Guilty of first degree murder/verdict watch #2

[borndem]

I did a lot of reading about Manson, the family, the various crimes they did, etc, etc. years ago. There must be 30+ books published. Helter Skelter is the best known because the author was one of the prosecutors, but there are many other books too. You can go on a deep, deep dive on that killer and stay immersed so long you'll need to decompress slowly or suffer the bends. So be prepared... Your wetsuit, O2 tank, flippers, and dive computer await.

Same, here, Mad74 - I received Helter Skelter for Christmas years (!) ago, and we visited DHs extended family (1st time for me) and I just sat there, for the most part, and kept my nose (& brain) in that book (it was my DH's fault -- he gave it to me!). Since that 1st reading, I have worn the book out and bought another -- I'm sure I've read it probably 6-7 times, along with other Manson-family related books.

I'm not sure what this collective fascination with that awful man is, but there are many people who do the same as you & I on that topic..... I guess it's because it is so far out w/respect to all the people involved, the time that it all occurred, and the madness of it....

 

[otto]

Yes, but coming up with the "missing" clothing would practically have guaranteed him an acquittal. And what innocent person would not have done that?

As I see it, blaming the jurors, who did their duty, is a continuation of the enabling behaviors that made JY a murdering narcissist in the first place.

I agree with you about prosecuting juror misconduct, if it did indeed happen. But we haven't seen any good evidence of that yet and I hate to see the expense of yet another trial foisted upon the people of that state. It is bad enough that the people of NC have to support JY for life. And another trial will still lead to a guilty verdict.

That makes it rather unfortunate that investigators did not request the clothes.

 

[gracielee]

That makes it rather unfortunate that investigators did not request the clothes.

Request what clothes? Jason Young would not speak to investigators. He would not even come out of the bedroom to let the police speak to him. To hear what they had to say. Are they supposed to have imagined what clothes *might* come up on a future video that they had no knowledge of at the time? They served search warrant upon search warrant *after* they were able to piece together the various videos from both HI & Cracker Barrel. Of course none of this info came from Jason, because he would not speak to them. They confiscated the car, luggage, and got descriptions of what he was wearing when he arrived at Meredith's house from Meredith, from Pat Young, from Heather.

What's *unfortunate* is that JLY couldn't come up with the dark shirt with the light stripe, nor could he come up with the HP's seen on the CB video. Nor were his jeans he was last seen on video wearing, in his luggage in his car. PY testified NOTHING was removed from that car. And PY testified that JLY was wearing DRESS CLOTHES, not JEANS, when he arrived at her home and when they arrived at Meredith's home.

 

[NCEast]

I did a lot of reading about Manson, the family, the various crimes they did, etc, etc. years ago. There must be 30+ books published. Helter Skelter is the best known because the author was one of the prosecutors, but there are many other books too. You can go on a deep, deep dive on that killer and stay immersed so long you'll need to decompress slowly or suffer the bends. So be prepared... Your wetsuit, O2 tank, flippers, and dive computer await.

Charles Manson and the Tate/La Bianca murders was my first true crime love. I was about the same age as many in 'the family'.....life on this coast was hell for me and I have often wondered had I been on the west coast during those years if I would have been a member of the family. I have read Helter Skelter each year since it was published and still find myself totally intrigued by Manson and his powers over people and his thought processes. It's that fine line between sanity and insanity.

 

[otto]

Request what clothes? Jason Young would not speak to investigators. He would not even come out of the bedroom to let the police speak to him. To hear what they had to say. Are they supposed to have imagined what clothes *might* come up on a future video that they had no knowledge of at the time? They served search warrant upon search warrant *after* they were able to piece together the various videos from both HI & Cracker Barrel. Of course none of this info came from Jason, because he would not speak to them. They confiscated the car, luggage, and got descriptions of what he was wearing when he arrived at Meredith's house from Meredith, from Pat Young, from Heather.

What's *unfortunate* is that JLY couldn't come up with the dark shirt with the light stripe, nor could he come up with the HP's seen on the CB video. Nor were his jeans he was last seen on video wearing, in his luggage in his car. PY testified NOTHING was removed from that car. And PY testified that JLY was wearing DRESS CLOTHES, not JEANS, when he arrived at her home and when they arrived at Meredith's home.

Investigators managed to request that Jason appear for pictures on Nov 7. If the clothes that he was wearing when he returned to Raleigh were important to the investigation, they should have been requested at the same time.

 

[gracielee]

Investigators managed to request that Jason appear for pictures on Nov 7. If the clothes that he was wearing when he returned to Raleigh were important to the investigation, they should have been requested at the same time.

The clothes that he was wearing when he returned to Raleigh were NOT important to them. Nowhere on video was he seen in DRESS CLOTHES. He was NEVER seen leaving the hotel that morning. The night before, he managed to be seen numerous times on video. Yet the following morning, not so much. Pat Young, Meredith Fisher, Linda Fisher, Heather, all stated Jason was wearing DRESS CLOTHES. Dress pants, dress shoes, a LIGHT COLORED thermal type shirt under a white DRESS shirt. None of those clothes played any part in the evidence. <modsnip>

 

[gracielee]

Charles Manson and the Tate/La Bianca murders was my first true crime love. I was about the same age as many in 'the family'.....life on this coast was hell for me and I have often wondered had I been on the west coast during those years if I would have been a member of the family. I have read Helter Skelter each year since it was published and still find myself totally intrigued by Manson and his powers over people and his thought processes. It's that fine line between sanity and insanity.

I'm of that same age too. I remember the Manson murders quite clearly. And like you, life was hell for me, though I wasn't on either coast. But for some reason I never identified with the manson girls/type. During that time period I was involved in the Vietnam War peace protests. So I guess in a way my rebellion or pain or disenchantment, had a different direction. Women's rights and stopping the war machine. I had too many friends who didn't come home. And of those who did return, most were *changed* deeply. So although the Manson stuff was shocking and traumatic, I think I was more effected personally by Kent State & the My Lai massacre.

 

[Madeleine74]

There seems to be this fantasy that all police have to do is immediately walk up to the spouse (i.e. the suspected perp) and ask him/her for his/her clothes & shoes s/he was wearing at the time their spouse was murdered.

Do people really believe that's how investigations work? What TV show is showing this fantasy scenario?

And then I've seen some of these same folks go on and say that unless or until police ask a potential perp for their clothes & shoes & the perp then says "I dunno where they are," those items can't really be considered 'missing.' Because a search warrant doesn't really count (I guess), and until a perp says the items are missing then...they aren't?

That's the logic employed?

Search warrants are the legal instruments used to seize items that may have evidential value to an investigation. LE doesn't verbally ask "pretty please may we have your clothes & shoes cause gosh, we can't seem to find them in this here luggage or car or house and we'd really really love to see them and get them tested in case you mistakenly got pieces of your spouse on them."

Clothes & shoes don't go walking away from people's homes on their own. They don't evaporate. If someone is seen on a video wearing an item and it's not seen or found the next day, and it's never seen again, the logical conclusion is the owner of the item disposed of it. Or I guess they just lost it a mere few hours later? But no, no it can't be missing. It's really there, it's just invisible I guess. Until the owner of said item says it's missing. Then it is.

 

[NCEast]

I'm of that same age too. I remember the Manson murders quite clearly. And like you, life was hell for me, though I wasn't on either coast. But for some reason I never identified with the manson girls/type. During that time period I was involved in the Vietnam War peace protests. So I guess in a way my rebellion or pain or disenchantment, had a different direction. Women's rights and stopping the war machine. I had too many friends who didn't come home. And of those who did return, most were *changed* deeply. So although the Manson stuff was shocking and traumatic, I think I was more effected personally by Kent State & the My Lai massacre.

I am appreciative to you for your protests of the war and your fight for the women's movements Glee. They paid off for the most part. At that time, I only wanted somebody to love me--if that somebody had been Manson, it would have been better than what I had. That's how deep my personal hole was during those years.
About the Raven Abaroa case--just saw on the WRAL internet news that Janet's family is afraid that this mess with ex-DA Cline will delay his trial. I am really looking forward to that one and don't want any more delays. It's been too long already.

 

[Boodles]

Last I heard, Becky Holt had the Grant Hayes case to handle. If this case *goes away* I wonder if GH will be next. There hasn't been any news on that case. I personally wonder what the defense case would be. "It wasn't me?" (thinking of that song by Shaggy).

Really, he ought to confess - they have the goods on him. What's the question? I guess the degree to which Amanda or Grant was the instigator is an issue? No, actually, either way, it's 1st degree murder. I don't get the delay. What a horrific crime that was.

 

[gracielee]

I am appreciative to you for your protests of the war and your fight for the women's movements Glee. They paid off for the most part. At that time, I only wanted somebody to love me--if that somebody had been Manson, it would have been better than what I had. That's how deep my personal hole was during those years.
About the Raven Abaroa case--just saw on the WRAL internet news that Janet's family is afraid that this mess with ex-DA Cline will delay his trial. I am really looking forward to that one and don't want any more delays. It's been too long already.

((( NCEast ))), I was lucky in that respect. Met hubby during the summer of love, 1967, so I was no longer searching for love. I remember being the most moved the hour the war ended. And then standing watch, (on TV), for each plane that landed bringing our POW's home.

I too read the Abaroa case update. It said that Tracey Cline wasn't actively involved in that case so hopefully it won't be delayed. Janet's family have been waiting longer than the Fishers for justice for Janet. I haven't watched any Durham trials lately, do they have any good DA's? Does anyone know who is handling the Abaroa case for the DA's office?

 

[Just the Fax]

Collins gave the jury hints.
Did he think they were so stupid and not able to realize the jeans from the luggage were not the same as the pants in the CB video or in front of the elevator? He just helped prove the pants, in addition to the shirt & shoes were oddly missing.

 

[gracielee]

Collins gave the jury hints.
Did he think they were so stupid and not able to realize the jeans from the luggage were not the same as the pants in the CB video or in front of the elevator?

Well the previous jury *bought* the birthday shirt. :what: I suppose he thought 'it worked once, why not try it again?' :maddening:

 

[jilly]

Well the previous jury *bought* the birthday shirt. :what: I suppose he thought 'it worked once, why not try it again?' :maddening:

LOL I was just getting ready to type exactly what you did and because of it to tell JtF to give Collins a break!

 

[terminatrixator]

((( NCEast ))), I was lucky in that respect. Met hubby during the summer of love, 1967, so I was no longer searching for love. I remember being the most moved the hour the war ended. And then standing watch, (on TV), for each plane that landed bringing our POW's home.

I too read the Abaroa case update. It said that Tracey Cline wasn't actively involved in that case so hopefully it won't be delayed. Janet's family have been waiting longer than the Fishers for justice for Janet. I haven't watched any Durham trials lately, do they have any good DA's? Does anyone know who is handling the Abaroa case for the DA's office?

OT/ Jim Dornfried is the ada on the case, but he announced he's running for Judge Orlando Hudson's seat. So who knows, I know there hasn't been any trial date, or any action at all lately.

The ABC11 news video went into more details from Janet's family.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/video?id=8574327

 

[Lucky89]

Prosecutor Becky Holt discusses Jason Young trial


link: http://video.journalnow.com/v/52882152/prosecutor-becky-holt-discusses-jason-young-trial.htm

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, but coming up with the "missing" clothing would practically have guaranteed him an acquittal. And what innocent person would not have done that?

As I see it, blaming the jurors, who did their duty, is a continuation of the enabling behaviors that made JY a murdering narcissist in the first place.

I agree with you about prosecuting juror misconduct, if it did indeed happen. But we haven't seen any good evidence of that yet and I hate to see the expense of yet another trial foisted upon the people of that state. It is bad enough that the people of NC have to support JY for life. And another trial will still lead to a guilty verdict.

Jason was not required to come up with missing clothing. Your opinion that it would have guaranteed an acquittal is just that. Jurors were supposed to follow instructions and forcing him to prove his innocence wasn't listed.

The jurors had a duty to follow the Judge's instructions. If they failed to do so in any way, they'll pay the consequences. I do agree that a fourth-grader should understand the concept.

JMO

 

[gracielee]

OT/ Jim Dornfried is the ada on the case, but he announced he's running for Judge Orlando Hudson's seat. So who knows, I know there hasn't been any trial date, or any action at all lately.

The ABC11 news video went into more details from Janet's family.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/video?id=8574327

So does Hudson hold the same position in Durham Co. as Judge Stephens, or is he simply a judge running for office? I can't believe Aboroa doesn't even have a trial date yet. Is the defense asking for continuances or is this a DA hold-up, do you know?

 

[MyBelle]

bbm
The burden of proof IS on the prosecution, and if he does get a new
trial (highly unlikely) the outcome will be the same. Evidence proves Jason Young murdered his wife, that won't change.

It's highly unlikely the next jury will ignore the judge's instructions.

JMO

 

[OneLove]

It's highly unlikely the next jury will ignore the judge's instructions.

JMO

Is there a reason why you think that is highly unlikely? I mean, given the small likelihood there would even BE a "next jury"?

Do you believe Jason Young is guilty of murdering his wife?