Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Silverlinging89]

It's quite difficult to tell time of death after the fact.

certainly can't be done to less than an hour! Body temp helps, as does things like livedo mortis and rigor mortis (later onset signs), then stomach empties after 4-6 hours after a meal.
So they just have some kind of idea where in the robbery timeline it happened - presumably early on but that's speculation.

 

[Patrick Jane]

It's quite difficult to tell time of death after the fact.

certainly can't be done to less than an hour! Body temp helps, as does things like livedo mortis and rigor mortis (later onset signs), then stomach empties after 4-6 hours after a meal.
So they just have some kind of idea where in the robbery timeline it happened - presumably early on but that's speculation.

This makes me wonder whether K's statement of 4:20-4:30 a.m. as the time of death is based on alternative evidence, or is maybe a bluff. JMO

 

[Silverlinging89]

Yes I found it interesting - there must be some other witness testimony or evidence of some kind to place the death.

 

[Dotta]

Yes I found it interesting - there must be some other witness testimony or evidence of some kind to place the death.

And thats why it was an error to disclose it! It would be an ace for prosecution during trial.

 

[Winterbells]

And thats why it was an error to disclose it! It would be an ace for prosecution during trial.

I'm not sure that the prosecution can introduce something during a trial they didn't disclose to the defence counsel beforehand. However, the police can certainly hold an ace card when it comes to interviewing a suspect.

 

[everybodhi]

It's quite difficult to tell time of death after the fact.

certainly can't be done to less than an hour! Body temp helps, as does things like livedo mortis and rigor mortis (later onset signs), then stomach empties after 4-6 hours after a meal.
So they just have some kind of idea where in the robbery timeline it happened - presumably early on but that's speculation.

They have many forensic TOD calculators online, I don’t know how accurate they are, I’m not a forensic pathologist, but for instance, the body temp TOD calculators say a body at 97F/36.11C, in a room temp of 75F/23.89C has been dead 2.1333 hours.
The formula approximates that the body loses 1.5F degrees per hour, so the core temperature is subtracted from the normal body temp of 98. The difference between the two is divided by 1.5, and that final number is used to approximate the time since death.
The cornea apparently changes at the 2 hour mark, as well.
Here’s a simple temperature calculator:
Time Of Death Calculator | Forensic Medicine
And this one has various other TOD calculations for professionals; potassium in eye fluid, brain temp, etc., but anyone can access the formulas after an easy registration
Forensic Time of Death calculator

 

[Dotta]

I read in Internet that this Glyka Nera part of Athens is very isolated - surrounded by warehouses and fields. Far from shops and city amenities. Without a car you would feel like in a prison. Did C have a car? I mean far from family, friends, with a baby and coping with depression in an area far far away from city lights and entertainment.

 

[Kittybunny]

I am really just sitting on my hands on this one...waiting waiting waiting...

 

[Winterbells]

I am really just sitting on my hands on this one...waiting waiting waiting...

I feel the same way, but find it hard to control hands.

 

[Patrick Jane]

This is a media interview with a crime journalist. She rehashes a lot of what we already know. But the gist of what she's saying here is that LE has completed its initial investigation, which concluded with sparse results and without DNA identification of a perpetrator. LE is widening their search areas on multiple fronts: widening the circle of CCTV that they're viewing, widening the circle of witnesses to include more people who potentially knew about the economic status of the couple.
In regard to CCTV, she says there is a lot of CCTV footage in these wider areas, and not only was most everyone asleep at these hours so hardly anyone would be driving, but because of the pandemic, there was also a curfew in effect, so even fewer people would be driving, and therefore this makes it much easier for LE to do their analysis of CCTV.
/end of summary and translation

If K is correct and LE are close to a solution to the crime, then it sounds to me like LE are being very careful to do an exhaustive search and cover all angles before they name a suspect/POI. JMO

 

[tayaway]

This is a media interview with a crime journalist. She rehashes a lot of what we already know. But the gist of what she's saying here is that LE has completed its initial investigation, which concluded with sparse results and without DNA identification of a perpetrator. LE is widening their search areas on multiple fronts: widening the circle of CCTV that they're viewing, widening the circle of witnesses to include more people who potentially knew about the economic status of the couple.
In regard to CCTV, she says there is a lot of CCTV footage in these wider areas, and not only was most everyone asleep at these hours so hardly anyone would be driving, but because of the pandemic, there was also a curfew in effect, so even fewer people would be driving, and therefore this makes it much easier for LE to do their analysis of CCTV.
/end of summary and translation

If K is correct and LE are close to a solution to the crime, then it sounds to me like LE are being very careful to do an exhaustive search and cover all angles before they name a suspect/POI. JMO

From one of the comments under the video, it appears that they discussed the dog, Bruno. He didn't bark at his killer (ETA: because he apparently knew the person), but he was so scared of the person that his bowels let go all over the floor. He was dragged from his cage to the staircase. Is this translation correct?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

The poor little thing

From one of the comments under the video, it appears that they discussed the dog, Bruno. He didn't bark at his killer (ETA: because he apparently knew the person), but he was so scared of the person that his bowels let go all over the floor. He was dragged from his cage to the staircase. Is this translation correct?

 

[Patrick Jane]

From one of the comments under the video, it appears that they discussed the dog, Bruno. He didn't bark at his killer (ETA: because he apparently knew the person), but he was so scared of the person that his bowels let go all over the floor. He was dragged from his cage to the staircase. Is this translation correct?

These comments must be in reference to what K said today. I'm working on a translation of K's latest interview.

 

[heartyhound]

From one of the comments under the video, it appears that they discussed the dog, Bruno. He didn't bark at his killer (ETA: because he apparently knew the person), but he was so scared of the person that his bowels let go all over the floor. He was dragged from his cage to the staircase. Is this translation correct?

Heartbreaking

 

[Patrick Jane]

K's latest media interview

He thinks this case will be solved. It's going to take time to look through all the CCTV (presumably the wider area referred to in my prior post). Speaking hypothetically on the window, he says maybe they (alleged perpetrators) had some kind of object which allowed them to kick the window out, so that it wound up inside. On the dog, he says to the newsman that he will tell him something (implying that this hasn't been previously disclosed to the public by LE), the environment/space was full of dog excrement, which means that the dog wasn't killed right away. The dog was pulled/dragged, and the dog, out of its fear, left behind this excrement. The dog was hanged on the interior staircase. He emphasizes once again that BA was tied with string. Regarding the electrical tape, he says, we've been calling it electrical tape, but, he says, if he's not mistaken, it was packaging tape. He describes the guns they (alleged perpetrators) used (per BA's statements) as a Glock and a silver revolver.

/my summary and translation

 

[Patrick Jane]

From one of the comments under the video, it appears that they discussed the dog, Bruno. He didn't bark at his killer (ETA: because he apparently knew the person), but he was so scared of the person that his bowels let go all over the floor. He was dragged from his cage to the staircase. Is this translation correct?

yesterday K told us that, according to the neighbor, the dog was grunting/growling/snarling, and today we have his further description of the unfortunate dog's savage treatment.

I don't see how's it possible that strangers (to the dog) could have set themselves upon a dog that they didn't know, treat him in this savage way, and that dog wouldn't back. Therefore, I agree that the lack of barking suggests only one thing, the dog must have known the perpetrator. MOO

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if they put the lights on as they entered. Because if they were in the dark and using only ambient light to move around in, my guess is they would have stepped in the dog excrement (and probably urine too) and trodden it all over the house, and up into the bedroom. If there are no traces in the bedroom, and if the lights were not on when police arrived, that would be remarkable, IMO.

Of course if they did step in it, that would definitely give the police shoe prints to work with. One might also think a sniffer dog could work with that too, to find the exit route and direction taken to the car. A smell like that would linger for ages.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if K is doing these media interviews as part of a strategy to speak to the killer, or if this is usual, in Greece, to reveal so much.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I wonder if they put the lights on as they entered. Because if they were in the dark and using only ambient light to move around in, my guess is they would have stepped in the dog excrement and trodden it all over the house, and up into the bedroom. If there are no traces in the bedroom, and if the lights were not on when police arrived, that would be remarkable, IMO.

Of course if they did step in it, that would definitely give the police shoe prints to work with. One might also think a sniffer dog could work with that too, to find the exit route and direction taken to the car. A smell like that would linger for ages.

MOO

In a similar vein, I would have thought that robbers would want to place a glass window outside, say, leaning against the exterior. Leaving it in the middle of the basement room seems like a dumb place to leave it because you could accidentally step on it. What's the lighting like in the basement? I mean you're supposed to be frantically rummaging through boxes looking for money, and now you have to remember where the glass is so you don't step on it? JMO

 

[Lola68]

Did B include the dog in his statement? i.e. when did he realise he'd been killed and hung from the staircase? Did he discover this around the same time as realising CC was dead, after the police arrived? A dog so scared it defecates would surely have woken them up...