there is indeed a "Charl Peter Johnson" in SA. apparently no spelling error, as one would think that one's wife would know...

See this link for "Charl Peter Johnson."
http://etd.uovs.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-07232013-101616/unrestricted/BurgerM.pdf

It is the doctoral thesis for Michelle Burger, who acknowledges her husband Charl Peter Johnson on page xii.

Michelle Burger is also on the witness list, yes? So I guess they must be among the neighbors?

But I think CP Johnson is probably not a Cage fighter [but who knows?] and we already know who the cage fighter is. See the posts by Murphy's Law and myself on this thread as we already noted the cage fighter.
 
(Quote excerpted for brevity)

Lawyers - prosecutor and defence - give a list with the names of their intended witnesses to the judge before the trial starts. They also describe the subjects on which the witness's testimony is sought and shall state why such subjects are relevant to the case.

Then it is the judge who decides what evidence and testimony will admitted before the court.

Witnesses who are ordered by the judge to testify, receive a subpoena from the court and in general they are obliged to testify. If they refuse they can be held in contempt of court and jailed and/or fined.
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I am now wondering if more witnesses can be added to the Prosecution Witness List before March 2014. New evidence could still be added, I suppose. Would that be a correct assumption?
 
One thing I was wondering about is the trial length.

From what I read there will be a 2-week maximum set.

Very different from here in the USA, where trials are of very different lengths depending on complexity, # of witnesses etc.

But is that 2 week maximum for OP's trial a general thing there, or has this judge set that for this trial specifically?
 
OT, but tangentially related

Police officers with criminal records cannot be summarily dismissed in SA,
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Cops-protected-by-labour-law-Phiyega-20130827

"...a recent audit up to January 2010, which found 1 448 officers had criminal records. Parliament heard in August that most of the officers were convicted after joining the service, and that none of them had been dismissed yet..."
 
Dexter Azzi is not on the Prosecution List but he could tell this story about OP at the trial:

Mike Azzi’s son Dexter has often spent the weekend at Pistorius’s home.

He said of the shooting: “I believe it was an accident, as Oscar said it was. We’ve spoken over texts. He often asks people to keep Reeva in his prayers. It’s one of the first things he says to me every time we speak.

“He has said to me on a number of occasions that he’s really hurting and he’s a broken man.”

Dexter was at the house two weeks before Christmas and recalled how he knocked over a fan and Pistorius became panic-stricken.

The athlete immediately grabbed his gun for protection before shouting to check if Dexter was OK.

He said: “I can believe Oscar’s story is true. I know he was paranoid in that sense because of things that went on.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-suicidal-reveals-best-1753776#ixzz2dFKCh2f2
 
One thing I was wondering about is the trial length.

From what I read there will be a 2-week maximum set.

Very different from here in the USA, where trials are of very different lengths depending on complexity, # of witnesses etc.

But is that 2 week maximum for OP's trial a general thing there, or has this judge set that for this trial specifically?

A judge in the North Gauteng High Court will hear the case from March 3 to March 20, Gerrie Nel, the prosecutor, said in Pretoria, the capital.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-face-court-hearing-over-murder-of-girlfriend

I had previously thought it would be three weeks but you are right it is only two weeks not counting weekends. It does not sound to be enough time. I also assumed that the time could be extended if necessary.

Do you think the Defence will try to use tactics to delay the trial it as long as they can so that OP can enjoy longer freedom while on bail?

Or do you think they will try get it over with as soon as possible in case OP has plans to participate in the next Olympic and Paralympic Games in Brazil in 2016 assuming his Defence is assuring him that he will not be found guilty?

Another thought I have had lately is whether OP will try to escape to a country without an extradition agreement so he can represent that country in the Olympics if he now realises that the Prosecution might have enough evidence to put him in jail?
 
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-face-court-hearing-over-murder-of-girlfriend

I had previously thought it would be three weeks but you are right it is only two weeks not counting weekends. It does not sound to be enough time. I also assumed that the time could be extended if necessary.

Do you think the Defence will try to use tactics to delay the trial it as long as they can so that OP can enjoy longer freedom while on bail?

Or do you think they will try get it over with as soon as possible in case OP has plans to participate in the next Olympic and Paralympic Games in Brazil in 2016 assuming his Defence is assuring him that he will not be found guilty?

Another thought I have had lately is whether OP will try to escape to a country without an extradition agreement so he can represent that country in the Olympics if he now realises that the Prosecution might have enough evidence to put him in jail?

Well I can see DT trying to delay this for whatever reasons. But best for some attorney in SA to address how this goes.

I also saw a week or so ago, some MSM story whereby someone said the whole legal process would be 4 years.

I presume this might mean if he loses at the 1st level, and succeding levels, he can appeal successively to the final level.

We already know he will be out on bail all the while.

I don't think he will skip bail for various reasons that you can speculate on...
 
OT, but fascinating new news story from City Press in SA.

Most of you will enjoy, I think.

It's about how the apartheid regime ran the "Operation Blackwash", which was a campaign to win the hearts and minds of American blacks in the 1970s, so as to try to stop American Govt from acting against the SA Apartheid Regime.

http://www.citypress.co.za/columnists/operation-blackwash/
 
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-face-court-hearing-over-murder-of-girlfriend

I had previously thought it would be three weeks but you are right it is only two weeks not counting weekends. It does not sound to be enough time. I also assumed that the time could be extended if necessary.

Do you think the Defence will try to use tactics to delay the trial it as long as they can so that OP can enjoy longer freedom while on bail?

Or do you think they will try get it over with as soon as possible in case OP has plans to participate in the next Olympic and Paralympic Games in Brazil in 2016 assuming his Defence is assuring him that he will not be found guilty?

Another thought I have had lately is whether OP will try to escape to a country without an extradition agreement so he can represent that country in the Olympics if he now realises that the Prosecution might have enough evidence to put him in jail?

If the judge determines the length of the case (having seen the evidence) 2 weeks could indicate he thinks it is an open and shut case but methinks OP's lawyers are too clever and may keep this case going for some months, if not years. Comment from CNN:-

"The first phase of the trial will take place in March, but the entire trial could take place at various times across a year or more because of potential motions and postponements along the way.

In the indictment, the prosecutors included a list of more than 100 witnesses the state might call. The Pistorius legal team has not released a witness list."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/19/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-steenkamp-case
 
There is an interesting section in this video where OP is putting on his "every day" prostheses @ 00.27 secs. I was amazed that all he needed to do was pop his stump into his prosthesis and get up and walk. In seconds he was mobile. It begs the question as to why he would walk on stumps? He will probably claim he could not see them in the dark but surely he would have placed them by the bed and the curtains were open at the time he got up. I wonder whether he wears the "socks" on his stumps at all times, as protection?

Four-time Olympic medalist shocked over Pistorius case - YouTube
 
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