Gun Control Debate #3

[BayouBelle_LA]

Well as much as I would love to know the statistics on poor people hunting food for their families, I can see this is another topic with many closed minded posters. I guess if it was one of their family members shot in a school shooting they may be more interested in finding ways to keep military grade guns and ammo out of the hands of bad guys.

rbbm

That sentiment is mutual.

 

[bluesneakers]

Well as much as I would love to know the statistics on poor people hunting food for their families, I can see this is another topic with many closed minded posters. I guess if it was one of their family members shot in a school shooting they may be more interested in finding ways to keep military grade guns and ammo out of the hands of bad guys.

I have to admit I'm curious too since so many people living below the poverty line live in cities. Tax-free ammo (must provide a copy of your 1040) to people in the country, extra SNAP benefits to people in cities?

 

[PrairieWind]

The fact that you used the word "ban" when that was not mentioned by the posters shows me that you are being argumentative.

What word should I have used? Isn't that what is being discussed? Banning AR rifles and/or certain types of ammo?

 

[PrairieWind]

I haven't seen anyone here suggest it. Sorry.

Lots of people here are saying that. The doctor that everyone refers to is saying that wounds from an AR are so much worse than from other firearms. There seems to be much disucssion of banning AR rifles.

 

[smeck]

What word should I have used? Isn't that what is being discussed? Banning AR rifles and/or certain types of ammo?

Well I can only speak for myself but I NEVER suggested banning AR rifles. Do you have suggestions to reduce the number of shootings in schools???

 

[smeck]

rbbm

That sentiment is mutual.

Do YOU have any suggestions for reducing the number of school shootings in the US?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I haven't seen anyone make the arguments you're claiming.

I've seen the point repeatedly made that an AR-15 rifle is far more powerful than a pistol or handgun.

I've also seen the point repeatedly made that the higher capacity of AR-15 makes them more deadly than a bolt-action rifle with the same size ammo.

I know, as a fact, we've both discussed these topics with each other, saying as much, in this very thread.

Twisting words and misrepresenting statements, especially when discussing facts we all otherwise agree on, imo, just destroys the credibility and strength of all of your opinions and assertions.

But that’s exactly what some people here are suggesting by saying that an AR-15 is way more dangerous than any other gun just because of the damage the bullet does to a person’s body. A bolt action rifle that uses the same exact 223 Remington cartridge will do the exact same damage as an AR-15. There’s nothing special about an AR-15 other than the high rate of fire.

 

[PrairieWind]

Well I can only speak for myself but I NEVER suggested banning AR rifles. Do you have suggestions to reduce the number of shootings in schools???

Better security at schools, that is actually followed. After shootings security seems to improve, only one entrance, etc. But after a few months, it is lax again. I am in favor of allowing teachers or admin to be trained and carry a firearm. I want to see better background checks, states required to report offenses and better reporting of mentally unstable individuals to the data base. I want improved mental health services in the counrty. I want to see better domestic violence laws. My state includes bf/gf and all family members in domestic violence law and was stunned to see other states are very limited in that. I want to see better probation follow up of felons to ensure they are not possessing or have easy access to firearms.

 

[smeck]

Better security at schools, that is actually followed. After shootings security seems to improve, only one entrance, etc. But after a few months, it is lax again. I am in favor of allowing teachers or admin to be trained and carry a firearm. I want to see better background checks, states required to report offenses and better reporting of mentally unstable individuals to the data base. I want improved mental health services in the counrty. I want to see better domestic violence laws. My state includes bf/gf and all family members in domestic violence law and was stunned to see other states are very limited in that. I want to see better probation follow up of felons to ensure they are not possessing or have easy access to firearms.

Thank you so much for responding to my question. I appreciate hearing your take on it.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Better security at schools, that is actually followed. After shootings security seems to improve, only one entrance, etc. But after a few months, it is lax again. I am in favor of allowing teachers or admin to be trained and carry a firearm. I want to see better background checks, states required to report offenses and better reporting of mentally unstable individuals to the data base. I want improved mental health services in the counrty. I want to see better domestic violence laws. My state includes bf/gf and all family members in domestic violence law and was stunned to see other states are very limited in that. I want to see better probation follow up of felons to ensure they are not possessing or have easy access to firearms.

Agreed. This is exactly what quite a few posters have been writing here in this thread.

 

[bobcat]

Here’s what I guess some don’t get. You want AR-15’s banned because of their high capacity and high rate of fire. Many also want handguns banned or tightly restricted due to their concealability and the fact that handguns are the gun of choice for criminals.Then we have people talking about AR-15’s also being extraordinarily dangerous due to the damage a bullet fired from one will do, and that they’re not needed and not necessary for the average person. Then, we who own and use guns, see that reasoning as the next step to banning, or at least restricting, ALL guns. Such as the very common deer rifles that many people own. What if I told you with my deer rifle I’m capable of easily hitting a target at 1/4 mile. Do you think that capability is “needed?” Maybe deer rifles need to be banned because someone could shoot a whole lot of people a quarter mile away. Some people are capable of even further, like up to a half mile or more. Don’t you see where that this discussion is going that way, to the point of banning ALL guns?

 

[rsd1200]

(Somewhat O/T): Hey there rsd.....not to get too far off our gun debate but yet sticking with the topic of felonies and guns, I take pause with your assertion that this embezzling woman-wife of an LEO should get her gun rights back.
I say no.
She committed a serious crime (does she have to pay back the $$$ to the person she embezzled from—I truly don’t know and I don’t know how victimized they felt or if they lost their business because of her actions?). She committed a serious unlawful crime. Every time she took monies it was wrong and she knew it....and it makes one wonder if there’s a mental issue going on like Anti-Social Personality Disorder? There’s a distinct legal reason why she was charged a felony for embezzling and not charged with simple theft or a misdemeanor.

Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. For this reason, employers in her future will be hard-pressed to give her a job anywhere near a cash register or keeping the books. Additionally, it is **possible** that she has a past criminal record & similar reckless behavior history that may be found with a little digging. Does she have either a drug or gambling problem? There’s a need of some sort as to why she was embezzling which seems justifiable **only to her**. She knew it was wrong but she did it anyway & disregarded the law. She likely embarrassed her LEO husband & family too. In general, common sentiment is that it’s likely that a criminal has gotten away with crimes before they were ever caught, unless you’re unlucky.

The point being is this: we need to get guns off the streets from criminals. The jumping point is **felons**. They lose their rights to own a gun. They have taken actions that are clearly unlawful. They are determined to have utilized significantly bad judgement. They have imposed a risk to law-abiding society.

Preventing felons from legally owning guns is current law and is correct, IMO.. Serious and long term jail sentences for crimes committed by felons with (illegal) guns needs to be more strictly enforced.

All moo

I'm all for violent felons losing that right permanently. However, I'm sure that she is still living in a home with a firearm. I'm not afraid of the local embezzler, who'd never had a prior charge. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust most cops with firearms, (I read the news...), but what she did, was not violent. They were apparently having financial difficulties and she made a bad decision. Our goal is to take firearms out of the hands of violent offenders. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

My friend, was shot, in the face, in town, in front of God and everybody. He was unarmed, alone, and had pulled in up town to park. Everyone saw the other man get up, walk out to his vehicle, get a firearm out, walk to my friend's vehicle, and shoot him through his window. It was all over an unmarried female they'd both been seeing. The other man has money. Guess who never spent a day in jail? Not one day. Still has all their firearms too. The system is rigged. My friend almost died, but the penny ante embezzler can't carry a firearm.

 

[bluesneakers]

Here’s what I guess some don’t get. You want AR-15’s banned because of their high capacity and high rate of fire. Many also want handguns banned or tightly restricted. Then we have people talking about AR-15’s also being extraordinarily dangerous due to the damage a bullet fired from one will do, and that they’re not needed and not necessary for the average person. Then, we who own and use guns, see that reasoning as the next step to banning, or at least restricting, ALL guns. Such as the very common deer rifles that many people own. What if I told you with my deer rifle I’m capable of easily hitting a target at 1/4 mile. Do you think that capability is “needed?” Maybe deer rifles need to be banned because someone could shoot a whole lot of people 1 a quarter mile away. Don’t you see where that this discussion is going that way?

I see a slippery slope fallacy supporting an argument that does nothing to help reduce mass shootings and firearm deaths. For a debate to make progress arguments need to follow the rules of logic. Otherwise it goes in circles until it hits a wall.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DO NOT WANT TO BAN ALL GUNS

They want common-sense reform. Americans want and have a right to own and use firearms.

I'll say this again: This isn't a conspiracy thread.

But you're obviously entitled to believe whatever you want, regardless.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/02/5898...-of-americans-who-want-gun-restrictions-grows

Here’s what I guess some don’t get. You want AR-15’s banned because of their high capacity and high rate of fire. Many also want handguns banned or tightly restricted due to their concealability and the fact that handguns are the gun of choice for criminals.Then we have people talking about AR-15’s also being extraordinarily dangerous due to the damage a bullet fired from one will do, and that they’re not needed and not necessary for the average person. Then, we who own and use guns, see that reasoning as the next step to banning, or at least restricting, ALL guns. Such as the very common deer rifles that many people own. What if I told you with my deer rifle I’m capable of easily hitting a target at 1/4 mile. Do you think that capability is “needed?” Maybe deer rifles need to be banned because someone could shoot a whole lot of people 1 a quarter mile away. Don’t you see where that this discussion is going that way?

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Trust me, a felony embezzlement crime is NOT a “penny ante”. It had to be significant and/or past history of like crimes.
Lesser crimes that could have been charges were theft or a misdemeanor.
I’ve made that clear previously.

Felons can’t legally obtain guns. Period.
We want stricter gun controls in general, right?
I know I do.

Moo

 

[southernmimi]

The majority of gun owners..yes IMO, don't own them for the purpose of harming others. To me, when someone murders or does bodily harm through use of a gun, they are either under the influence, mentally ill or just plain evil. Someone with intent will use any means available to cause harm...not just a gun. I think there is a larger and much broader issue.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Do YOU have any suggestions for reducing the number of school shootings in the US?

1. I would like to see the criminal background check system improved. Federal agencies or any others responsible for updating the system should have some penalty for failing to update. I want to see more prosecution of those lying on the federal criminal background check form with fines and jail time as stated on the form. Only an average of 32 people per year are ever considered for prosecution.

2. Arming teachers and security guards would be proactive. I'm not talking about just any teacher but those that volunteer and undergo psychological exams and training specifically designed for schools. I think this would at the very least give an opportunity to take out a threat. Shore up the schools with metal detectors especially in higher crime areas. I don't like the gun free zone signs at school. How many people would be willing to put a gun free sign on their lawns.

3. I think implementing red flag laws might be a good idea. I don't know exactly how this would work but I think a judge could have a gun removed at least temporarily from those that pose a threat to themselves or others. I think this would have worked in the case of the Florida shooter.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

As it just so happens, though, guns are the deadliest portion of the much larger and broader equation. Panning out for a broader look won't lessen the role of guns in violence.

MOO

The majority of gun owners..yes IMO, don't own them for the purpose of harming others. To me, when someone murders or does bodily harm through use of a gun, they are either under the influence, mentally ill or just plain evil. Someone with intent will use any means available to cause harm...not just a gun. I think there is a larger and much broader issue.

 

[Elley Mae]

The majority of gun owners..yes IMO, don't own them for the purpose of harming others. To me, when someone murders or does bodily harm through use of a gun, they are either under the influence, mentally ill or just plain evil. Someone with intent will use any means available to cause harm...not just a gun. I think there is a larger and much broader issue.

Absolutely.

 

[smeck]

1. I would like to see the criminal background check system improved. Federal agencies or any others responsible for updating the system should have some penalty for failing to update. I want to see more prosecution of those lying on the federal criminal background check form with fines and jail time as stated on the form. Only an average of 32 people per year are ever considered for prosecution.

2. Arming teachers and security guards would be proactive. I'm not talking about just any teacher but those that volunteer and undergo psychological exams and training specifically designed for schools. I think this would at the very least give an opportunity to take out a threat. Shore up the schools with metal detectors especially in higher crime areas. I don't like the gun free zone signs at school. How many people would be willing to put a gun free sign on their lawns.

3. I think implementing red flag laws might be a good idea. I don't know exactly how this would work but I think a judge could have a gun removed at least temporarily from those that pose a threat to themselves or others. I think this would have worked in the case of the Florida shooter.

Thank You for your response! It’s interesting and informative to hear your thoughts.