GUILTY Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021

[FrostOwl]

RSBM,

The Geneva Conventions don't "stop" anything. Much like having the law "thou shalt not murder" doesn't itself stop people from murdering.

What they do do is allow us the ability to hold perpetrators of these crimes accountable.

Do you think they would have prevented Adolf and his ilk from murdering SIX MILLION innocents in the time period of which you speak?

As the Nazi politicians were after to kill Jews, Roma, and other "undesirables", they would most likely found a way to do it, and make it look legal, even if it would have taken longer. If a person is sentenced to death for a crime, would the Geneva convention stopped the execution? Where all those sentenced to the Soviet Gulag camps criminals, or was the sentences a way to get rid of people who were seen as problems?

 

[Vern]

As the Nazi politicians were after to kill Jews, Roma, and other "undesirables", they would most likely found a way to do it, and make it look legal, even if it would have taken longer. If a person is sentenced to death for a crime, would the Geneva convention stopped the execution? Where all those sentenced to the Soviet Gulag camps criminals, or was the sentences a way to get rid of people who were seen as problems?

Really?? I think we all know what Soviet Gulag camps were all about. They are akin to the Nazi camps.

Why do you think I'm "pro" these things? If I was "pro" these things I sure as heck wouldn't be serving in an Army that exists to protect my country from and to fight against the likes of them and these things!

As for the "where are all those sentenced" bit, how about you head in behind their curtain and bring out all those involved in running them so that "we" (the collective free world) can try them for their crimes?? Please, head in there and round them all up. Or would you prefer "we", NATO etc to head on in there to round them up and try them (that means War on a grand scale - realize that before you choose).

Those are your choices.

Every country has an Army - their own or someone else's.

 

[Niner]

And speaking of NATO - thank goodness they are here - from 12 different countries - protecting us - Latvia!
My parents escaped on a small fishing boat when the Soviet army came thru in October of 1943 - their boat landed in Gotland, Sweden.... thank god!

 

[Vern]

And speaking of NATO - thank goodness they are here - from 12 different countries - protecting us - Latvia!
My parents escaped on a small fishing boat when the Soviet army came thru in October of 1943 - their boat landed in Gotland, Sweden.... thank god!

My son is serving there now and my son-in-law returned here to Canada last March after serving there. Be well. Be safe. Thank you for supporting us!

 

[Niner]

My son is serving there now and my son-in-law returned here to Canada last March after serving there. Be well. Be safe. Thank you for supporting us!

And thank you & your son for serving! I feel "safe" with NATO here - otherwise I don't think I would have moved here! LOL!

 

[fred&edna]

And speaking of NATO - thank goodness they are here - from 12 different countries - protecting us - Latvia!
My parents escaped on a small fishing boat when the Soviet army came thru in October of 1943 - their boat landed in Gotland, Sweden.... thank god!

I've been reading a bit about the history of Latvia - and it's people (due to another case). Amazing and wonderful that your parents escaped in '43. 'Such a war-torn area for years.

* You don't happen to have any Laima chocolate you could send across this way?

 

[Niner]

I've been reading a bit about the history of Latvia - and it's people (due to another case). Amazing and wonderful that your parents escaped in '43. 'Such a war-torn area for years.

* You don't happen to have any Laima chocolate you could send across this way?

Oh but I do!

What other case are you following here re Latvia? Link? TIA!

 

[Charlot123]

The Nazis were behaving more or less civilly in occupied Western Europe, and Poland was the first country where they became unbridled, and horrific crimes of war started en masse. Different country, different ethnicity (Slavs), and Polish Jews, wearing more traditional clothes and headdresses, looked different from the European ones.

Of the Germans, who protested the loudest against the criminal behavior of the Nazi troops? Who disagreed the most?

Older soldiers - and predominantly Catholics.

Same in concentration camps. People who worked in them had the chance to leave - it was understood that not everyone could do the job. In the beginning, they were simply allowed to leave, after 1942, the choice would probably be the Eastern front, so, not much choice for many. But again, which of the capo had to be replaced? Older Germans.

This history has two interesting conclusions to be made. One, younger people are malleable, they can easier absorb good (morality) and bad (criminal behavior), they can be raised with ideology. With older people, not so easy to change their mentality.

Another side, Catholicism is a horribly inconvenient religion for any autocrat, because for a Catholic, the highest moral leadership may often lodge far away from own country.

So of course, this 17-year old girl had the choice to leave the camp, and probably understood what she was doing. At 17, she could easier comply with it, and she probably did the job for the salary and the perks.

Does it justify putting a 95-year old woman through a trial? These things are often political, and the Germans did a lot in terms of de-Nazification, and continue doing it. Today, there is possible concern with the rise of AfD. I personally think she was complicit, but at 95, the best thing is to let her go home.

 

[Charlot123]

The proximity to the neutral Sweden was one reason why this was a success. (And IMO that Sweden saw these Jews as Danes, rather than Jews. But until this in 1943, the Swedish efforts to act like a safe haven for Jews were minimal. En omsvängning som kom – men för sent )

An other Nordic country has an interesting history when it comes to Jews during the WWII, and that's Finland. There were not many Jewish refugees that came to Finland during the war (about 500), but only 8 were sent back to Germany in 1942, and that caused a national scandal, and no more foreign Jews were sent back.
As for Finnish Jewish citizens, they were protected during the war, and Nazi Germany was aware of that. The read about Finnish Jews during WWII is interesting. Those 22 Finnish Jews mentioned to have been murdered in the Holocaust, they all died fighting for the Finnish army.
History of the Jews in Finland - Wikipedia

Well, Finland was the member of the Axis, but not an eager one. Mannerheim’s situation was not easy, what with the Soviet-Finnish war and annexation of part of Karelia, and the defense union with Sweden falling through. I think he really had little choice, but all Finland did was take back the annexed part of Karelia. What you post about the Jews only emphasizes the unusual stance of Finland during WWII.

 

[Cryptic]

I think he really had little choice, but all Finland did was take back the annexed part of Karelia.

They took back a little more than that.

Finland was also interested in annexing Russian / Soviet Karelia into Finland as well and occupied those areas.

But, to Finnish credit, they never adopted Nazi ideology. Finnish units helped to blockade Leningrad as it contained hundreds of thousands of resisting Soviet troops.

The Finns, however, refused German pressure to bombard civilian targets in Leningrad and Finnish interception of food convoys on lake Lagoda were very half hearted.

As a side note, Finnish super star General Mannerheim had served in the Russian imperial army and spoke Russian better than he spoke Finnish. Through out the war, he viewed the Russian people as people.

 

[fred&edna]

Oh but I do!

What other case are you following here re Latvia? Link? TIA!

The link is below. The case is rather murky and occurred in the US in 1981, however, the victims escaped Latvia in the 40s. But, because of my love of history I found myself off on a tangent attempting to learn more about the country (unrelated to the case). While I know the overall picture of how things were during WWII, years ago I realized that there was so much more I didn't know about the many people, countries, cultures, etc of Europe during that time period. I'm always trying to learn more. In my quests for info, I often fear asking questions... I never want to offend.

NV - NV - Jack & Xenia Rabinowitsh, 72, professional hit, Las Vegas, 25 June 1981

*Don't send the chocolates just yet, I might want to add a Latvian knitted scarf

 

[Charlot123]

They took back a little more than that.

Finland was also interested in annexing Russian / Soviet Karelia into Finland as well and occupied those areas.

But, to Finnish credit, they never adopted Nazi ideology. Finnish units helped to blockade Leningrad as it contained hundreds of thousands of resisting Soviet troops.

The Finns, however, refused German pressure to bombard civilian targets in Leningrad and Finnish interception of food convoys on lake Lagoda were very half hearted.

As a side note, Finnish super star General Mannerheim had served in the Russian imperial army and spoke Russian better than he spoke Finnish. Through out the war, he viewed the Russian people as people.

I read his memoirs. He said to Hitler, “Petersburg is dear to the heart of every Finn”. He used to be a brilliant Russian Imperial army officer. His wife was Russian. (But the relationship between Imperial Russia and the Duchy of Finland was very complicated, maybe resembling that between England and Scotland of today, and very different from the way the Empire treated its Poles, for example; there was no Russification in Finland, it explains a lot).

For Mannerheim, the line was between “the Russians” and “the Bolsheviks”, and for Hitler, between the “master race” and the rest. According to his definition, Mannerheim, ethnically a Swede (from Swedish barons settled in Finland), was definitely the top. Hence, he was allowed to behave the way he wanted during their meeting.

From what I understand, Finland merely took back what was annexed during the Soviet-Finnish war, and after the war, it was taken back by the SU. 11% of Finnish territory.

 

[Cryptic]

I read his memoirs. He said to Hitler, “Petersburg is dear to the heart of every Finn”. He used to be a brilliant Russian Imperial army officer. His wife was Russian. (But the relationship between Imperial Russia and the Duchy of Finland was very complicated, maybe resembling that between England and Scotland of today,

From what I understand, Finland merely took back what was annexed during the Soviet-Finnish war, and after the war, it was taken back by the SU. 11% of Finnish territory.

I like the Mannerheim quote and was unaware that his wife was Russian.

Finland took back both the annexed areas lost in the Winter War and then annexed a good amount of Russian eastern Karelia.
Finnish military administration in Eastern Karelia | Wikiwand
Aunus expedition - Wikipedia (earlier annexation effort)

Private Finnish militias from Finland proper had tried to annex eastern Karelia during the Russian civil war, but were turned back a lack of numbers, communist strength and...... luke warm attitudes from Finnic eastern Karelians.

Though Finns and eastern Karelians are closely related, eastern Karelians are eastern Orthodox and have more eastern cultural outlook. They also had long memories of a war with Protestant Sweden that led to a lot of destruction of Eastern Orthodox shrines, monasteries etc. Western Finns had served in Swedish armies.

Though not hostile to Finnish occupation / annexation per se in WWII, there was little enthusiasm for it. As a side note, Mannerheim had to relieve a Finnish Lutheran chaplain whose sermons had gotten more than a little critical of Orthodox religious practices and were alienating locals.

 

[FrostOwl]

I read his memoirs. He said to Hitler, “Petersburg is dear to the heart of every Finn”. He used to be a brilliant Russian Imperial army officer. His wife was Russian. (But the relationship between Imperial Russia and the Duchy of Finland was very complicated, maybe resembling that between England and Scotland of today, and very different from the way the Empire treated its Poles, for example; there was no Russification in Finland, it explains a lot).

For Mannerheim, the line was between “the Russians” and “the Bolsheviks”, and for Hitler, between the “master race” and the rest. According to his definition, Mannerheim, ethnically a Swede (from Swedish barons settled in Finland), was definitely the top. Hence, he was allowed to behave the way he wanted during their meeting.

From what I understand, Finland merely took back what was annexed during the Soviet-Finnish war, and after the war, it was taken back by the SU. 11% of Finnish territory.

I like the Mannerheim quote and was unaware that his wife was Russian.

Finland took back both the annexed areas lost in the Winter War and then annexed a good amount of Russian eastern Karelia.
Finnish military administration in Eastern Karelia | Wikiwand
Aunus expedition - Wikipedia (earlier annexation effort)

Private Finnish militias from Finland proper had tried to annex eastern Karelia during the Russian civil war, but were turned back a lack of numbers, communist strength and...... luke warm attitudes from Finnic eastern Karelians.

Though Finns and eastern Karelians are closely related, eastern Karelians are eastern Orthodox and have more eastern cultural outlook. They also had long memories of a war with Protestant Sweden that led to a lot of destruction of Eastern Orthodox shrines, monasteries etc. Western Finns had served in Swedish armies.

Though not hostile to Finnish occupation / annexation per se in WWII, there was little enthusiasm for it. As a side note, Mannerheim had to relieve a Finnish Lutheran chaplain whose sermons had gotten more than a little critical of Orthodox religious practices and were alienating locals.

A little OT.
As for the Russification of Finland, both czar Alexander I and Alexander II confirmed the right of Finland as a own Grand Duchy as a part of Russia, and allowed it to pursue its own customs and so on. It was first with Nicolas II that the russification attempts began in 1899, and that led to the assassination of governal-general Nikolay Bobrikov in 1904. At the beginning of the 20th century Russia had many other problems to tackle, and the russification process didn't succeed before the Russian revolution ended the tsarist rule in Finland. Russification of Finland - Wikipedia

As for Orthodox Russians/Finns, my mother was born in the Karelian isthmus, and in her home parish there were three Orthodox villages, and the people in those fled with the rest of the people in the isthmus in 1940.

 

[FrostOwl]

Maybe a reason why it still might be a reason to prosecute those who aided the Nazi in some capacity, even if the aid was little:
Polish court tells two Holocaust historians to apologise
Holocaust law wields a 'blunt instrument' against Poland's past

Not everyone wants to remember, and accept, that there were those who had aided the Nazi.

 

[Charlot123]

A little OT.
As for the Russification of Finland, both czar Alexander I and Alexander II confirmed the right of Finland as a own Grand Duchy as a part of Russia, and allowed it to pursue its own customs and so on. It was first with Nicolas II that the russification attempts began in 1899, and that led to the assassination of governal-general Nikolay Bobrikov in 1904. At the beginning of the 20th century Russia had many other problems to tackle, and the russification process didn't succeed before the Russian revolution ended the tsarist rule in Finland. Russification of Finland - Wikipedia

As for Orthodox Russians/Finns, my mother was born in the Karelian isthmus, and in her home parish there were three Orthodox villages, and the people in those fled with the rest of the people in the isthmus in 1940.

Thank you. I never read about Nicholas II’s attempts, sorry, but that it had to be him, is unsurprising.

Karelia’s history is pretty dramatic, if not to say, tragic.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Woman, 96, to stand trial for allegedly helping in WWII massacre

Irmgard Dirksen who lives in a nursing home in Pinneberg in the Schleswig Holstein region, will be tried in the Itzehoe District Court in Schleswig-Holstein before a juvenile chamber, as she was a teenager at the time.

The trial of Irmgard Dirksen is expected to be one of the last times that a perpetrator will be out in trial for Holocaust crimes.

Only a few concentration camp guards and possible helpers of the Holocaust are still alive, others can no longer be questioned because of their old age.

 

[JerseyGirl]

German court sets trial date for former Nazi guard, aged 100

A spokeswoman for the Neuruppin state court said Monday that the trial is set to begin in early October. The centenarian’s name wasn’t released in line with German privacy laws.

The suspect is alleged to have worked at the Sachsenhausen camp between 1942 and 1945 as an enlisted member of the Nazi Party’s paramilitary wing.

Authorities say that despite his advanced age, the suspect is considered fit enough to stand trial, though the number of hours per day the court is in session may have to be limited.

 

[Niner]

German court sets trial date for former Nazi guard, aged 100

A spokeswoman for the Neuruppin state court said Monday that the trial is set to begin in early October. The centenarian’s name wasn’t released in line with German privacy laws.

The suspect is alleged to have worked at the Sachsenhausen camp between 1942 and 1945 as an enlisted member of the Nazi Party’s paramilitary wing.

Authorities say that despite his advanced age, the suspect is considered fit enough to stand trial, though the number of hours per day the court is in session may have to be limited.

Here's the info on the woman for this thread from above article:


In a different case, a 96-year-old woman will go on trial in late September in the northern German town of Itzehoe. The woman, who allegedly worked during the war as the secretary for the SS commandant of the Stutthof concentration camp, has been charged with over 10,000 counts of accessory to murder earlier this year.

Her case and the charges against the 100-year-old suspect both rely on recent legal precedent in Germany establishing that anyone who helped a Nazi camp function can be prosecuted for accessory to the murders committed there.

 

[Cryptic]

German court sets trial date for former Nazi guard, aged 100

The suspect is alleged to have worked at the Sachsenhausen camp between 1942 and 1945 as an enlisted member of the Nazi Party’s paramilitary wing.

I wish they gave more information as to how the defendant came to be a concentration camp guard.

Though it is clearly possible for the defendant to have been an SS guard, I have never heard the SS described as a "paramilitary organization". The individual would have been 21 years old in 1942 and thus too old to have been a Hitler Youth volunteer.

Likewise, he was too young to have been a part of the Brown Shirt- SS rivalry where some deposed Brown Shirts were assigned to concentration camps as flunky guards.

There is a chance that he is not German. The Nazi's sponsored a variety of paramilitary groups in eastern Europe and assigned a good many such recruits to holocaust flunky roles as either guards or supporting rear area security units. After the war some fled to the USA. Other, however, remained in Germany.