Gun Control Debate #3

[bluesneakers]

Most supermarket meat is from factory type places where fattening the animals and just warehousing them until kill time is the most important thing which means those horrific cages you see PETA people talking about? And hormones and antibiotics which wouldn't be in a wild animal?

I meant more in the philosophical sense. I have a friend who would never hunt (and use a gun - he is very anti-gun) but will buy steak or whatever in the grocery store (so no need to use/own a gun). I think it's an interesting perspective. Like I think of how the animal is treated or the cost or the hormones, etc., like you mention and never considered it a gun issue until he explained it that way.

 

[rsd1200]

Just been reading a bit.

Dems held the 103rd Congress '93-'95


Democrats introduced the "Federal Assaults Weapon Ban " on 10/26/1993


It Became Public Law No: 103-322 on 09/13/1994


November 8, 1994, Republican Revolution:
The Republican Party won control of both the House and the Senate in midterm congressional elections, the first time in 40 years the Republicans secured control of both houses of Congress.


From 1994 to 2004, the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was in place (CRS report here).


Years Shootings Per year People shot/year
1982-1994 19 1.5 25.5
1995-2004 16 1.6 20.9
2005-2012 27 3.4* 54.8*
*p<0.05 compared with 1995-2004.


Since the expiration of the gun ban in 2004, the number of shootings per year has doubled, and the number of victims per year has nearly tripled. Three of the bloodiest four years shown here occurred since the expiration. (see link)


However, the assault-weapon-ban hypothesis does not explain why victims and shootings were not as common before 1994. Has something new happened in the last decade? War? Economic disruption? Lax monitoring of the mentally ill? Whatever the case, renewing the assault weapon ban as a route to pre-2005 conditions seems like a rational response to today&#8217;s horrific events. (1)

During the ban:

May 1998, KK took a .22 Ruger, a 9 mm Glock, a Ruger semi rifle w/a 50 round magazine to murder his parents and two classmates.


April 1999, EH & DK used a Tec-DC9 semi handgun, a 9 mm Hi-Point semiautomatic carbine rifle and two sawed-off shotguns (supplemented by more than fifty bombs). Under the "Federal Assaults Weapon Ban ", only the double barrel sawed off shotguns were illegal, and the explosives. (2)


Columbine was meant to explode the building but it didn't happen. They couldn't bring down the town so they were going to bring down their school. A diversionary bomb was set off first to get LE occupied. There were a total of 76 devices found at the school, two diversionary devices, 13 devices in the suspects&#8217; cars, and 8 more at their two homes or a total of 99 explosive devices. (2)

Street gangs immediately liked the Tec-DC9, which retailed for around $200, but it really gained popularity in the mid-Eighties after Miami Vice began to regularly feature dapper drug lords carrying it. Police called it criminals' "weapon of choice."


After the ban, The new version of the Tec-DC9, released in 1994, was renamed the AB-10. Garcia openly admitted that AB stands for after ban. The only change made to the gun was the removal of both the threaded barrel (which can hold a silencer) and the option of a barrel shroud. (3)


FWIW, E's website rant, in part, is in the link too. It's worth a read, at it is very similar to what we see, when these kids start to become. (3)



(1)Fed Ban 1994, Did it matter?: http://election.princeton.edu/2012/12/14/did-the-federal-ban-on-assault-weapons-matter/


(2) Firearms at Columbine: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/EQUIPMENT_TEXT.htm
Bombs at Columbine: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/BOMBS_TEXT.htm


(3)How They Got the Guns (1999) https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/how-they-got-the-guns-19990610

 

[rsd1200]

In my family the hunting was for food, but the actual killing part came second to the adventure part. I went on many hunting trips and it was no different from a camping trip. When I think of hunting as a sport I think of trophy hunting, not hunting for food.

I've eaten deer, dove, frog legs, fish and fish eggs, that dad brought in from his excursions, he used to hunt squirrel and rabbit too (not my thang, but there's always peanut butter sandwiches). My grandmother was even known to bake a groundhog... I don't think it was much of a family favorite for anyone, but if it was brought in, she'd give it a try! Unless you're going to eat it, or it's about to eat you, leave it be. Shoot it with a camera.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Oh, I totally agree with you! Thank you for clarifying.

I was making the point that recreational/sport hunting and sustenance hunting are not synonymous, especially around my family's neck of the woods. Killing for sport is a whole other thing, and reminds me of the story most of us had to read in high school, "The Most Dangerous Game."

People do hunt for sport. There are all kinds of trips for sport hunting of all kinds of animals. Boars in New Zealand, endangered animals in Africa, game farms in the US. There are other kinds of animal hunting farms in the US as well.

Respectfully, by definition, hunting for food isn’t the same as sport hunting. Sport is considered recreational, food is necessity.

Growing up, my dad’s family hunted deer every season. They hunted quail and fished, too. They also raised cattle for show and personal slaughter.

The meat fed their family of four, my two grandparents, their three adults children when they’d visit and a motley bunch of grandkids, extended family (my grandma has nine siblings who all lived in the same town) and was served at reunions, weddings, gatherings, large church functions in the community, etc.

It fed dozens upon dozens of family members and the community for months. Nothing was wasted. The whole town was related, just about, formed by German immigrants.

Heck, grandma even had a small still in a closet, and she made her own “wine.”

They weren’t rich by any stretch. None of them were. They are truly cowboys, crop dusters, small farmers — people who live on and with the land.

A half-acre garden at my grandparent’s home provided corn, carrots, tomatoes, squash, cucumbers/pickles, green beans, etc. Extras were canned and jarred.

It resembled any other self-sufficient, multigenerational community. They took care of themselves and each other. They still do.

Just wanted to clear that up, because there are still a lot of folks like that in this country.

They couldn’t afford to eat otherwise.

 

[rsd1200]

You have to go where they are. There are deer kills in cities in MN because they are so prolific. I think bows are used. I am sure not guns. I could google but too lazy. I think there are cities all over the US that have deer kills. Not sure though.

They are a problem because of so many . They starve to death so it is felt that it is better to thin the herds.

Some people are upset by this.

Since my husband comes from a hunting family, although he stopped decades ago, he kmows all about understanding animals and their habits and the habitat that they live in.

I can see a couple deer standing in my backyard, and if I so much as step the wrong way, to try and shoot them, with a camera, (I like photography), one will stamp. It alerts the others, and the others that I can't see at all, that there's a potential threat. I can stand perfectly still and they will too. If I bring my camera up too soon, or the wind blows my scent, another stamp and/or snort, and they are gone. All I get is the blur of a white tail.

I was in a small town in Colorado, and the elk would just wander through the little town, and eat their flowers in the evening. The bear would come in and try to get into the bear proof trash cans. I never saw one when we were out in the mountains though.

We can't even shoot a deer, to put it out of it's misery, if we hit one. We have to wait for LE, and LE, if no one is hurt, will not arrive at break neck speed, b/c they hope the deer will die on it's own. Every time they discharge their firearm it requires paperwork.

 

[rsd1200]

People do hunt for sport. There are all kinds of trips for sport hunting of all kinds of animals. Boars in New Zealand, endangered animals in Africa, game farms in the US. There are other kinds of animal hunting farms in the US as well.

I don't believe in that type of hunting. If you're not going to eat it, or it's not about to eat you, leave it be. Shoot it with a camera.

 

[kimlynn]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/florida-legislature-debates-school-safety-gun-measures-53526902

Florida Legislature debates school safety,gun measures.

 

[human]

Most supermarket meat is from factory type places where fattening the animals and just warehousing them until kill time is the most important thing which means those horrific cages you see PETA people talking about? And hormones and antibiotics which wouldn't be in a wild animal?

Animals do drink water that has hormones and antibiotics in it but of course, far less than factory animals.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Vegans are fine by me! My only issue is with pescatarians who claim to be vegetarian as though fish don't count.

Don’t forget the pastafarians! jk

[emoji6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

 

[flourish]

Don’t forget the pastafarians! jk

[emoji6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Ha ha ha! Actually, my brother claims membership to the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster lol. He likes to agree to things by saying, "R'amen!"

He's avoided doing it in front of our extremely devout LDS father though tee hee.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Ha ha ha! Actually, my brother claims membership to the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster lol. He likes to agree to things by saying, "R'amen!"

He's avoided doing it in front of our extremely devout LDS father though tee hee.

OT

Just this morning, I used “R’amen” to sign off on a long email chain! Hahahaaaaa. Haven’t done that in quite awhile.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

No that was fine thanks. Now I'm starting to feel attacked for being a non meat eater or a killer of animals.

All MOO of course, but tone and phrasing might impact how something’s interpreted. In my experience anyway, my sense of humor can sometimes be blunted by own frankness in written communications.

 

[kaen]

I don't think I can wade into this conversation but I do have a vignette.

I spent some time in Alaska. The highlight of the days were radio-- Alaska Bush Radio. In Alaska, one can sign up for picking up roadkill to dress for consumption. People get an allotted mileage (say mile marker 50 to 59) and when an animal is hit and killed by a truck or car, the highway people or LEO call the person to let them know that they need to come to mile marker X to pick up the carcass. I thought it was ingenious and, evidently, it was a beloved way to honor the animal and harvest the meat.

Why tell this story? I don't know. I guess reading all of the hunting stuff inspired me. Back to gun control lurking for me.

http://www.newsminer.com/news/local...cle_f571c131-bb54-566d-afd6-41359a8d1afc.html interesting story

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/art...l-moose-retrieval-renewed-expands/2012/01/29/

 

[flourish]

I don't think I can wade into this conversation but I do have a vignette.

I spent some time in Alaska. The highlight of the days were radio-- Alaska Bush Radio. In Alaska, one can sign up for picking up roadkill to dress for consumption. People get an allotted mileage (say mile marker 50 to 59) and when an animal is hit and killed by a truck or car, the highway people or LEO call the person to let them know that they need to come to mile marker X to pick up the carcass. I thought it was ingenious and, evidently, it was a beloved way to honor the animal and harvest the meat.

Why tell this story? I don't know. I guess reading all of the hunting stuff inspired me. Back to gun control lurking for me.

http://www.newsminer.com/news/local...cle_f571c131-bb54-566d-afd6-41359a8d1afc.html interesting story

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/art...l-moose-retrieval-renewed-expands/2012/01/29/

I know there is something similar in my area in which my coworkers participate. Idk how much it costs to have a butcher do... whatever has to be done if one doesn't do it themselves?

 

[kimlynn]

All MOO of course, but tone and phrasing might impact how something’s interpreted. In my experience anyway, my sense of humor can sometimes be blunted by own frankness in written communications.

I was kidding about feeling attacked.... a little bit anyway.lol Sometimes my sense of humor can get me in trouble as well.
If I allowed my feelers to get hurt easily I would have to leave the internets.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

Playing a video game shouldn't make one go out and shoot school children but it has been mentioned as a possible cause.

Maybe this will be a strange comparison but.... When I discovered the "undo" function in Word I was very happy - it saved a lot of time. Then one day I dropped a glass (which killed it dead). And found myself raising my mouse hand in order to find the "undo" icon. So, video games where you kill people who resuscitate when you start again may have a share of responsibility in mass murders imo.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

O/T quick question: Do you think there's a difference between the meat you get at a butcher shop and the meat someone brings home from a trip to the woods? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just genuinely curious because I know some people see a difference.

Ontopic: I wonder how many mass shooters and school shooters started out as deer or duck hunters.

When I was young I was rabidly against hunting, because cruelty and all that. Then I slowly realised (and bluedivergirl higher in the thread exprimed it very well) that animals raised for meat live a life of suffering. Animals hunted for meat have a fulfilling life before being killed. My only concern now is when animals are only wounded and crawl away to die.

Also, as many posters said, it's a source of cheap and healthy proteins for people who could not afford them otherwise.

Then, there is the fact that there is dearth of natural predators for deers and rabbits and the like, at least in Europe.

 

[MaryG12]

I don't think I can wade into this conversation but I do have a vignette.

I spent some time in Alaska. The highlight of the days were radio-- Alaska Bush Radio. In Alaska, one can sign up for picking up roadkill to dress for consumption. People get an allotted mileage (say mile marker 50 to 59) and when an animal is hit and killed by a truck or car, the highway people or LEO call the person to let them know that they need to come to mile marker X to pick up the carcass. I thought it was ingenious and, evidently, it was a beloved way to honor the animal and harvest the meat.

Why tell this story? I don't know. I guess reading all of the hunting stuff inspired me. Back to gun control lurking for me.

http://www.newsminer.com/news/local...cle_f571c131-bb54-566d-afd6-41359a8d1afc.html interesting story

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/art...l-moose-retrieval-renewed-expands/2012/01/29/

Where I live in FL, turkey vultures usually take care of the roadkill.

Nothing like seeing a group of turkey vultures dining on a roadkill feral adult hog. Once saw that by River Rd in Venice. But there are feral hogs in that area, right by Jelks Preserve. During our first visit to that preserve I saw a feral hog tusk laying on the ground and thought, 'What on earth?!...' It's a very pretty area, right on the Myakka River.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=40&v=oaa3f4gfs3o

 

[flourish]

Maybe this will be a strange comparison but.... When I discovered the "undo" function in Word I was very happy - it saved a lot of time. Then one day I dropped a glass (which killed it dead). And found myself raising my mouse hand in order to find the "undo" icon. So, video games where you kill people who resuscitate when you start again may have a share of responsibility in mass murders imo.

Hmm. I understand the habit... I maybe have paused while handwriting something, waiting for the red squiggly line to tell me I'd misspelled a word.

Your mouse hand had some muscle memory going on, but many video games use controllers that don't look like the thing it's representing. Some do, which is how I just KNOW if given the chance I'd totally ROCK "Helter Skelter" on a real guitar, because I'm really good at it on "Rock Band Beatles." But, alas, the controller is only shaped like a guitar, and is not actually using the same muscles and fine motor skills as a guitar, so it's not generalizable like that.

I'm of the belief that media of any kind (books, movies, music, TV, video games) can't cause a person to do something they wouldn't otherwise do. Media likely contributes to other aspects of life and a person, like a predisposition or a mental illness.

In short, I can see media being a factor, but not an outright cause, for violent behavior.

I've mentioned it before, but has anyone here read the book, "The Neon Bible," which was published posthumously? It's not about a school shooting, but violence by youths. It's a quick read and it was written in the fifties, but offers a surprisingly modern perspective.

Anyway, blah blah blah

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

OT

rsbm

*raises hand

It’s one of three books I’m reading right meow, thanks to your suggestion!

(Can we start a WS book club thread?!?)

I've mentioned it before, but has anyone here read the book, "The Neon Bible," which was published posthumously? It's not about a school shooting, but violence by youths. It's a quick read and it was written in the fifties, but offers a surprisingly modern perspective.

Anyway, blah blah blah