GUILTY GUILTY VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #9

[tapu]

Are you suggesting the Inverse Demonic Possession Defense?! That is, he killed them because he thought the girls, mom, and maybe also dad were possessed?

There might be any number of reasons a sick mind might think it was necessary and right to kill these people.


I really don't see that this is so whacked an idea as to invite ridicule but... YMMV.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Maybe they called SM a "c" or gay or something. That may have done it; one can take getting picked on only so much. :croc:

My head is killing me.

 

[dangrsmind]

There might be any number of reasons a sick mind might think it was necessary and right to kill these people.


I really don't see that this is so whacked an idea as to invite ridicule but... YMMV.

It's no more ridiculous than any of my suggestions, I was just teasing not trying to ridicule anyone. Sorry to offend.

 

[dangrsmind]

Here's a story where the killer claims his victim was possessed.

Suspect in Dallas test-drive death says salesman 'possessed'

A Dallas man accused of killing a car salesman called himself the "anti-Christ" Wednesday and said he felt no remorse about the man's death because the victim "was possessed."

James Allen Thorpe, who has a history of mental illness, was under suicide watch Wednesday at the Dallas County Jail. He is charged with robbery and capital murder in the death of Manuel Dodge car salesman John Phinney of Dallas.

Mr. Phinney, 53, died Tuesday after falling or being pushed out of a moving truck during a test drive with Mr. Thorpe along Central Expressway.

"We're still trying to determine what was said in the cab," Richardson police Sgt. Kevin Perlich said Wednesday. "We don't know for sure."

During a rambling and often-disjointed jailhouse interview Wednesday, the 41-year-old Mr. Thorpe preferred to talk about religion and the stock market rather than the events that unfolded Tuesday evening.

But when asked what he had said to Mr. Phinney during the test drive, Mr. Thorpe replied, "I told him to repent if he wanted to save his soul." He said that at that point, Mr. Phinney cursed him and jumped out of the moving vehicle.

"He was miraculously lifted" from the truck, he said.

"It wasn't my fault," Mr. Thorpe said. "He was possessed."

Although he initially said he had no remorse over the incident, Mr. Thorpe later said he felt sorry for Mr. Phinney's family.

Dallas resident Suzette Wall, who had known Mr. Phinney for five years, said the car salesman was one of the kindest people she had ever known. "He was a Christian man," she said.

...

From http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/100908dnmetrichmurder.3d93921.html

 

[PAXIMUS]

Sam knew what he was doing was wrong I dont think there is any doubt about that. He may have had a moment of temporary insanity when he killed the ladies but that wont fly with the Pastor's killing several days later and that is likely why the prosecution will focus mostly on that murder and not so much the other 3 simply because there is no excuse for him to have murdered the Pastor so long after having killed the other 3 and as much as I hate to say it I do believe DM is right, the Pastor's murder is likely what is going to result in Sam's eventual execution, as hard as I try to figure out a way around there I cannot. Unless the prosecution is feeling overwhelmingly charitable at the time of trial or in negotiations prior, I simply see no reason why they will not go for the DP in this case because they will more than likely get it and the jury wont deliberate this more than hour or two IMO.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Here's a story where the killer claims his victim was possessed.

Suspect in Dallas test-drive death says salesman 'possessed'

A Dallas man accused of killing a car salesman called himself the "anti-Christ" Wednesday and said he felt no remorse about the man's death because the victim "was possessed."

James Allen Thorpe, who has a history of mental illness, was under suicide watch Wednesday at the Dallas County Jail. He is charged with robbery and capital murder in the death of Manuel Dodge car salesman John Phinney of Dallas.

Mr. Phinney, 53, died Tuesday after falling or being pushed out of a moving truck during a test drive with Mr. Thorpe along Central Expressway.

"We're still trying to determine what was said in the cab," Richardson police Sgt. Kevin Perlich said Wednesday. "We don't know for sure."

During a rambling and often-disjointed jailhouse interview Wednesday, the 41-year-old Mr. Thorpe preferred to talk about religion and the stock market rather than the events that unfolded Tuesday evening.

But when asked what he had said to Mr. Phinney during the test drive, Mr. Thorpe replied, "I told him to repent if he wanted to save his soul." He said that at that point, Mr. Phinney cursed him and jumped out of the moving vehicle.

"He was miraculously lifted" from the truck, he said.

"It wasn't my fault," Mr. Thorpe said. "He was possessed."

Although he initially said he had no remorse over the incident, Mr. Thorpe later said he felt sorry for Mr. Phinney's family.

Dallas resident Suzette Wall, who had known Mr. Phinney for five years, said the car salesman was one of the kindest people she had ever known. "He was a Christian man," she said.

...

From http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/100908dnmetrichmurder.3d93921.html

I have to try and find the case but there was a local man in Tucson, Arizona when I was in college who was charged with the murder of 3 women, pretty brutal murder as I recall. Anyway he claimed that aliens told him to do it and had been communicating with him for several years about this. He ended up representing himself and used this alien defense. The first trial was a hung jury which surprised everyone, then they retiried him and he was represented the second time by one of the cities best CD attornies and he ended up getting not guilty by reason of insanity and is still in a menal facility to this day I believe.

 

[wadahoot]

Would one of you lawyer-sorts take a gander at this post and the included link http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4801324&postcount=457

It's from the very odd case on another WS thread, and someone turned up a lawsuit for past-due child support. We're trying to understand if Sherilynn owed Billy or Billy owed Sherilynn. Thanks much!

 

[tapu]

There is a thread on here currently about a doctor who stabbed his small son to death a few months ago because he thought the son "had the devil in him." Of course, I don't know where that case will go, but I don't think this is a terribly rare--nor that rarely a successful--defense.

I want to explain, too, that I'm not saying this route would have to hinge on possession. Sam's delusions could be identified as paranoia that the victims were plotting to kill him, a belief that the famly was incestuous and thus "tainted," or any other number of things. Something related to the horrorcore scene, the photos,.... If I were Sam's lawyer, I'd be turning this over in my head.

 

[PAXIMUS]

There is a thread on here currently about a doctor who stabbed his small son to death a few months ago because he thought the son "had the devil in him." Of course, I don't know where that case will go, but I don't think this is a terribly rare--nor that rarely a successful--defense.

I want to explain, too, that I'm not saying this route would have to hinge on possession. Sam's delusions could be identified as paranoia that the victims were plotting to kill him, a belief that the famly was incestuous and thus "tainted," or any other number of things. Something related to the horrorcore scene, the photos,.... If I were Sam's lawyer, I'd be turning this over in my head.

Thats basically what I was getting at in my previous post. I wasnt trying to suggest there was molestation or anything going on with Emma's family but if Sam believed something like this or the incestuous or possessed etc, as you suggest, it very well could be used as a credible defense and would also allow him to get away with the Pastor's killing because no matter how long it was after he had to 'finish the job.'

I actually wouldnt be surprised if Sam were to eventually make some sort of claim such as these or similar.

Emma and Mel being in to the horrcore thing pretty hardcore could have jokingly or in a mean spirited way, suggested to Sam, that they were going to kill him or have him killed or brutually murdered and he took it seriously enough to wipe them all out and defend himself. If it could be proven he actually believed this, which wouldnt be easy in and of itself, this could work as a defense of some sort or at least lighten the punishment.

Perhaps it was even suggested that the Pastor was on his way over to drive a crucifix through Sam's heart and rid him of his satanic demons and he killed the girls and then bunkered down to wait for his intended target.

I have also wondered recently if Sam could have been involuntarily and unknowingly drugged as a joke by Emma and Mel, maybe some bad acid and a resulting bad trip led to this?

 

[dangrsmind]

Thats basically what I was getting at in my previous post. I wasnt trying to suggest there was molestation or anything going on with Emma's family but if Sam believed something like this or the incestuous or possessed etc, as you suggest, it very well could be used as a credible defense and would also allow him to get away with the Pastor's killing because no matter how long it was after he had to 'finish the job.'

I actually wouldnt be surprised if Sam were to eventually make some sort of claim such as these or similar.

Emma and Mel being in to the horrcore thing pretty hardcore could have jokingly or in a mean spirited way, suggested to Sam, that they were going to kill him or have him killed or brutually murdered and he took it seriously enough to wipe them all out and defend himself. If it could be proven he actually believed this, which wouldnt be easy in and of itself, this could work as a defense of some sort or at least lighten the punishment.

Perhaps it was even suggested that the Pastor was on his way over to drive a crucifix through Sam's heart and rid him of his satanic demons and he killed the girls and then bunkered down to wait for his intended target.

I have also wondered recently if Sam could have been involuntarily and unknowingly drugged as a joke by Emma and Mel, maybe some bad acid and a resulting bad trip led to this?

Still, you have to convince a jury that this is true and not just an excuse to get away with murder. This seems like the place where the prosecution wants to bring in the music as evidence that he was planning this, or something like it, for a long time before he went to Farmville.

What do you think?

 

[PAXIMUS]

Still, you have to convince a jury that this is true and not just an excuse to get away with murder. This seems like the place where the prosecution wants to bring in the music as evidence that he was planning this, or something like it, for a long time before he went to Farmville.

What do you think?

Absolutely very difficult to prove to a jury, I agree. It would be a risky defense but if that is what Sam claims his lawyer may have to roll with it one way or another.

 

[dangrsmind]

I've done some research into this notion that he might have believed his victims to have been possessed. A recent notable case of this sort is the terrible story of Banita Jacks who killed her four daughters because she thought they were possessed. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/14/AR2009071402559.html

Some interesting possible connections to this case, I noted especially the things there about Jacks smelling demonic odors in her house and these odors permeating her furniture.

See http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/073009_jacks_interrogation_videotape_released

I note however that in this case the defense was not successful.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I can't think of any defense angle that would "excuse" what SM has done to Emma, her parents and friend. Even if he's found to have a mental illness he'd still have to be locked up for life. There's no way to trust he'd not go off the deep end and murder people again.

The only thing I can think of that might help him is if it can be proven that he followed someone elses instructions. Even then, he's the one who committed the crimes.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I can't think of any defense angle that would "excuse" what SM has done to Emma, her parents and friend. Even if he's found to have a mental illness he'd still have to be locked up for life. There's no way to trust he'd not go off the deep end and murder people again.

The only thing I can think of that might help him is if it can be proven that he followed someone elses instructions. Even then, he's the one who committed the crimes.

I am only entertaining ideas that may save his life, he does indeed need to pay for what he did one way or another but I dont support the DP in this case.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Well I seriously doubt he will take the stand but at some point we will hear from Sam and I cant wait.

I dont think there is a good explanation for what happened but stranger things have occured.


I agree that if he does get the DP it will be based on that whole lapse in time between the father andf the first 3.

It would be interesting to hear his explanation and to watch him as he tells his side of the story. But that will never happen.

I had no idea when I got interested in the Caylee case, that it could take years to come to trial. I'm not very patient I guess and now this is another one that I'm curious to know more about. I dare not get into yet another case or I'll be forever worried about their outcomes that seem to never come. I can't stand not knowing the truth. I keep hoping that I'd log in one day over at Caylee case and someone would post that they know exactly what happened - that everything would click and justice could be served. In Emma's case, the crime scene is not in question but still so many questions and so few answers as to the motive. Mind boggling stuff. It's making me sad when there's nothing to examine. It's all so sad for everyone involved.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I am only entertaining ideas that may save his life, he does indeed need to pay for what he did one way or another but I dont support the DP in this case.

I have a hard time deciding if I do or don't believe in the death penalty. One day I think that it makes sense to punish with same. Other days I think I would never want to be the one to put the injection, etc. Then when I think of the horrific things people can do and do do, I think who cares what happens to them - they cause so much pain, no joy. Then I think about mistakes being made. Then I know I believe the death penalty should never be sentenced if there is ANY doubt. But when a person is witnessed at the scene or even in the case of SM (the way it appears but after trial), I think who cares really? There are so many 'good' people who need help. But regarding Casey A. I'm not for the DP unless I see further evidence. People already have her in the chamber and I'm :waitasec: how can they be 100% sure.

Did I mention I have Gemini rising? I found out reading on WS that that may have something to do with my flip-flop leanings. :crazy:

 

[PAXIMUS]

It would be interesting to hear his explanation and to watch him as he tells his side of the story. But that will never happen.

I had no idea when I got interested in the Caylee case, that it could take years to come to trial. I'm not very patient I guess and now this is another one that I'm curious to know more about. I dare not get into yet another case or I'll be forever worried about their outcomes that seem to never come. I can't stand not knowing the truth. I keep hoping that I'd log in one day over at Caylee case and someone would post that they know exactly what happened - that everything would click and justice could be serviced. In Emma's case, the crime scene is not in question but still so many questions and so few answers as to the motive. Mind boggling stuff. It's making me sad when there's nothing to examine. It's all so sad for everyone involved.

My wife just had a baby so depending on how things go in the next few months I had been planning to travel to VA for the trial and cover it here on this thread as live as possible, and have already come to a verbal agreement with Sam to possibly write his story for him when he is ready to tell it.

So we will just have to see what happens. I have no interest in making any money off a book that I may write about Sam but perhaps the money could go to a fund for the victims families and victims of other crimes or a horrocore deprogramming center.:dance:

 

[PAXIMUS]

It would be interesting to hear his explanation and to watch him as he tells his side of the story. But that will never happen.

I had no idea when I got interested in the Caylee case, that it could take years to come to trial. I'm not very patient I guess and now this is another one that I'm curious to know more about. I dare not get into yet another case or I'll be forever worried about their outcomes that seem to never come. I can't stand not knowing the truth. I keep hoping that I'd log in one day over at Caylee case and someone would post that they know exactly what happened - that everything would click and justice could be serviced. In Emma's case, the crime scene is not in question but still so many questions and so few answers as to the motive. Mind boggling stuff. It's making me sad when there's nothing to examine. It's all so sad for everyone involved.

I have followed the CA case also and FWIW I am pretty certain she used her car trunk as a babysitter and something went wrong as such. CA is a poster child for sociopathy.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I have a hard time deciding if I do or don't believe in the death penalty. One day I think that it makes sense to punish with same. Other days I think I would never want to be the one to put the injection, etc. Then when I think of the horrific things people can do and do do, I think who cares what happens to them - they cause so much pain, no joy. Then I think about mistakes being made. Then I know I believe the death penalty should never be sentenced if there is ANY doubt. But when a person is witnessed at the scene or even in the case of SM (the way it appears but after trial), I think who cares really? There are so many 'good' people who need help. But regarding Casey A. I'm not for the DP unless I see further evidence. People already have her in the chamber and I'm :waitasec: how can they be 100% sure.

Did I mention I have Gemini rising? I found out reading on WS that that may have something to do with my flip-flop leanings. :crazy:

I am fully against the DP but I absolutely understand where you are coming from and I also have struggled with it myself and finally came to the conclusion that I am just not comfortable with state sanctioned executions but I certainly respect those who feel otherwise. I do know for a fact that a DP is much more expensive than keeping someone in prison for life without parole so if money is the reason for supporting the DP, assuming we save money executing them as opposed to housing them for life then people need to understand that a DP is much, much more expensive by millions of dollars often, than LWOP.

For me though, it is a simple matter of an unwillingness to give the state that sort of power.

Also you make an excellent point, there are too many people on death row as we speak who are completely innocent of the crimes of which they have been accused and the execution of just a single innocent man is unexcusable and reason enough to bring an end to capital punishment permanently.


It also pains me to read other threads on this forum where the majority of people want to fry everyone before they have even had their trial. That is the one reason I stick to this thread and dont visit many others, this is really a special group of people here.

 

[tapu]

I've done some research into this notion that he might have believed his victims to have been possessed. A recent notable case of this sort is the terrible story of Banita Jacks who killed her four daughters because she thought they were possessed. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/14/AR2009071402559.html

Some interesting possible connections to this case, I noted especially the things there about Jacks smelling demonic odors in her house and these odors permeating her furniture.

See http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/073009_jacks_interrogation_videotape_released

I note however that in this case the defense was not successful.

Whoa, well... if they didn't let her off, Sam can kiss his *advertiser censored* good-bye--even if he really is insane like that.