General Discussion Thread No. 16

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Gran obviously got her information directly from Kate and Gerry, and all of it sounds like excuses for the DNA presence to me.

One child wearing another's clothing would not cause the presences of bodily fluids and hair, and the scent of a cadaver. :rolleyes: So it's basically nonsense.

And I don't think Gran is helping anything by stating that Madeleine "must have been drugged" by a kidnapper. Number one, it makes no sense. Number two, it admits she might have had drugs in her system to make her sleep so well. That will just remind people that the drugs might have come from the parents. :croc:

Also, when Gran says that Madeleine would have "screamed the house down," that just reminds me of the rumors we've had of Kate's diary, which described Madaleine as "hysterical" and unmanageable. So it gives a totally wrong view if Gran was trying to drum up sympathy for the parents.

Because now people will think it's even more plausible that a shrieking child might be given drugs to make her docile enough so the parents could leave her, because they don't want her "screaming" while they are gone. Although, someone in the same building actually did hear Madeleine calling for her Daddy one night. :furious:

I don't think the McCann defense team will look back on Gran's statements as doing them a favor at all.
 
One child wearing another's clothing would not cause the presences of bodily fluids and hair, and the scent of a cadaver. :rolleyes: So it's basically nonsense.

Exactly! They are trying to come up with any excuse but they are so ridiculous. :rolleyes:
 
The crux of this case is that the McCann’s could not afford to have an autopsy done, or it would reveal they were not only culpable for their daughter’s death by leaving her unattended, but were directly responsible for the subsequent fatal accident by sedating her.

The coroner may have discovered, other things...

They disposed of the body so thoroughly, that Gerry is confident enough to taunt police with, “find the body and prove we killed her...” Without a body it will be complicated to prove, relying on testimonies and forensics. Hence, Gerry goads the PJ to “bring it on!”

Unable to comment on the investigation, they have prompted Granny McCann to volunteer the information that, “the kidnapper must have drugged Madeleine, because she didn’t scream.” That will explain any sedatives detected in the hair by FSS test results, due tomorrow!

These lawyers are good!

Meanwhile, keep stalking other people’s kids while ‘Looking for Madeleine.’
 
Exactly! They are trying to come up with any excuse but they are so ridiculous. :rolleyes:

sigh

you are talking about an old interview with Granny that the Mirror did which has been regurgutated by the Belfast Telegraph on a slow news day

Granny probably spouted off when a microphone was thrust in front of her - it means nothing more than that
 
The crux of this case is that the McCann’s could not afford to have an autopsy done, or it would reveal they were not only culpable for their daughter’s death by leaving her unattended, but were directly responsible for the subsequent fatal accident by sedating her.

The coroner may have discovered, other things...

They disposed of the body so thoroughly, that Gerry is confident enough to taunt police with, “find the body and prove we killed her...” Without a body it will be complicated to prove, relying on testimonies and forensics. Hence, Gerry goads the PJ to “bring it on!”

Unable to comment on the investigation, they have prompted Granny McCann to volunteer the information that, “the kidnapper must have drugged Madeleine, because she didn’t scream.” That will explain any sedatives detected in the hair by FSS test results, due tomorrow!

These lawyers are good!

Meanwhile, keep stalking other people’s kids while ‘Looking for Madeleine.’

stalking other peoples kids ???

are you serious - I thought this was supposed to be a serious forum - that is just a sick accusation with no basis whatsoever
 
Gran obviously got her information directly from Kate and Gerry, and all of it sounds like excuses for the DNA presence to me.

One child wearing another's clothing would not cause the presences of bodily fluids and hair, and the scent of a cadaver. :rolleyes: So it's basically nonsense.

And I don't think Gran is helping anything by stating that Madeleine "must have been drugged" by a kidnapper. Number one, it makes no sense. Number two, it admits she might have had drugs in her system to make her sleep so well. That will just remind people that the drugs might have come from the parents. :croc:

Also, when Gran says that Madeleine would have "screamed the house down," that just reminds me of the rumors we've had of Kate's diary, which described Madaleine as "hysterical" and unmanageable. So it gives a totally wrong view if Gran was trying to drum up sympathy for the parents.

Because now people will think it's even more plausible that a shrieking child might be given drugs to make her docile enough so the parents could leave her, because they don't want her "screaming" while they are gone. Although, someone in the same building actually did hear Madeleine calling for her Daddy one night. :furious:

I don't think the McCann defense team will look back on Gran's statements as doing them a favor at all.


I completely agree.

Granny also states:
"I really believe they (whoever took her) gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her wakening," she told the Sunday Mirror.
"If she was taken when she was sleeping by somebody she did not know she would have screamed the place down." (snip)

Unfortunately, the twins also slept through not only being carried away by strangers but the commotion that is said to have taken place while frantically searching for Maddie. Will she need to add in future interviews thta they were drugged, too?
 
I completely agree.

Granny also states:
"I really believe they (whoever took her) gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her wakening," she told the Sunday Mirror.
"If she was taken when she was sleeping by somebody she did not know she would have screamed the place down." (snip)

Unfortunately, the twins also slept through not only being carried away by strangers but the commotion that is said to have taken place while frantically searching for Maddie. Will she need to add in future interviews thta they were drugged, too?

yep I am sure that Grannys evidence is pivotal to the whole case - I mean whatever Granny says or doesnt say must be true

you know sometimes I do wonder if I am following the same case
 
Unable to comment on the investigation, they have prompted Granny McCann to volunteer the information that, “the kidnapper must have drugged Madeleine, because she didn’t scream.” That will explain any sedatives detected in the hair by FSS test results, due tomorrow!

I'm not following. I think it takes several days, at least, for drugs to show up in hair. If she was drugged that night, and taken from the apartment (by one person or the other), it wouldn't show a thing. Even if they were lucky enough to get a sample from that short time window.

If she was killed, and the hair fell out in the trunk, I don't think it would show drugs because the hair wouldn't grow because she was dead.
 
Good point, Rino! How does Gran explain the deep sleep of the Twins while Maddie was being abducted? It's not as if she was alone in her bedroom.
 
yep I am sure that Grannys evidence is pivotal to the whole case - I mean whatever Granny says or doesnt say must be true

you know sometimes I do wonder if I am following the same case

Your probably right, in this particular discussion I am trying to follow everything from the McCann media maching and trying to figure out why the inconsistancies and contridictions.

For example here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=2&highlight=Goncalo+Amaral (post 30) Gerry tells us the The twins Sean and Amelie never woke up with the turmoil on the night of the crime, before and after their sister was taken from the apartment, but Gerry McCann guarantees it’s normal and says his children usually sleep without interruptions.....and ....“We usually put them to sleep between 7 and 8 p.m. and they sleep all night without interruptions. It’s a routine we follow in the UK and which we’ve kept here” ...

Fair enough, but in his blog he finds it important to remark to his readers that after one nice day back at home they were put to bed at 7:30 and went right to sleep without incident concluding "they must really love their new beds".

They want it both ways very often and you want to give it to them
 
Your probably right, in this particular discussion I am trying to follow everything from the McCann media maching and trying to figure out why the inconsistancies and contridictions.

For example here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=2&highlight=Goncalo+Amaral (post 30) Gerry tells us the The twins Sean and Amelie never woke up with the turmoil on the night of the crime, before and after their sister was taken from the apartment, but Gerry McCann guarantees it’s normal and says his children usually sleep without interruptions.....and ....“We usually put them to sleep between 7 and 8 p.m. and they sleep all night without interruptions. It’s a routine we follow in the UK and which we’ve kept here” ...

Fair enough, but in his blog he finds it important to remark to his readers that after one nice day back at home they were put to bed at 7:30 and went right to sleep without incident concluding "they must really love their new beds".

They want it both ways very often and you want to give it to them

how is that inconsistent ? Gerry says they twins are sound sleepers and then backs it up in his blog - I dont see anything sinister there

I am still unsure what you mean by they want it both ways - explain please
 
how is that inconsistent ? Gerry says they twins are sound sleepers and then backs it up in his blog - I dont see anything sinister there

I am still unsure what you mean by they want it both ways - explain please
You're right, I remembered incorrectly. Gerry blog, 5/29/07:

It has been very difficult to leave Sean and Amelie but it is only for one nght and we will be back to see them before bedtime tomorrow. Trish and Sandy (Madeleine’s Godparents) who have been with us in Portugal since Day 2 are looking after them and we were surprised to hear they were tucked up in bed by 7.30pm- they must like their new beds!

Why is he surprised to hear his the twins are in bed by 7:30 if he puts them to be between 7:00 and 8:00 as the rule?

Actually you CAN'T answer because as pointed out so often here by those who feel the McCanns are being unfairly targeted, opinons are not facts.

Also, sleeping without interuptions is not the same as sleeping through interuptions.
 
You're right, I remembered incorrectly. Gerry blog, 5/29/07:



Why is he surprised to hear his the twins are in bed by 7:30 if he puts them to be between 7:00 and 8:00 as the rule?

Actually you CAN'T answer because as pointed out so often here by those who feel the McCanns are being unfairly targeted, opinons are not facts.

Also, sleeping without interuptions is not the same as sleeping through interuptions.

yes correct opinions are not facts - but hey everyone has an opinion - nothing wrong with that

I am still not sure what point your trying to make - that Gerry might contradict himself somewhere along the line - People do it all the time anyway - but doesnt mean anything really -

the sleeping thing - I have a 20 month old - when she goes to sleep - she goes - I mean she can sleep through a party / music / thunder the lot . Ever seen a toddler drop off watching TV - when they go they go . its like the sleep of the dead -

This case will solved one way or the other on hard evidence - stuff that is concrete . It is though still interesting to discuss it all - otherwise I wouldnt be here
 
yes correct opinions are not facts - but hey everyone has an opinion - nothing wrong with that

I am still not sure what point your trying to make - that Gerry might contradict himself somewhere along the line - People do it all the time anyway - but doesnt mean anything really -

the sleeping thing - I have a 20 month old - when she goes to sleep - she goes - I mean she can sleep through a party / music / thunder the lot . Ever seen a toddler drop off watching TV - when they go they go . its like the sleep of the dead -

This case will solved one way or the other on hard evidence - stuff that is concrete . It is though still interesting to discuss it all - otherwise I wouldnt be here

But why does Gerry conclude that the twins must like their new beds since they went to sleep easily if that's what they always do, even on vacation in a hotel bed? imo
 
But why does Gerry conclude that the twins must like their new beds since they went to sleep easily if that's what they always do, even on vacation in a hotel bed? imo

it was an off the cuff remark on a blog as the twins were spending a night with the God Parents -

I dont think it means anything sinister or oh look Gerry has slipped up -
 
A great post (IMO) from Strombone (thanks for sharing!) over on the Proboards79 forum.

Posted (with permission).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re. the stories in the UK media in the last two to three weeks and their origin.

IMO, there is really little mystery here. Two words: Clarence Mitchell.

CM is doing his job and doing it very well.

Remember this fact: the McCanns do not have to prove the aduction theory. The PJ, if they are to achieve a conviction for a crime related to the events of May 3rd, have to outline one single theory to the judges and prove it.

It is therefore in the interests of the McCanns that there is no one single theory out there. Whether it's bitter ex-Maids, stairwell lurking strangers, Murat, Malinka, peadophile gangs, single abductors, childless couples, people smugglers, sightings of Madeleine in Spain, Morocco, Las Vegas, and now, "credible leads from psychics" etc. etc. doesn't actually matter.

Whether the theory/sighting is credible or incredible, investigated and ruled out, never investigated at all, or still part of ongoing investigations doesn't actually matter.

Anything, in short, that isn't related to a theory which involves parental involvement in either disappearance or cover-up is grist to the mill of CM's brief. Get it out there, spread it wide, get people talking (and thinking) about the possibilities other than the one they don't want addressed: that the parents, and/or members of the parents party, have some direct role in Madeleine's disappearence.

On that basis, my belief is that CM is selectively, judiciously and systematically providing the UK media with any and all stories that do not relate to parental involvement. My guess is that all these "new" stories re. sightings, stairwells, ex-maids, the nanny, have all been known to the PJ from months ago. They are either ruled out entirely, or investigated to a dead-end, to be overtaken in priority by the thesis of parental involvement, which may have existed prior to late July, but was very much lit large in the sky by the arrival of the two UK dogs.

In doesn't matter that these stories are inconsistent with one another. It doesn't matter that there are great big holes of logic in many of them. By getting these "irrelevant" stories out, CM is muddying the waters to the McCann's benefit, at least in the court of public opinion. UK newspapers now routinely talk about the PJ case against the parents crumbling. UK commentators are now much more likely to castigate the PJ and PT media than question why the UK dogs discovered what they apparently did, or why the parents didn't answer the questions put to them, fled the country and lawyered up.

Additionally, the waters have been muddied further - and will continue to be, I venture - by utilising the Joana C and Casa Pia cases, and the "inadequacies of the investigation" as rationale for holding question marks over the PJ.

You have to hand it to Clarence: he's earning his keep and doing a terrific job in keeping the mob from the McCanns door.

Why do the UK papers, broadsheets and all, routinely refer to the McCanns as "Kate and Gerry"? [One sample at random: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece] Do you think that Ian Huntley - even before proven guilty in a court of law - was afforded this nicety? "

Why do you think Amaral was followed for a week by the Sunday Mirror so that his long lunches and lack of apparent useful activity on the case (by the McCann's terms) can be highlighted in detail? Because CM tipped them off that it would be worthwhile to do so. If sufficient pressure is brought to bear on Amaral that he is invited by his superiors to step aside for the good of the case, then this will dealy and disrupt the investigation, which, so long as it is focused on them and their friends, suits the parents agenda.

The question really is, why are the Sunday Mirror paying an reporter to stalk Amaral for a week, rather than paying someone to speak with each of the Tapas 7 and put some questions to them? Why is Torres getting €3000k for taking a photograph of a blonde haired Moroccan girl? Why is Nanny Pennington with her inconsistent testimonony suddently turning up out of the blue, posing seductively for the camera in her Sunday best?

Remember the months and months of getting no new information on this case other than the few scraps which leaked out of PT and were then speculated upon endlessly by internet forums, including this one? Remember you'd wait weeks for an updated morsel of info about the night of May 3rd? And now look at the flood of apparently new info, stories, theories, leads, sightings. What has changed to cause this? Simple, CM has been appointed, and is setting to his task comprehensively and effectively.

However, as it has been since late July, the key thing in this case is the findings of the UK dogs, in particular the cadaver dog, and the forensic material. Ex-Maids, stairwell-lurkers, Moroccan sightings, none of these are consistent with the possibility raised by the dogs that Madeleine was dead in that apartment on May 3rd.

Ultimately, this case won't be judged in the court of popular opinion, but by three dispassionate, informed judges in PT. If the evidence is sufficient on the charges brought they will convict; if it isn't, they won't.

The questions that remain are: will the case come to court at all? for what specific crime(s) will charges be preferred? If it comes to court, do the PJ have enough evidence (physical & circumstantial) to convict?

If I were to guess right now, I would say that CM's primary motivation is to have the waters sufficiently muddied and the further investigations of the PJ sufficiently hampered so that no charges will ever be brought against the McCanns. And so far, in that respect, he's doing an admirable job. Money well spent.
 
I'm not following. I think it takes several days, at least, for drugs to show up in hair. If she was drugged that night, and taken from the apartment (by one person or the other), it wouldn't show a thing. Even if they were lucky enough to get a sample from that short time window.

If she was killed, and the hair fell out in the trunk, I don't think it would show drugs because the hair wouldn't grow because she was dead.

Hair and fingernails continue to grow after death.
 
A great post (IMO) from Strombone (thanks for sharing!) over on the Proboards79 forum.

Posted (with permission).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re. the stories in the UK media in the last two to three weeks and their origin.

IMO, there is really little mystery here. Two words: Clarence Mitchell.

CM is doing his job and doing it very well.

Remember this fact: the McCanns do not have to prove the aduction theory. The PJ, if they are to achieve a conviction for a crime related to the events of May 3rd, have to outline one single theory to the judges and prove it.

It is therefore in the interests of the McCanns that there is no one single theory out there. Whether it's bitter ex-Maids, stairwell lurking strangers, Murat, Malinka, peadophile gangs, single abductors, childless couples, people smugglers, sightings of Madeleine in Spain, Morocco, Las Vegas, and now, "credible leads from psychics" etc. etc. doesn't actually matter.

Whether the theory/sighting is credible or incredible, investigated and ruled out, never investigated at all, or still part of ongoing investigations doesn't actually matter.

Anything, in short, that isn't related to a theory which involves parental involvement in either disappearance or cover-up is grist to the mill of CM's brief. Get it out there, spread it wide, get people talking (and thinking) about the possibilities other than the one they don't want addressed: that the parents, and/or members of the parents party, have some direct role in Madeleine's disappearence.

On that basis, my belief is that CM is selectively, judiciously and systematically providing the UK media with any and all stories that do not relate to parental involvement. My guess is that all these "new" stories re. sightings, stairwells, ex-maids, the nanny, have all been known to the PJ from months ago. They are either ruled out entirely, or investigated to a dead-end, to be overtaken in priority by the thesis of parental involvement, which may have existed prior to late July, but was very much lit large in the sky by the arrival of the two UK dogs.

In doesn't matter that these stories are inconsistent with one another. It doesn't matter that there are great big holes of logic in many of them. By getting these "irrelevant" stories out, CM is muddying the waters to the McCann's benefit, at least in the court of public opinion. UK newspapers now routinely talk about the PJ case against the parents crumbling. UK commentators are now much more likely to castigate the PJ and PT media than question why the UK dogs discovered what they apparently did, or why the parents didn't answer the questions put to them, fled the country and lawyered up.

Additionally, the waters have been muddied further - and will continue to be, I venture - by utilising the Joana C and Casa Pia cases, and the "inadequacies of the investigation" as rationale for holding question marks over the PJ.

You have to hand it to Clarence: he's earning his keep and doing a terrific job in keeping the mob from the McCanns door.

Why do the UK papers, broadsheets and all, routinely refer to the McCanns as "Kate and Gerry"? [One sample at random: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece] Do you think that Ian Huntley - even before proven guilty in a court of law - was afforded this nicety? "

Why do you think Amaral was followed for a week by the Sunday Mirror so that his long lunches and lack of apparent useful activity on the case (by the McCann's terms) can be highlighted in detail? Because CM tipped them off that it would be worthwhile to do so. If sufficient pressure is brought to bear on Amaral that he is invited by his superiors to step aside for the good of the case, then this will dealy and disrupt the investigation, which, so long as it is focused on them and their friends, suits the parents agenda.

The question really is, why are the Sunday Mirror paying an reporter to stalk Amaral for a week, rather than paying someone to speak with each of the Tapas 7 and put some questions to them? Why is Torres getting €3000k for taking a photograph of a blonde haired Moroccan girl? Why is Nanny Pennington with her inconsistent testimonony suddently turning up out of the blue, posing seductively for the camera in her Sunday best?

Remember the months and months of getting no new information on this case other than the few scraps which leaked out of PT and were then speculated upon endlessly by internet forums, including this one? Remember you'd wait weeks for an updated morsel of info about the night of May 3rd? And now look at the flood of apparently new info, stories, theories, leads, sightings. What has changed to cause this? Simple, CM has been appointed, and is setting to his task comprehensively and effectively.

However, as it has been since late July, the key thing in this case is the findings of the UK dogs, in particular the cadaver dog, and the forensic material. Ex-Maids, stairwell-lurkers, Moroccan sightings, none of these are consistent with the possibility raised by the dogs that Madeleine was dead in that apartment on May 3rd.

Ultimately, this case won't be judged in the court of popular opinion, but by three dispassionate, informed judges in PT. If the evidence is sufficient on the charges brought they will convict; if it isn't, they won't.

The questions that remain are: will the case come to court at all? for what specific crime(s) will charges be preferred? If it comes to court, do the PJ have enough evidence (physical & circumstantial) to convict?

If I were to guess right now, I would say that CM's primary motivation is to have the waters sufficiently muddied and the further investigations of the PJ sufficiently hampered so that no charges will ever be brought against the McCanns. And so far, in that respect, he's doing an admirable job. Money well spent.

GREAT post from Strombone! :clap:
 
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