Glimpses into Casey's Frame of Mind During Solitude *REVISITED*

[Roze]

The word love obscuring the face of the girl reminded me instantly of the heart sticker that Casey placed over Caylee's mouth.

Also the darkness obscuring the face (and thus personality/individuality) of the girl also reminded me of the duct tape.

I think Casey used the duct tape to kill Caylee but also as a means of "blotting her out". Covering the face of the victim is almost always a sign that the killer knew the victim and was close to them and had rage towards that person. I think Casey hadn't ever really wanted Caylee to exist in the first place so the duct tape played out as a way of erasing her - literally and figuratively. As for the heart sticker, there is some seriously deep psychological stuff going on in Casey's mind with that sticker! Almost like after she robbed Caylee of her identity by covering her with duct tape, she is reducing the reality of mothering Caylee to a cartoony final statement...like putting a stamp on a letter, it was like a finishing touch before she sealed her up and "sent her away", hopefully never to bother Casey again.

I'm having a hard time totally putting these thoughts into words but I hope you can see what I'm getting at...

This picture is almost an artistic representation of what Casey had done. She must have had a deep response of recognition when she saw this picture.

Good observations NocturnalLady.

 

[Roze]

That last critical quote is very apt in this context. Also I think it's possible that Casey was being haunted by her own apparitions of Caylee. Caylee's face looking at her...hence the nightmares at Tony's? I think that Casey would have responded to this picture for exactly the reasons the critic pointed out. The woman (isn't it Salome?) uses her upraised arm to simultaneously hail her achievement and bring attention to it while also pushing it away and distancing herself from it.

I saw a great operatic production of the story of Salome and John the Baptist that was based on Oscar Wilde's version of the story. His version is that Salome fell in love with him because of his beauty but was rejected because John the Baptist can love no one but God and scorns the sexual love of a woman. As revenge Salome has her father execute him and bring him John's head on a plate. She dances the dance of the seven veils to glory in her revenge. In this dance she slowly disrobes until she is naked and then kisses John's severed head. Oscar Wilde's version of the tale emphasizes the dark and twisted nature of both Salome and John the Baptists idea of love. It was a really moving opera!

Salome is also considered one of histories greatest sort of evil seductresses. This particular painting is featured on the Wikipedia page about Salome so I wonder if Casey ran across it that way??

More interesting observations. Thanks. I would like to add this quote for your consideration:

Moreau's figures are ambiguous; it is hardly possible to distinguish at the first glance which of two lovers is the man, which the woman; all his characters are linked by subtle bonds of relationship... lovers look as though they were related, brothers as though they were lovers, men have the faces of virgins, virgins the faces of youths; the symbols of Good and Evil are entwined and equivocally confused.​

I found this description of the image interesting given the claims of incest by KC, the claims of virginity yet being pregnant ("you'd have to have sex to be pregnant), the reference to the sexual ambiguity (ex-beaus saying she was like a man after intimacy) and the symbols of good and evil being confused.

I don't believe Casey knew why she was attracted to the image on a conscious level... but it's easy to see why she might be on a subconscious level.

 

[NocturnalLady]

More interesting observations. Thanks. I would like to add this quote for your consideration:

Moreau's figures are ambiguous; it is hardly possible to distinguish at the first glance which of two lovers is the man, which the woman; all his characters are linked by subtle bonds of relationship... lovers look as though they were related, brothers as though they were lovers, men have the faces of virgins, virgins the faces of youths; the symbols of Good and Evil are entwined and equivocally confused.​

I found this description of the image interesting given the claims of incest by KC, the claims of virginity yet being pregnant ("you'd have to have sex to be pregnant), the reference to the sexual ambiguity (ex-beaus saying she was like a man after intimacy) and the symbols of good and evil being confused.

I don't believe Casey knew why she was attracted to the image on a conscious level... but it's easy to see why she might be on a subconscious level.

Those are really good points too Roze.

In Wilde's version of the story all the expected gender roles have been turned upside down. It is the woman who falls in love with the beautiful man. It is the man who is rejecting because he wants to retain his virginity and physical purity. It is the woman who commands the agression and violence. It is the woman who expresses herself in an overtly sexual way.

I can see many reasons why Casey would see something of herself in Salome.

I remember being so struck by John's rejection of Salome in the opera I saw. It was so totally cruel. The audience expects to see John the Baptist as a sympathetic person, the total victim & a saint. But in this version he was a fanatic who invited death to prove the purity of his love for God. The theme of posession was very strong. Who would win in the tug of war for love? If John the Baptist had only given her a crumb of understanding or compassion Salome would have been fulfilled. In the end the only way for her to posess him was to kill him.

I doubt Casey really knew the story that well but there would have been many shades of the drama which played out in her own life that would have appealed to her. The tug of war for Caylee's love between Casey and Cindy. The total rejection Casey probably felt from both Cindy and then Caylee. The final act of murder as vengence for that rejection. The act of murder as a way of claiming total posession.

You could really get into that story and find all kinds of allegory there!

 

[Harmony 2]

My grandfather and uncle used to have a football rivalry with their favorite teams. When these teams were playing against each other they would call and tease each other. When my grandfather died my uncle placed a pin on my grandfather’s suit lapel of his favorite team. Then when my mother died my daughter placed a baby doll blanket they had sewn together in her casket. My son placed a poem he had written about her in there since it had meant so much to her. The point I am trying to get at is that when someone dies we reflect on the special endearing moments we shared with them or about that special trinket or item that represents who they were in life.

It has always bothered me that Caylee’s 'Mama' doll sat stained and discarded in the back seat of Casey’s car. I can’t even fathom what lies in the cold recesses of Casey’s mind but in that moment of solitude, when she was choosing what went in the trash bags before disposal, it is evident that there was no reflection on the endearing qualities of a sweet baby girl.

 

[affinity]

Inmate Anthony lives in a delusional fantasyland, is she that mentally screwed up that reality doesn't exist??? I do believe CA emotionally and mentally crippled Inmate Anthony. If she didn't like living under her mothers rule why didn't she get a full time job, put Caylee in daycare, get her own apartment and be her own woman? She is not unique in that aspect, there are many single woman raising children alone, yet they manage to juggle a full time job and being a parent. Again, it's about priorities. I did it when I was a single mom with 2 children at 22...it can be done, it depends on how badly you want independance and how much your children mean to you...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

Because she didn't have a high school diploma, but conversely felt working at Taco Bell (or comparable) was "beneath" her. (Where were her parents to make her finish school!?)

 

[seagull65]

That last critical quote is very apt in this context. Also I think it's possible that Casey was being haunted by her own apparitions of Caylee. Caylee's face looking at her...hence the nightmares at Tony's?

snipped by me,

who knows if she was having nightmares or what exactly about. Tony says she was having nightmares or was having some kind of night sweats, and he says she mentioned a nightmare about their relationship. Maybe her night sweats were because she was beginning to realize the gravity of the situation with Caylee being missing and that she might have made a very big mistake in not calling police, and didn't know what to do now. He also says she was crying watching her video of Caylee. Interesting how she was doing this right in front of him, i.e. not a secret from him or anything.......
Maybe it wasn't even nightmares but some of her seizures in her sleep or other medical thing. The night sweats are interesting and her crying over the Caylee video (not hiding this from him in any way) are interesting to me. Thanks for the Salome (opera Salome) info!

 

[Harmony 2]

snipped by me,

who knows if she was having nightmares or what exactly about. Tony says she was having nightmares or was having some kind of night sweats, and he says she mentioned a nightmare about their relationship. Maybe her night sweats were because she was beginning to realize the gravity of the situation with Caylee being missing and that she might have made a very big mistake in not calling police, and didn't know what to do now. He also says she was crying watching her video of Caylee. Interesting how she was doing this right in front of him, i.e. not a secret from him or anything.......
Maybe it wasn't even nightmares but some of her seizures in her sleep or other medical thing. The night sweats are interesting and her crying over the Caylee video (not hiding this from him in any way) are interesting to me. Thanks for the Salome (opera Salome) info!

SG- I always thought he came upon her and discovered her crying while watching the videos. I do not recall her doing this openly in front of him but more that he caught her off guard. I think I linked it along with the page number. I will have to go back and reread that section.

 

[seagull65]

It has always bothered me that Caylee’s 'Mama' doll sat stained and discarded in the back seat of Casey’s car. I can’t even fathom what lies in the cold recesses of Casey’s mind but in that moment of solitude, when she was choosing what went in the trash bags before disposal, it is evident that there was no reflection on the endearing qualities of a sweet baby girl.

I know what you mean and thank you for that nice post.

I was always struck about the doll, too, but in a different way. This was one of the things that made me think the person who disposed of Caylee, the person who was choosing what went in the bags before disposal as you say, as you say was not reflecting on Caylee in any personal way-- this is one of the indicators to me that the perp or whoever was disposing of Caylee probably was not someone who was personally involved with Caylee, not Casey or Cindy for example. I think if Casey had been the one disposing of Caylee she would most likely have placed her momma doll with her (and would have disposed of her body differently, a much "nicer" disposal, no tape left on the face certainly, etc. I would think to Casey it would be important to save face and try to paint a much more innocent picture if she were the murderer (or even if a paramour or friend had harmed Caylee or Casey thought that was who had done it, I think if Casey had found Caylee soon after she would have removed the tape and tried to make things look as innocent as possible in order to save face with her mother, i.e. I didn't expose Caylee to someone dangerous.) I also don't think there's any way Casey would drive around with Caylee's body decomposing in her car unless she didn't know it was there. I think she would put Caylee's doll with her, arrange her prettily, and also, why keep the doll in the car? And if placing so many other items from her home with Caylee, why not also the doll? etc.

 

[tsitra01]

Its been very interesting to watch KC since her arrest. Her weeping eye poking, then
inspecting her finger tips is disgusting considering she was in good spirits while
driving around with Caylee's decomposing body in her trunk. She did'nt look sad
during her shopping trips. Fun at the club. Oh and her less than attractive tattoo.

Cindy has changed her demeanor also. IMO she is in her pity me mode. No more
rude remarks, wild excuses, lies to appease KC. Its the more meek hands in prayer mode
for all those jurist out there. She may even get back to remembering Caylee for
public pity. IMO

 

[seagull65]

SG- I always thought he came upon her and discovered her crying while watching the videos. I do not recall her doing this openly in front of him but more that he caught her off guard. I think I linked it along with the page number. I will have to go back and reread that section.

I thought he said they were in bed, she was sitting on the end of his bed. As far as I can remember at this point! Seemed like he said IIRC that he woke up and she would be sitting up awake, crying over the Caylee video. Whatever the case, I got the impression her crying over the video of Caylee was no secret, just the opposite, I had the impression she was trying to appeal to him in some way, for comfort or something. IIRC the detective then asked , "Was it real crying or just fussing with her hair and acting like crying" and I thought TL claimed it was fake crying. But it's been a long time since I read or heard that part, too.

 

[Pensfan]

It has always bothered me that Caylee’s 'Mama' doll sat stained and discarded in the back seat of Casey’s car. I can’t even fathom what lies in the cold recesses of Casey’s mind but in that moment of solitude, when she was choosing what went in the trash bags before disposal, it is evident that there was no reflection on the endearing qualities of a sweet baby girl.

Respectfully snipped.
It also greatly upset me to read that Caylee’s‘ favorite doll named Mama was tested and it had urine on it. Upon dying, the body no longer has sphincter control and bladder/bowel contents are released. Caylee was probably holding her little mama doll while dying. I hope Caylee's mama doll gave her some comfort when her biological mama was murdering her. Justice for Caylee!

 

[suzihawk]

Respectfully snipped.
It also greatly upset me to read that Caylee’s‘ favorite doll named Mama was tested and it had urine on it. Upon dying, the body no longer has sphincter control and bladder/bowel contents are released. Caylee was probably holding her little mama doll while dying. I hope Caylee's mama doll gave her some comfort when her biological mama was murdering her. Justice for Caylee!

It just rips my heart out to read that.

 

[Pensfan]

SG- I always thought he came upon her and discovered her crying while watching the videos. I do not recall her doing this openly in front of him but more that he caught her off guard. I think I linked it along with the page number. I will have to go back and reread that section.

I always thought this was BS or confusion on TL's part. TL stated that KC only brought clothing items to his apartment. KC is a human parasite and was there to attach herself to her new host (TL) so she could benefit at his expense. I really doubt she brought a video of "snot nose at the smelly nursing home" to her new lover's apartment. She was without close friends, job, money, and a roof over her head. She desperately needed a new parasitic host and therefore, would only have participated in activities that met her goal of becoming TL's live-in girlfriend. She considered herself to be an invisible, irresistible seductress as evidenced by her downloading the painting of Salome. Irresistible seductresses that are seeking a new parasitic host would not watch a video of a "snot nose" at the potential new victim's home.

 

[Curious Me]

That last critical quote is very apt in this context. Also I think it's possible that Casey was being haunted by her own apparitions of Caylee. Caylee's face looking at her...hence the nightmares at Tony's? I think that Casey would have responded to this picture for exactly the reasons the critic pointed out. The woman (isn't it Salome?) uses her upraised arm to simultaneously hail her achievement and bring attention to it while also pushing it away and distancing herself from it.

I saw a great operatic production of the story of Salome and John the Baptist that was based on Oscar Wilde's version of the story. His version is that Salome fell in love with him because of his beauty but was rejected because John the Baptist can love no one but God and scorns the sexual love of a woman. As revenge Salome has her father execute him and bring him John's head on a plate. She dances the dance of the seven veils to glory in her revenge. In this dance she slowly disrobes until she is naked and then kisses John's severed head. Oscar Wilde's version of the tale emphasizes the dark and twisted nature of both Salome and John the Baptists idea of love. It was a really moving opera!

Salome is also considered one of histories greatest sort of evil seductresses. This particular painting is featured on the Wikipedia page about Salome so I wonder if Casey ran across it that way??

BBM

Pensfan brought this up intially, and I've been pondering this painting now for days. I couldn't see Casey knowing the whole intricate philosophy of Salome. It was how Casey was feeling. She was drawn to this painting, but not knowing why. It spoke of how she felt. Really says alot more than the other garbage she was posting.

 

[seagull65]

The word love obscuring the face of the girl reminded me instantly of the heart sticker that Casey placed over Caylee's mouth.

Also the darkness obscuring the face (and thus personality/individuality) of the girl also reminded me of the duct tape. .

I know what you mean, and you describe it so well....although the girl whose face is obscured is a figure similar to Casey not Caylee, it's a standing adult figure... (If I'm thinking of the same picture you mean). It still looks so much (with that pigeon toed way of standing) like Casey I can't believe it was just a picture she found but apparently it was as far as we've heard. I was always interested in that picture too because it just looked so much like Casey and either the backyard garden area or even the remains site.

I think Casey used the duct tape to kill Caylee but also as a means of "blotting her out". Covering the face of the victim is almost always a sign that the killer knew the victim and was close to them and had rage towards that person. .

I have heard that when they find a body with a blanket or something like that spread over to cover the face it's often considered to be an indicator that the perp may have known the victim. And if you saw a body with lots of injuries to the face I would think this was an attacker with a lot of rage, stranger or not. But as far as duct tape on the face, of course we still don't know exactly where the tape was placed other than over the mouth area, but I think it's fairly common for stranger/predators to duct tape the victim's face, isn't it? One of our members here said when she was raped the perp duct taped her mouth and eyes. It seems like I've heard of it in cases quite a bit. For example, that predator who was attempting to abduct other little girls in Orlando during this time frame also taped their mouths with duct tape, IIRC.
I haven't seen any evidence indicating Casey had rage toward Caylee by the way, or anyone else who did. I think violent perps like sexual predators often engage in a certain amount of overkill, rage problems for sure, but not because they know the victim.

I think Casey hadn't ever really wanted Caylee to exist in the first place so the duct tape played out as a way of erasing her - literally and figuratively. As for the heart sticker, there is some seriously deep psychological stuff going on in Casey's mind with that sticker! Almost like after she robbed Caylee of her identity by covering her with duct tape, she is reducing the reality of mothering Caylee to a cartoony final statement...like putting a stamp on a letter, it was like a finishing touch before she sealed her up and "sent her away", hopefully never to bother Casey again.

I'm having a hard time totally putting these thoughts into words but I hope you can see what I'm getting at...

This picture is almost an artistic representation of what Casey had done. She must have had a deep response of recognition when she saw this picture.

Of course we don't know if Casey was the one who taped or killed Caylee, it's pure speculation. It's almost become a mantra in the public/media coverage of this case that Casey supposedly never wanted Caylee, but there isn't any evidence so far to support this. For example, when Casey first realized as a teenager that she was pregnant and didn't know what to do, in the first day or two, another teenage girl Kio asked if she could adopt the baby, Casey thanked her for wanting to do that but politely turned her down. All the people who knew Casey and Caylee say Casey was very attached to Caylee and vice versa, every witness says Casey was loving and a good mother toward Caylee, etc.

 

[sharpar]

They all said things that proved not to be true once KC lies were exposed. They would have said KC had a job and a nanny too.

 

[seagull65]

I always thought this was BS or confusion on TL's part. TL stated that KC only brought clothing items to his apartment. KC is a human parasite and was there to attach herself to her new host (TL) so she could benefit at his expense. I really doubt she brought a video of "snot nose at the smelly nursing home" to her new lover's apartment. She was without close friends, job, money, and a roof over her head. She desperately needed a new parasitic host and therefore, would only have participated in activities that met her goal of becoming TL's live-in girlfriend. She considered herself to be an invisible, irresistible seductress as evidenced by her downloading the painting of Salome. Irresistible seductresses that are seeking a new parasitic host would not watch a video of a "snot nose" at the potential new victim's home.

But she brought Caylee herself to his home. At least he says she watched the video of Caylee at his place, too, and was crying, we only have his word for it.
Trying to attach herself to Tony L to benefit at his expense? In what way?!! LOL She was the one bringing food to his house and feeding him, working for him free at his promotions, too. When she ran out of gas he broke the lock on her father's shed to get gas rather than putting a few dollars worth of gas in her tank himself! The only thing she ever got from TL was a slice of cheesecake and him and his friends teasing her in a mean way. Why she hung around there for any time at all is beyond me, maybe enamored with the idea of getting into event promotions or enjoyed the contact with his friends who were in bands etc? Or something else entirely? She wasn't staying there for any kind of gain that we know of. She'd always been able to go back to her parents' house before, and had been staying at JP/RM/AH's place shortly before, even after breaking up with RM I guess, so the fact she didn't go back to either of those places during this time frame is curious. For some reason she could stay at TL's.
The only time the term "snot nose" was ever used that we know of was when Casey was letting Tony R know she wasn't coming over to his place. This term appeared to be used jokingly like "rug rat" or "ankle biter", maybe there had been discussion of Caylee having a runny nose for all I know (like when she was talking to Amy about Caylee having a cold) (kids of that age have runny noses so much!). I don't like the term myself at all, some families use terms like this all the time, Casey's mom also said on Caylee's birthday video, "Your butt is going in a bath" or something like that, I don't use terminology like that but lots of families do, maybe Tony R used this term, we don't know. Friends of Casey's said they'd never heard the nickname "snot nose" used by Casey, only "munchkin".

I'm not sure if Casey saw herself as a great seductress... we know she HATED doing the "hot body" contest dance, for example. Tony or his promotions group were trying to get her to do it (just because they had to have someone), she said in the texts or emails that she would NEVER do it again, witnesses said she had to drink shots to be able to do it, etc. It sounds from all the texts and communications with Amy that Casey had a healthy interest in boys, enjoyed meeting boys, enjoyed sex, but I don't know if she saw herself as a great seductress. Who knows, maybe.

the element of the decapitated head in Salome, that is interesting, just like the skulls and so on.

 

[quadlatte]

KC is the Nanny. That is why it is so easy to forgive the nanny. KC puts all the responsibility off on the nanny. Nanny was teaching her a lesson. So what was the lesson???

ITA, and further, I think that KC and CA are BOTH the Nanny...

Actually, I think in KC's mind, all 3 CMAs are "the same little person"...:waitasec::furious:

 

[seagull65]

I always thought the text with Iassen was interesting, my first impression the first time I read it early on, was that she was joking with him because he was the one watching Caylee, i.e., I definitely trust you, or else that it was someone known to both of them. It seemed tongue in cheek. But the fact that later we heard these different number references to different people, it's someone I've known for 4 years, six years, 2 years, whatever, weird. Either referring to different people or her mind is just all over the place. Certainly not any kind of strategic lies or else she'd stick with one. I find this kind of blurring/delirious sounding quality in a lot of things she says, like she's not all there.

 

[LambChop]

I always thought the text with Iassen was interesting, my first impression the first time I read it early on, was that she was joking with him because he was the one watching Caylee, i.e., I definitely trust you, or else that it was someone known to both of them. It seemed tongue in cheek. But the fact that later we heard these different number references to different people, it's someone I've known for 4 years, six years, 2 years, whatever, weird. Either referring to different people or her mind is just all over the place. Certainly not any kind of strategic lies or else she'd stick with one. I find this kind of blurring/delirious sounding quality in a lot of things she says, like she's not all there.

The truth is always easier to remember.