Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

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I agree, seems so unnecessary to kill the dog. I guess we have to be thankful he didn’t decide to kill the baby as well.

As aside, I’m still :eek: that Lydia didn’t fall off the bed. A crawling 11 month old is like lightning! Did he do most of the staging and taping himself up then put her there at the last minute? Or did he not care if she tumbled off and got hurt?

I think she was put on the bed last minute after he'd done staging the scene around the house. I also don't think he cared if she got hurt, if it happened it happened, in his mind a justifiable risk to set his scene
 
agreed.

Older men don’t fall for young girls because they’re “mature for their age” or whatever BS they say: it’s always because they’re easier to control and manipulate. Imagine being nearly 30 and having a single thing in common with a 15 year old girl!

Statistically, the single most dangerous time for a woman experiencing domestic abuse of any kind is during pregnancy and when the baby is young. It’s why, in the UK at least, expectant mothers are now asked privately if they are experiencing any abuse at every appointment. It’s common and preventable enough that such a thing has become a routine policy.

Sometimes contact phone numbers are given in the form of a barcode sticker, so they can be safely placed somewhere like on a book or magazine should the woman need it. Because if the man finds their partner has any plans to leave, the woman is at drastically increased risk of murder - as it seems may have been the case here, with Caroline searching for hotels.

It’s a hidden world that most men and any woman in a healthy relationship will have little idea about, but trained professionals know how to identify those at risk, are constantly on the look out and should be positioned to help.

Her having PND, and her apparently attending therapy *with* her husband should also have increased the red flags.
If the therapist also had information regarding the husband and eg, substance abuse or addiction, more red flags. Enough to make some pretty red bunting, I suspect.

Obviously none of these things on their own, or even combined conclusively point to domestic abuse, and I’m not suggesting any of them are morally wrong or suspicious alone. But DV and DA does generally follow a recognisable pattern, and had somebody been joining up all the puzzle pieces in Caroline’s case, they might have been able to help her leave safely.

None of this makes it anyone’s “fault” except the killer’s, of course. But just as when a child is killed by family we review the agencies and professionals involved, it’s important to reflect on what happened in cases like this so we can look for opportunities to intervene sooner in other similar cases in future.

[For anyone reading this who might be in a similar situation: there are lots of agencies and support out there who can help you make a safe exit plan. Trying to leave is a notoriously dangerous time for women in abusive relationships.
Also, if a man ever chokes or puts his hands around your neck, statistically he is now significantly more likely to murder you at the next escalation. Get out. Stay safe.]
On average, in the U.K. it takes 35 incidents of domestic violence before a victim will report it and even then they often try to back out of any police or agency involvement within a couple of days. All that I will say is that I was a senior police officer in charge of the CID which encompassed 5 departments, one of which was the Domestic Violence unit . So I was the head , in charge ! And guess what? I went home and I was the typical little housewife who walked on eggshells and did what my husband said because it was the easiest option. I also told nobody because of fear of consequences should he find out that I had been talking, because of embarrassment that I was in charge of the unit that helped to rescue women from DV yet I was living this life myself, fear of what the future held without him as he was all I had ever known…. I could continue but I think you understand where I am coming from. I also heard a little voice in my head saying that I chose to marry this man and have children with him so I had made my bed and had to lie in it and most of all, I had to do so with a smile on my face and to be loyal to my husband and marriage and present a United front. Everyone and I mean everyone who knew us, thought that we had a perfect marriage. The day that I woke and decided to change my lot for the sake of my children’s future, and we separated, everyone was dumbfounded and really couldn’t believe where this had come from because we, more-so I , portrayed a perfect marriage. We had a 16 year age gap, my 23 years to his 39. We were married for 18 years and nobody but nobody could be held responsible because I chose to confide in nobody! So who is to say that this is what Caroline chose to do and therefore society didn’t let her or I down. How could it possibly? X
 
To be honest who knows if he cares deeply about the baby - he doesn't think much of vulnerable women and animals clearly. A lot of men feel displaced by babies anyway - particularly those in obsessive love. Jealous and coercive partners especially. Might have prompted some of their arguments. Not having the inhibition to not murder the mother in front of her baby....not sure he was thinking about anyone but himself at all that night!

IMO
 
When I watched C and B pics on Internet I noticed that his gaze was always out of focus, he looked sideways, never straight on. I didn't know what to think about it. And he never smiled. The only exception was their famous wedding photo - it was the only one they looked radiant and truly happy. I also read on her FB a line she dedicated to him: "You are the only flower I want to pick, even if thorns might cut my fingers". How strange.
 
On average, in the U.K. it takes 35 incidents of domestic violence before a victim will report it and even then they often try to back out of any police or agency involvement within a couple of days. All that I will say is that I was a senior police officer in charge of the CID which encompassed 5 departments, one of which was the Domestic Violence unit . So I was the head , in charge ! And guess what? I went home and I was the typical little housewife who walked on eggshells and did what my husband said because it was the easiest option. I also told nobody because of fear of consequences should he find out that I had been talking, because of embarrassment that I was in charge of the unit that helped to rescue women from DV yet I was living this life myself, fear of what the future held without him as he was all I had ever known…. I could continue but I think you understand where I am coming from. I also heard a little voice in my head saying that I chose to marry this man and have children with him so I had made my bed and had to lie in it and most of all, I had to do so with a smile on my face and to be loyal to my husband and marriage and present a United front. Everyone and I mean everyone who knew us, thought that we had a perfect marriage. The day that I woke and decided to change my lot for the sake of my children’s future, and we separated, everyone was dumbfounded and really couldn’t believe where this had come from because we, more-so I , portrayed a perfect marriage. We had a 16 year age gap, my 23 years to his 39. We were married for 18 years and nobody but nobody could be held responsible because I chose to confide in nobody! So who is to say that this is what Caroline chose to do and therefore society didn’t let her or I down. How could it possibly? X

Thank you for this.

It really helps to understand how any of us can be ashamed of DV enough to live a lie.

For some people, shame can lead to a lifetime of hiding from the abuser, and a constant fear of attack.
 
rbbm.
Greek admits strangling wife Caroline Crouch, who wanted to leave | News | The Times
''The husband of a young British mother has confessed to killing her at their Athens home in a fit of rage after she threatened to leave him, Greek police said last night.''

''Detectives said that a tracker on his mobile phone showed movement, contrary to his claim that he had been tied down by intruders.

“When faced with the evidence he confessed,” said Apostolos Skrekas, a spokesman for the Hellenic police. “The tracker contradicted his initial testimony that he had been roped up''
 
rbbm.
Greek admits strangling wife Caroline Crouch, who wanted to leave | News | The Times
''The husband of a young British mother has confessed to killing her at their Athens home in a fit of rage after she threatened to leave him, Greek police said last night.''

''Detectives said that a tracker on his mobile phone showed movement, contrary to his claim that he had been tied down by intruders.

“When faced with the evidence he confessed,” said Apostolos Skrekas, a spokesman for the Hellenic police. “The tracker contradicted his initial testimony that he had been roped up''
Does anyone know the penalty for unintentional homicide in Greece? Not that we know what he's been charged with, but it seems like that is what he is confessing to. It wouldn't seem like justice if he's sentenced to twenty years and out in ten.
 
Does anyone know the penalty for unintentional homicide in Greece? Not that we know what he's been charged with, but it seems like that is what he is confessing to. It wouldn't seem like justice if he's sentenced to twenty years and out in ten.
I agree.
He must be a very dangerous individual.
And the use of the word 'confessed' by the police/press doesn't really sit well for me.
It's not like he handed himself in, full of remorse and guilt.
He killed his wife and dog, staged a robbery, wasted weeks and weeks of police resources and kept up his pretence during his final questioning until finally, when presented with irrefutable evidence, he cracked. And even then, he's trying to blame Caroline for upsetting him to the point that he killed her.
 
snipped
But his interviews bothered me.
I couldn't understand how someone who'd lost the love of his life only days earlier, and in such a horrendous way, could even begin to face talking about it to the press.
And if you watched those interviews without sound, his body language and facial expressions seemed to me to appear as if he was scared or angry, not shocked and bereft.
Shady behaviour, like eyes reluctant to meet the gaze of his questioners. Rapid blinking. Covering face as if he's concentrating/praying/hiding...
And the way, in his first interview, he was about to get into his car, but when asked a question, jumped back out and seemed confrontational and angry.
And defensive. 'The shock hasn't passed' 'Not as upset as I am'.
His interviews were always about catching the burglars, never about the devastation of losing his wife and mother of his child.
 
Does anyone know the penalty for unintentional homicide in Greece? Not that we know what he's been charged with, but it seems like that is what he is confessing to. It wouldn't seem like justice if he's sentenced to twenty years and out in ten.
I don't know about that particular charge but a life sentence for murder is 25 years and typically 16 years are served, there is no death penalty, and yet the homicide rate is low.
There was some uproar over short sentences as a result of this murder but that was back when they were upset over immigrants breaking in and destroying a happy home, now that it's turned out to be typical domestic violence, we will have to wait and see if any changes are actually made. It was suggested the change should be made so murderers serve 20 years of a life sentence instead of 16.
The only people who serve more time than that are multiple murders, mass murders etc.
After Young Mother's Murder, Greece Plans Tougher Sentences
 
I realize we do not know all the facts of this horrific situation..
pieces will come out little by little...

but whatever this killer says to explain/cover/describe his part in the sad situation will probably indicate that he is still driving the narrative...
and that he may be quite confident he will be believed...

However... I have heard that investigators never ask questions of a potential perp that they do not already know the answers to...

these Greek LE have been playing this "player"...
and he probably is not even aware of it yet!

Good Work, Greek LE!!
 
That's no fault of theirs, though. Nobody really knows what goes on behind closed doors. They apparently thought they had the perfect marriage and that is what they observed. We have no evidence that there were any warning signs.

Caroline was of the age of consent when they met, so there was nothing illegal about their relationship. Either way, there was probably nothing anyone could do to stop them from getting married. The only person at fault here is the person who killed Caroline and that is her husband. Imo

She was not of the age of consent when they met. She still had two years of high school to finish. He 'waited' to consume their relationship until she turned 18 and they married. He groomed a child. Many Greek commentators on youtube and twitter called him a pedo right from the start. Had he been arrested for aggressively pursuing her as a child, she might still be alive today.

ETA: We covered this early on with discussion, links etc...
 
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She was not of the age of consent when they met. She still had two years of high school to finish. He 'waited' to consume their relationship until she turned 18 and they married. He groomed a child. Many Greek commentators on youtube and twitter called him a pedo right from the start. Had he been arrested for aggressively pursuing her as a child, she might still be alive today.
I thought the age of consent was 15 in Greece? I think you have to be 18 to marry, but the age of consent in most countries is lower. I don't think he could have been arrested unless she was underage or he had harmed her in some way. There was no way her family or friends could have known she would end up murdered.

Didn't Caroline post on SM that she was excited to begin their life together before they went to get married, or something like that?
 
SBM

but whatever this killer says to explain/cover/describe his part in the sad situation will probably indicate that he is still driving the narrative...
and that he may be quite confident he will be believed...

Yes! He uses his confession to try and continue his control of the narrative, as reported (Greek Reporter), “We had an argument that night. At one point she threw the child inside the crib and told me to get up and leave the house. [Caroline] pushed me and punched me. I blurred, I killed her and then I staged the robbery,” he told police investigators. She started it! She pushed him into rage! She drove him to kill her! Guess what, Mr. Fairytale man, LE never said anything about signs of bruising on you or C's knuckles showing impact from hitting you.
 
I thought the age of consent was 15 in Greece? I think you have to be 18 to marry, but the age of consent in most countries is lower. I don't think he could have been arrested unless she was underage or he had harmed her in some way. There was no way her family or friends could have known she would end up murdered.

Didn't Caroline post on SM that she was excited to begin their life together before they went to get married, or something like that?

Yes, I see what you mean now.
 
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