George Zimmerman's Injuries #1

[jjenny]

Looked at discovery forensics. BZ had 10 blood stains on his gray shirt and 31 stains on his jacket, of which 17 were positive for blood. You would think it would have shown up in the photo especially when large view is seen??

Red doesn't show well on red (or orange).

 

[GrandmaTo4]

I'd like to just smack MOM and ask him to show me the black eyes! Didn't he say GZ had two black eyes. I'd do the same to FT and GZ's family!

bbm

Yes he did. George supposedly saw a Doctor of Osteopathy -- "a branch of medical practice that emphasizes the treatment of medical disorders through the manipulation and massage of the bones, joints, and muscles."

The medical person who saw him was referred to as a "she." The one OD doctor in the office is male -- so GZ may have been seen by one of the female physician assistants.

Many media reports unequivocally state George had a broken nose but NO X-rays were taken. The medical report really stated the nose was *LIKELY* broken, not definitively broken.

I'd like to see how black his eyes were too -- probably no blacker than my eyes when I've been up all day and all night taking care of a sick grandchild.

How could Trayvon have cut and LIKELY-broken George's nose when he did not have cut and/or bruised knuckles himself? He had only one tiny 1/8"-1/4" cut/scratch on his L ring finger below his knuckle

There is not one single photo taken at the Sanford Police Station that depicts Zimmerman's injuries as even a little bit serious -- and certainly NOT life threatening as George and his advocates adamantly claim.

imo, of course

 

[Brendon]

Read the thread.

I think GZ's medical report is largely neutral. Except for....

It is evidence that Martin may have struck GZ from in front. But not very severely. It goes against GZ's saying to the police that TM was on top of him reigning down blows on his face. The cuts to the back of his head do not suggest his head was smashed repeatedly against the concrete. But they point to GZ falling to the ground, at least.

Re swelling and bruising the next day etc. Swelling is caused by blood accumulating under the skin. The next day sweling can happen when there is but one single blow. But when there is multiple blows to the face as claimed by Zimmerman, the swelling would happen very quickly. Think of a boxer after a fight, or a mugshot of someone that had been beaten in a bar-room brawl. Then there are multiple impacts for the blood to pool under the skin.

I don't think either side will have a win there. Unless the prosecution can build a strong case Zimmerman gave an untruthful account to the police and therefore his other testimony is doubted to the jury.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Read the thread.

I think GZ's medical report is largely neutral. Except for....

It is evidence that Martin may have struck GZ from in front. But not very severely. It goes against GZ's saying to the police that TM was on top of him reigning down blows on his face. The cuts to the back of his head do not suggest his head was smashed repeatedly against the concrete. But they point to GZ falling to the ground, at least.

Re swelling and bruising the next day etc. Swelling is caused by blood accumulating under the skin. The next day sweling can happen when there is but one single blow. But when there is multiple blows to the face as claimed by Zimmerman, the swelling would happen very quickly. Think of a boxer after a fight, or a mugshot of someone that had been beaten in a bar-room brawl. Then there are multiple impacts for the blood to pool under the skin.

I don't think either side will have a win there. Unless the prosecution can build a strong case Zimmerman gave an untruthful account to the police and therefore his other testimony is doubted to the jury.

I'd just like to reiterate that we do not, and have not, seen what Mr. Zimmerman has stated. People are wrong. I can point this out factually on both sides.

Brandy Green - Mr. Martin was shot on the porch.
Mr. Taaffe (spelling?) - Looking the WRONG direction in the video, indicating the incident happened on the opposite side of the sidewalk.

Short: Just because the media reports it or someone says it doesn't make it Mr. Zimmerman's words or what really happened.

Also: welcome to the forums

 

[suspicious1]

Read the thread.

I think GZ's medical report is largely neutral. Except for....

It is evidence that Martin may have struck GZ from in front. But not very severely. It goes against GZ's saying to the police that TM was on top of him reigning down blows on his face. The cuts to the back of his head do not suggest his head was smashed repeatedly against the concrete. But they point to GZ falling to the ground, at least.

Re swelling and bruising the next day etc. Swelling is caused by blood accumulating under the skin. The next day sweling can happen when there is but one single blow. But when there is multiple blows to the face as claimed by Zimmerman, the swelling would happen very quickly. Think of a boxer after a fight, or a mugshot of someone that had been beaten in a bar-room brawl. Then there are multiple impacts for the blood to pool under the skin.

I don't think either side will have a win there. Unless the prosecution can build a strong case Zimmerman gave an untruthful account to the police and therefore his other testimony is doubted to the jury.

Hey B, WELCOME!

ITA with what you mean by the bruising showing up right after a fight.

HOwever, I don't believe that GZ ever had his backside on the ground having his head smashed into the ground. Did you see the pics of GZ backside? No grass stains, mudd, water, no nothing. IMO, he was never on his back. So I've been wondering what could've caused the injuries to the back of his head? IMO, GZ may have been pushed up against something while standing up. If him and Trayvon were pushing and shoving, it's possible GZ backed up into something and as Trayvon was pushing him trying to get away as GZ had a hold on him, GZ head was knocked up against something repeatedly. Does that make sense?

I picture GZ struggling to keep hold of Trayvon as he is pushing trying to get loose. I picture Trayvon pulling back and falling with GZ landing on top of him. IMO, that's how they ended up on the ground...but GZ never was on the bottom.

If Trayvon gave GZ such a beating with his "hands" wouldn't you expect to see bruising or something?

JMO and again WELCOME!

 

[GrandmaTo4]

Looked at discovery forensics. BZ had 10 blood stains on his gray shirt and 31 stains on his jacket, of which 17 were positive for blood. You would think it would have shown up in the photo especially when large view is seen??

bbm

Yup. You'd think!

The blood stains could have been minuscule. The jacket blood stains might have been ALL on the back -- dripped from George's insignificant head cuts. Red on red could be difficult to see.

In any case, IF George shot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top of him, I find it very suspicious that there was NOT visible Trayvon blood on the FRONT of George's light gray shirt and red jacket.

And how could the bullet trajectory be straight front to back horizontal when Trayvon was sitting on top of George? George's gun would have to have been raised to the level center of Trayvon's chest and fired while parallel to the ground.

A front to back straight through horizontal trajectory seems much more likely if both GZ and TM were standing.

For George to pull his handgun out of his waistband and holster while Trayvon was sitting on his BELLY and HIPS would have been a feat for an agile CONTORTIONIST!

imo

 

[Brendon]

I'd just like to reiterate that we do not, and have not, seen what Mr. Zimmerman has stated. People are wrong. I can point this out factually on both sides.

Brandy Green - Mr. Martin was shot on the porch.
Mr. Taaffe (spelling?) - Looking the WRONG direction in the video, indicating the incident happened on the opposite side of the sidewalk.

Short: Just because the media reports it or someone says it doesn't make it Mr. Zimmerman's words or what really happened.

Also: welcome to the forums

Thanks AJ. Hi.

I put that in because this is what I read in the New York Times. The NYT was specific with the words it chose. Here is an excerpt:

Some Sanford officers were skeptical from the beginning about certain details of Mr. Zimmerman’s account. For instance, he told the police that Mr. Martin had punched him over and over again, but they questioned whether his injuries were consistent with the number of blows he claimed he received. They also suspected that some of the threatening and dramatic language that Mr. Zimmerman said Mr. Martin uttered during the struggle — like “You are going to die tonight” — sounded contrived.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/u...ed-by-police-missteps.html?_r=1&smid=pl-share

That not good enough?

 

[Etilema]

I'd like to just smack MOM and ask him to show me the black eyes! Didn't he say GZ had two black eyes. I'd do the same to FT and GZ's family!

I think black eyes from a broken nose can take awhile to appear.

 

[Brendon]

Hey B, WELCOME!

ITA with what you mean by the bruising showing up right after a fight.

HOwever, I don't believe that GZ ever had his backside on the ground having his head smashed into the ground. Did you see the pics of GZ backside? No grass stains, mudd, water, no nothing. IMO, he was never on his back. So I've been wondering what could've caused the injuries to the back of his head? IMO, GZ may have been pushed up against something while standing up. If him and Trayvon were pushing and shoving, it's possible GZ backed up into something and as Trayvon was pushing him trying to get away as GZ had a hold on him, GZ head was knocked up against something repeatedly. Does that make sense?

I picture GZ struggling to keep hold of Trayvon as he is pushing trying to get loose. I picture Trayvon pulling back and falling with GZ landing on top of him. IMO, that's how they ended up on the ground...but GZ never was on the bottom.

If Trayvon gave GZ such a beating with his "hands" wouldn't you expect to see bruising or something?

JMO and again WELCOME!

Hi suspicious1,

I believe someone here said it was about 3 hours before they took the full set of photos where his clothes look dry. If it was only wet, he could have dried in that time. Police at different points described his back as being wet with some grass bits. Maybe recently mowed, but not wet enough to have mud stains.

 

[Etilema]

Read the thread.

I think GZ's medical report is largely neutral. Except for....

It is evidence that Martin may have struck GZ from in front. But not very severely. It goes against GZ's saying to the police that TM was on top of him reigning down blows on his face. The cuts to the back of his head do not suggest his head was smashed repeatedly against the concrete. But they point to GZ falling to the ground, at least.

Re swelling and bruising the next day etc. Swelling is caused by blood accumulating under the skin. The next day sweling can happen when there is but one single blow. But when there is multiple blows to the face as claimed by Zimmerman, the swelling would happen very quickly. Think of a boxer after a fight, or a mugshot of someone that had been beaten in a bar-room brawl. Then there are multiple impacts for the blood to pool under the skin.

I don't think either side will have a win there. Unless the prosecution can build a strong case Zimmerman gave an untruthful account to the police and therefore his other testimony is doubted to the jury.

I think that may be a big deal. Because whatever really happened, if GZ's statements don't match the evidence, there is an implication he was lying to cover up something. JMO

 

[AJ Noiter]

Thanks AJ. Hi.

I put that in because this is what I read in the New York Times. The NYT was specific with the words it chose. Here is an excerpt:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/u...ed-by-police-missteps.html?_r=1&smid=pl-share

That not good enough?

It's just as good as Mr. Taffe's report. 2nd hand is 2nd hand no matter who it came from, and in this case I'd actually think it's 3rd hand (Zimmerman -> Investigator -> Media). There has been too many lies regarding this case from both the media and the state's attorneys/etc, for me anyway, to state factually that Mr. Zimmerman did or did not say something.

 

[Brendon]

It's just as good as Mr. Taffe's report. 2nd hand is 2nd hand no matter who it came from, and in this case I'd actually think it's 3rd hand (Zimmerman -> Investigator -> Media). There has been too many lies regarding this case from both the media and the state's attorneys/etc, for me anyway, to state factually that Mr. Zimmerman did or did not say something.

OK, fair enough then. If I don't say so myself, I'm not too bad separating the chaff from the wheat with MSM reports. I noticed that wording in particular, and I don't know that the investigator would lie to the reporter on that. But if that does not pass the test here, then let me say in my opinion I think it will come out as that.

 

[mikeysmommom]

I think that may be a big deal. Because whatever really happened, if GZ's statements don't match the evidence, there is an implication he was lying to cover up something. JMO

IMO Being assaulted to the point of having to take a life would be a very traumatic experience.Maybe TM did say what GZ said he heard because at that point TM thought he was beating the crap out of GZ not realizing he was armed and would shoot to save his own life. I was punched 2 or 3 hits in the face, my eyes looked a little red and puffy but not like I was hit as hard as he had hit me.The next morning Both my eyes looked horrendous,They looked as black as a rotted banana with very dark purple from above my eye brows to mid cheek bones on both sides ringed around the black edges.He had nothing on his hands not a scratch or cut.If I would have called the police and if they had asked me how many punches or what was said as I was being punched I do not think I would have been able to clearly remember, I was to busy trying to protect myself and trying to not get beaten to death.

ETA IMO as long as the actual evidence like bullet trajectory,gun shot residue, etc,the kind of evidence that can not be changed or swayed by others opinions is the only evidence that will matter in the end.IMO

 

[suspicious1]

bbm

Yup. You'd think!

The blood stains could have been minuscule. The jacket blood stains might have been ALL on the back -- dripped from George's insignificant head cuts. Red on red could be difficult to see.

In any case, IF George shot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top of him, I find it very suspicious that there was NOT visible Trayvon blood on the FRONT of George's light gray shirt and red jacket.

And how could the bullet trajectory be straight front to back horizontal when Trayvon was sitting on top of George? George's gun would have to have been raised to the level center of Trayvon's chest and fired while parallel to the ground.

A front to back straight through horizontal trajectory seems much more likely if both GZ and TM were standing.

For George to pull his handgun out of his waistband and holster while Trayvon was sitting on his BELLY and HIPS would have been a feat for an agile CONTORTIONIST!

imo

I agree and especially the part that i bolded. IMO, either both GZ and TM were standing when he shot TM or GZ was standing directly over TM when he shot him meaning TM was lying on the ground.

From the look of GZ clothing from the back, he was never on the bottom of that scuffle which IMO, would mean that he had the upper hand throughout that scuffle on the ground and a chance to "retreat". So why didn't he? Some people base the screaming coming from GZ simply because they think he was the one the bottom of that scuffle. I don't think he was...EVER.

2nd Degree Murder? Yep.

JMO

 

[AJ Noiter]

OK, fair enough then. If I don't say so myself, I'm not too bad separating the chaff from the wheat with MSM reports. I noticed that wording in particular, and I don't know that the investigator would lie to the reporter on that. But if that does not pass the test here, then let me say in my opinion I think it will come out as that.

I understand what you're saying, and that's something I actually don't understand about many of Mr. Martin's supporters. The claim has been made dozens of times that the original investigators messed up this investigation, yet most (if not all) of the "evidence" is from them. They go on to say "we don't believe that Mr. Tracy Martin said he didn't think it was his son" regarding the screams, so another "lie" from the investigators - just one example, but there's many. Here's the part that gets me, if there's a report that "Mr. Zimmerman made many statements that are inconsistent" they openly believe it. "Lies, lies, lies ... except that one detail!" just doesn't make sense to me, but that is my opinion.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Thanks AJ. Hi.

I put that in because this is what I read in the New York Times. The NYT was specific with the words it chose. Here is an excerpt:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/u...ed-by-police-missteps.html?_r=1&smid=pl-share

That not good enough?

I just read over the statement again and I'd have to ask you which police officer stated this. I've read over all of the police officer's statements and I don't recall any of the police stating as such in their reports. I'll look through them again for myself, but the specific usage of the words "Officers" and "Police" tend to make me believe it wasn't a statement given to an Investigator, so we should have access to that statement.

 

[magnolia]

Will you please describe what you think a punch injury to the nose should look like?

Not two scratches down the edge of the nose for one thing.

I don't see any scratches down the side of his nose. I see bruising and broken blood vessels.

 

[wowitsdark]

OK, fair enough then. If I don't say so myself, I'm not too bad separating the chaff from the wheat with MSM reports. I noticed that wording in particular, and I don't know that the investigator would lie to the reporter on that. But if that does not pass the test here, then let me say in my opinion I think it will come out as that.

From my POV, it's not a matter of anyone lying.

But as a story goes from one person to the next, words that have multiple meanings are invariably used, and people hear something and interpret a word to mean something different than the speaker intended.

For instance...

If one person said something happened "after dark"....

The next person, when repeating the story, might say, "It happened in the dark..."

The reality might have been that it happened in a fully-lit area under a street lamp and not *in* a darkly-lit area at all...

People think they hear one thing when the speaker was not intending for their words to take a different turn. It's not that anybody is *lying*... they just mis-interpret a point of emphasis and go with it.

 

[AJ Noiter]

From my POV, it's not a matter of anyone lying.

But as a story goes from one person to the next, words that have multiple meanings are invariably used, and people hear something and interpret a word to mean something different than the speaker intended.

For instance...

If one person said something happened "after dark"....

The next person, when repeating the story, might say, "It happened in the dark..."

The reality might have been that it happened in a fully-lit area under a street lamp and not *in* a darkly-lit area at all...

People think they hear one thing when the speaker was not intending for their words to take a different turn. It's not that anybody is *lying*... they just mis-interpret a point of emphasis and go with it.

O/T Just wanted to point out that the phrase in bold above was used in many police reports - in fact one said "the time was dark" (or something very similar) and I just had to sigh.

 

[LambChop]

I'd just like to reiterate that we do not, and have not, seen what Mr. Zimmerman has stated. People are wrong. I can point this out factually on both sides.

Brandy Green - Mr. Martin was shot on the porch.
Mr. Taaffe (spelling?) - Looking the WRONG direction in the video, indicating the incident happened on the opposite side of the sidewalk.

Short: Just because the media reports it or someone says it doesn't make it Mr. Zimmerman's words or what really happened.

Also: welcome to the forums

BG did not say TM was shot on the porch. She and Tracy Martin were standing at the spot where LE told them TM was shot and she said, he was walking home, that man shot him, would have been on his porch. She was upset so it's not that clear to the listener what she is saying but it obvious she know where TM died and they were not on her back porch at the time of the interview. jmo