General Discussion Thread #4

[Lemon Tree]

Breaking news: OP fails in bid to block extra gun charges

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Oscar-Pistorius-to-face-gun-charges-20131029

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar

 

[Cherry]

Good.

 

[Estelle]

"Oscar Pistorius's legal team has failed in its bid to stop gun charges from being added to his murder indictment. I was fortunate enough to attend the 29th Annual Conference of the South African Society for Atmospheric Sciences (SASAS).

http://newswall.co.za/news/latest/e.../buesh.338983?utm_source=email&utm_channel=xx

The National Director of Public Prosecutions, Mxolisi Nxasana, rejected the bid by Pistorius's legal team to prevent the addition of the charges to his charge sheet.

The charges are related to two incidents where Pistorius allegedly fired a gun in public places.

The NPA confirmed the addition of the charges, and also confirmed that it had turned down requests by Pistorius' legal team to prevent the additional charges being added, according to EWN.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Oscar-Pistorius-to-face-gun-charges-20131029

 

[Estelle]

So are these all the charges now?

1. Premeditated murder

2. Possession of illegal ammunition

3. Using a firearm in a public place - he shot wildly into the air while travelling in an open-top car while his ex-girlfriend was driving it in 2012.

4. Using a firearm in a public place - in restaurant in January 2013

Have I got these correct?

I wonder what the penalties are for the last three?

Previous gun crime will lend credence to the state's case that he is a serial offender but will it undercut his claim that the murder was an impulsive reaction?

His lawyers reportedly argued that the charges should not be added because the incidents occurred outside the jurisdiction of the high court in Pretoria.

But newly appointed National Director of Public Prosecutions, Mxolisi Nxasana, reportedly rejected the arguments.

 

[Lemon Tree]

So are these all the charges now?

1. Premeditated murder

2. Possession of illegal ammunition

3. Using a firearm in a public place - he shot wildly into the air while travelling in an open-top car while his ex-girlfriend was driving it in 2012.

4. Using a firearm in a public place - in restaurant in January 2013

Snipped for brevity

5. Defeating the ends of justice (if OP's moving RS' body is found to be suspect)

 

[Estelle]

5. Defeating the ends of justice (if OP's moving RS' body is found to be suspect)

Yes

Interfering with the crime scene

Moving the body

Perjury if found to be lying in his affidavit.

 

[Estelle]

What evidence is there of OP showing any remorse?

The courts often look at this aspect.

 

[Estelle]

Do you think that there could be any extenuating circumstances?

If so, what could they be?

 

[Interested Bystander]

What evidence is there of OP showing any remorse?

The courts often look at this aspect.

If his blubbing in court is considered to show remorse he wins hands down. However, I am cynical and think his court behaviour had more to do with his realisation of what a dire situation he is in.

 

[Estelle]

If his blubbing in court is considered to show remorse he wins hands down. However, I am cynical and think his court behaviour had more to do with his realisation of what a dire situation he is in.

I think it was all about self-pity that maybe....just maybe....he was actually going to be disciplined and punished for the first time in his life.

I have not seen any genuine behaviour reported to us where he said or did something which showed remorse.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have been re-reading the bail hearing notes taken at the time so have assumed the wording to be correct.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-in-court-day-2-20130220

13:48 - Roux: A spent bullet cartridge was found in the toilet bowl that wasn't discovered by your officers. Botha: Yes.


What does spent bullet cartridge mean to anyone? To me it does not mean the bullet itself but the casing. Am I right or completely wrong? Would you expect Roux to know the difference between the bullet and a spent cartridge?

The reason I ask is that according to the bail hearing tweets Roux said that they had found a spent bullet cartridge in the toilet bowl. How would the spent casing come to be in the toilet bowl other than if OP actually fired the gun whilst in the toilet cubicle OR through its open doorway. If the door was locked, surely all spent cartridges would be outside the toilet cubicle?

Do you think the report was incorrect and how can we verify exactly what was said in court?

 

[Feynman]

"The correct terminology for the cartridge components are bullet, case, primer, and propellant or gunpowder. Each component is manufactured separately and then assembled into the cartridge."

That's from http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Ammunition.html

So I think "cartridge" refers to the whole shebang. IIRC, three casings were found in the bathroom (not the toilet) and one was found further away, maybe around the bathroom entrance.

Surely Roux meant "bullet", although it's possible in SA the terms are loosely interchangeable. "Cartridge" according to the above makes no sense at all. "Casing" is not nonsensical, but if there had been a casing in the toilet it would be a wildly stupendous piece of evidence - completely wiping out OP's version of events.

 

[Estelle]

I have been re-reading the bail hearing notes taken at the time so have assumed the wording to be correct.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-in-court-day-2-20130220

13:48 - Roux: A spent bullet cartridge was found in the toilet bowl that wasn't discovered by your officers. Botha: Yes.


What does spent bullet cartridge mean to anyone? To me it does not mean the bullet itself but the casing. Am I right or completely wrong? Would you expect Roux to know the difference between the bullet and a spent cartridge?

The reason I ask is that according to the bail hearing tweets Roux said that they had found a spent bullet cartridge in the toilet bowl. How would the spent casing come to be in the toilet bowl other than if OP actually fired the gun whilst in the toilet cubicle OR through its open doorway. If the door was locked, surely all spent cartridges would be outside the toilet cubicle?

Do you think the report was incorrect and how can we verify exactly what was said in court?

I have never understood this either as I have had no experience with guns.

Maybe Feynman's explanation is correct otherwise you would not think that Roux would point it out.

 

[Interested Bystander]

In an attempt to try to find exactly what Roux said about a cartridge or bullet, on a Google search I came across this article. I have not seen it before but the cartridge/bullet incident is quoted as Roux saying "spent bullet projectile". This would make more sense.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/...r-Pistorius-Day-2-Wrap-Up-and-Bail-Prediction

 

[Estelle]

In an attempt to try to find exactly what Roux said about a cartridge or bullet, on a Google search I came across this article. I have not seen it before but the cartridge/bullet incident is quoted as Roux saying "spent bullet projectile". This would make more sense.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/...r-Pistorius-Day-2-Wrap-Up-and-Bail-Prediction

"Roux casts major doubt on the quality of the police investigation. They missed finding a spent bullet projectile or cartridge in the toilet bowl.

Roux: Our forensics expert went through the toilet carefully on the afternoon of the shooting when we got access. A spent bullet projectile was found in the toilet bowl that wasn't discovered by your officers.

Botha agrees."

 

[songline]

http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/44806/20131011/oscar-pistorius-trial-date.htm

BBM It appears that the very minimum sentence will be at least five years. I had never seen this sentence quoted before.

There are four other questions I would like to pose to all of you:

1. What are the chances that OP will escape to a non-extradition country if he wants to participate in the 2016 Olympic Games in Brazil as he is getting older and his days are numbered athletically? We most feared that after his Bail Hearing. Do you still feel that this is likely?

2. What is the charge for possession of illegal ammunition?

3. Are Reeva's parents still suing him or will they wait until the end of his trial in March 2014?

4. How will his disability affect the sentencing and the conditions at which prison he is sent to?

I don’t think I can answer your questions but they are good questions.
but we have all seen how disabled people do get consideration, and so I hope her parents sure him in every way they can and maybe they do need to wait till his trial is over (not sure).
From the day I read everything about this very angry man, I did hope he goes to prison for life. not 5 years not 15 either....
He is a despicable throw away. he could have been an inspiration. He should have been grateful for what he accomplished and that a stunning angel had a heart to take him on with his disabilities.
But not this arrogant SOB he had to get even because she was going to leave.
Now he has to pay and stay locked up for life.

 

[Lemon Tree]

According to the City Press online news, An indictment was served on murder-accused athlete Oscar Pistorius on Wednesday (November 20 2013).

Full indictment document on Scribd

There are Four Counts: 1 count for murder and 3 counts related to Contravening the Firearms Control Act.

Interestingly, Count 1 for murder has no alternative (i.e. culpable homicide) and Count 4 has no alternative...

Any ideas why this would be?

 

[Estelle]

According to the City Press online news, An indictment was served on murder-accused athlete Oscar Pistorius on Wednesday (November 20 2013).

Full indictment document on Scribd

There are Four Counts: 1 count for murder and 3 counts related to Contravening the Firearms Control Act.

Interestingly, Count 1 for murder has no alternative (i.e. culpable homicide) and Count 4 has no alternative...

Any ideas why this would be?

I am not a lawyer but IMO the Prosecution must be sure that they had enough evidence to prove Counts 1 and 4 otherwise they would have given alternatives.

 

[Estelle]

Viewpoints

Athletes’ criminal records hold greater impact in public eye
December 4, 2013 10:34 PM

Snippets from this article:

One of the most inspiring stories to come out of the Olympics in recent memory was that of Oscar Pistorius.

Another athlete, Aaron Hernandez was a star tight end for the New England Patriots. Heralded as one of the best tight ends of the current generation, he was a hero for many young fans. Early this past summer, Hernandez was charged for first degree murder of amateur football player Odin Lloyd. Hernandez is also currently being questioned in regards to his involvement in a Florida lawsuit. Pistorius and Hernandez are two extreme examples of professional athletes committing criminal acts during the height of their fame. In recent years, other high profile athletes once revered for their perseverance and skill committed acts which diminished their standing in the court of public opinion.

Accountability remains the biggest concern when addressing the issue of athletes who break the law. Not every professional athlete gets in trouble with the law or the league that they play for, although, it seems that the proportion of those who do is increasing. Those athletes mentioned and others like them demonstrated through their actions that they think of themselves as above the rules; that their social standing and wealth endows them with the ability to act however they choose. Such thinking is not only false, but it demonstrates a lack of respect for the fans who support them. Many athletes act as if their talents are gifts the public are privileged to enjoy. However, it is the fan which allows the athlete to showcase his or her talents; it is the fan who allows the athlete to gain the monetary rewards of a successful career.

The question of how to punish athletes who possess the money and connections to work the system in their favor is often debated. Technicalities seem to play a larger role in holding athletes responsible for their actions than does the actual evidence for or against them. Placing blame on persons other than themselves is now a common defense. As recently as October, Alex Rodriguez claimed he believed the drugs he received from a clinic were allowed under MLB guidelines and that it was the fault of the clinic that he ended up testing positive for banned substances. Professional athletes need to be taught that before they are professional athletes, they are human beings, fathers, brothers and heroes for millions of fans. Therefore, being a morally sound role model is more important than scoring that winning points or gaining even a fraction of an edge over an opponent.

http://umwbullet.com/2013/12/04/athletes-criminal-records-hold-greater-impact-in-public-eye/

 

[Estelle]

No legs and one arm but Lucas Sithole is a 'rolling inspiration'
December 5, 2013

South Africa may just have found another Paralympian to inspire a nation -- and perhaps the world. After "Blade Runner" Oscar Pistorius became the first double-amputee runner to compete at an Olympics, and Natalie Du Toit excelled in the pool, Lucas Sithole -- who lost both his legs and most of his right arm when he fell under a train aged 12 -- became the first South African to win a title at tennis' U.S. Open. "Natalie made a huge impact on South African sport, the same as Oscar," the nation's Davis Cup captain, John-Laffnie De Jager, told CNN. "Lucas can play the same role." Judging by the welcome he received in Johannesburg following his historic victory in New York in September, Sithole is well on his way.

And some will say Sithole can take over from Pistorius in capturing the hearts of South Africans after the latter's fall from grace. There is no doubting that Pistorius' exploits on the track led to plaudits and a massive following -- without the use of half his legs he reached the semifinals at London 2012 competing against able-bodied athletes -- but his reputation has suffered since he was accused of murdering his model girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp. "Lucas is fortunate that people in South Africa have already recognized athletes with a disability probably stronger than other countries," says Sithole's coach, Holger Losch.

South Africa's president, Jacob Zuma, sent Sithole a message of congratulations for his achievement at Flushing Meadows when he downed David Wagner on the latter's home soil. "It was no small feat," Zuma said in a statement. "He has made both the government and the people of South Africa immensely proud."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/05/s...le-wheelchair-tennis-south-africa/?hpt=isp_t3