GZ Case - Defense Perspective

[elementary]

Based on the bold, you are agreeing with my statement.

Heh. You could be right. But fear is often not expressible. I think it is just fear, a gut response, feeling unsafe, and that feeling is eminently valid. Regardless, so what? Fact is, there is fear when you find someone is following or in this case, IMO, pursuing you (I would be terrified). I was responding to that part of the post as well where it was asserted that following someone is no reason to fear. I said of course, it is natural to fear. This, you have not addressed.

And I implied if that is paranoia, then what does it say about people who carry guns-are they paranoid too because they fear for their lives (or else why carry a gun?) Like, does this mean if someone is following you and you have a gun is it okay to use the gun? But if following you doesn't make you fear or fear for your life then why have a gun at all? I am Canadian and therefore confuzzled. :waitasec:

 

[HiHater]

To make a determination that they are following without asking, you would have to be psychic - and I don't believe in that. That is my point. If I am free to think whatever I want without justification I can pull my weapon on someone I think is following me, simply because people here have stated they would feel their life is in danger, and pull the trigger. It's NOT justified. There is no ex-post-facto after someone's dead. You can't change it. At the time Mr. Martin -correctly- thought that Mr. Zimmerman -was- following him, this does not mean that Mr. Martin could have just as easily made the WRONG assumption. Either way, just because you think someone is following you does not justify ANY use of force.

Does it justify being cautious, keeping your distance and asking why they're following you? Sure. Can you tell me what didn't happen in this scenario?

We'll just agree to disagree.

It's about CONTEXT. Leave it at that.

 

[deelytful1]

Here it's not. Around here if you find a job making $0.50 more than minimum wage without a HSD you're in heaven.

As for the defense perspective. I wonder if that report of the autopsy is complete. Does it have toxicology and all that jazz? Is the reporter -sure- there isn't a wound on the hand from grabbing the weapon when it was being discharged (causing the slide to malfunction and not load another round)?

Wow.. around there must be in the 5% minority then

According to the GED Testing Service, www.acenet.edu, 'More than 95 percent of U.S. employers consider GED graduates the same as traditional high school graduates in regard to hiring, salary and opportunity for advancement.' Although that statistic may surprise some, the GED is highly respected for its seven 1/2 hour battery of tests that require focus and intelligence to complete.

In fact, because of the preparation and dedication the test requires, many employers regard the GED as a test of success in an applicant's career. For instance, General Motors is just one of the companies that regards the GED and a high school diploma equally, as no job performance is directly related to specific technical curriculum knowledge from high school.

http://diplomaguide.com/articles/How_Does_the_GED_Compare_to_a_High_School_Diploma?.html

 

[HiHater]

How did Trayvon not know George might be lost? For all he knew, GZ was trying to find a certain condo, very common in communities like that. TM is the one who was circling the truck and the one who took off running, not GZ. What if GZ was getting out of his truck just to find a street address. Would TM have a right to sneak out of nowhere and and ask GZ what his effing problem is, or why he's following him, did GZ being on a sidewalk in a community where he pays rent give TM the right to bust his nose and black his eyes? I can see this happening if TM was up to something, which he could have been, we don't know. That or TM was being paranoid.

Lots of people walk up and down those sidewalks, many are AA, I just can't see a kid walking and talking to his girlfriend looking suspicious and as if he is "on drugs" for no reason.

I hope O'Mara is looking into the jewelry and the 3 burglaries in September 2011 - I wonder if TM was visiting Sanford at the time.

JMO

Just...wow. LOL

 

[AJ Noiter]

Heh. You could be right. But fear is often not expressible. I think it is just fear, a gut response, feeling unsafe, and valid. Regardless, so what? Fact is, there is fear when you find someone is following or in this case, IMO, pursuing you (I would be terrified). I was responding to that part of the post as well where it was asserted that following someone is no reason to fear. I said of course, it is natural to fear. This, you have not addressed.

We were discussing the SYG law. Based on the words IN the law, which state that you must have a "fear" for your life or a "fear" of great bodily harm, you agreed with me that fearing for your life was unjustified in the given scenario that someone is following you. Would you be scared? Possibly, I won't speak for you. Would I be scared? No. People follow me all the time because of how I look and I refuse to change how I look for those people who choose to judge without knowing me. I simply don't care what they think of me, I will continue to live my life the way I am.

And I implied if that is paranoia, then what does it say about people who carry guns-are they paranoid too because they fear for their lives (or else why carry a gun?) Like, does this mean if someone is following you and you have a gun is it okay to use the gun? But if following you doesn't make you fear or fear for your life then why have a gun at all? I am Canadian and therefore confuzzled. :waitasec:

I carry a gun and I am not paranoid. Are you paranoid because you lock your car doors at night? Are you paranoid because you lock the door to your house at night or when you leave? These are all mechanism of being prepared in case of an attack of various types and do not state anything about being paranoid of anything.

 

[elementary]

Here it's not. Around here if you find a job making $0.50 more than minimum wage without a HSD you're in heaven.

As for the defense perspective. I wonder if that report of the autopsy is complete. Does it have toxicology and all that jazz? Is the reporter -sure- there isn't a wound on the hand from grabbing the weapon when it was being discharged (causing the slide to malfunction and not load another round)?

There's a scratch on his left hand and we don't know if it was his dominant hand. I agree that we need to wait for the official report. But I find it interesting that this report seems to have been 'leaked' and that something like what you are suggesting wasn't included. Hmm, I guess it wasn''t MOM leaking after all. Even though the 'leaks' didn't happen until discovery was handed over to the defence.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Wow.. around there must be in the 5% minority then



http://diplomaguide.com/articles/How_Does_the_GED_Compare_to_a_High_School_Diploma?.html

I've heard that 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot 75% of the time, but you do bring up a good point. I'll call my uncle tomorrow and ask if he participated in this "survey." I have a funny feeling it's just like the (tv) Neilson Ratings where only a small portion is polled, and that number is projected over the entire population.

 

[vlpate]

Heh. You could be right. But fear is often not expressible. I think it is just fear, a gut response, feeling unsafe, and that feeling is eminently valid. Regardless, so what? Fact is, there is fear when you find someone is following or in this case, IMO, pursuing you (I would be terrified). I was responding to that part of the post as well where it was asserted that following someone is no reason to fear. I said of course, it is natural to fear. This, you have not addressed.

And I implied if that is paranoia, then what does it say about people who carry guns-are they paranoid too because they fear for their lives (or else why carry a gun?) Like, does this mean if someone is following you and you have a gun is it okay to use the gun? But if following you doesn't make you fear or fear for your life then why have a gun at all? I am Canadian and therefore confuzzled. :waitasec:

I have a wonderful friend who lives in Victoria BC, I've been up to see her -very laid back and absolutely gorgeous. I have another friend in Nova Scotia - also very laid back,but I think that's because they are frozen - went in February lol. We don't really see eye to eye on guns or Octomom lol

 

[AJ Noiter]

There's a scratch on his left hand and we don't know if it was his dominant hand. I agree that we need to wait for the official report. But I find it interesting that this report seems to have been 'leaked' and that something like what you are suggesting wasn't included. Hmm, I guess it wasn''t MOM leaking after all. Even though the 'leaks' didn't happen until discovery was handed over to the defence.

I dare not venture into the speculation based upon a supposed leaked report that makes no mention of toxicology and other things that should be in the autopsy. I'll leave that for the other thread.

 

[elementary]

I dare not venture into the speculation based upon a supposed leaked report that makes no mention of toxicology and other things that should be in the autopsy. I'll leave that for the other thread.

Oh, okay, then we won't discuss your wondering if the report is whole and whether the supposed leak did not include a possible 'wound' on Trayvon's hand from grabbing the weapon, etc., etc.

I certainly do agree that it would be helpful to get the authentic report. STAT!

 

[AJ Noiter]

Oh, okay, then we won't discuss your wondering if the report is whole and whether the supposed leak did not include a possible 'wound' on Trayvon's hand from grabbing the weapon, etc., etc.

Sorry, I do admit that when I'm tired I only read a sentence or two before deciding to respond or move on. I only read your first sentence and I do apologize. I agree, it's extremely odd that nothing else that would typically be in such a report is mentioned.

 

[katydid23]

Sarcasm not necessary. Paranoia would be thinking you're being followed when you're not, but I think you know that.

If someone, who is a stranger to you, is following you---it would be reasonable to fear for your life and/or safety.

So if it is reasonable to fear for your life is someone is following you, is it also
reasonable to fear for your life if someone jumps on you?

 

[elementary]

We were discussing the SYG law. Based on the words IN the law, which state that you must have a "fear" for your life or a "fear" of great bodily harm, you agreed with me that fearing for your life was unjustified in the given scenario that someone is following you. Would you be scared? Possibly, I won't speak for you. Would I be scared? No. People follow me all the time because of how I look and I refuse to change how I look for those people who choose to judge without knowing me. I simply don't care what they think of me, I will continue to live my life the way I am.



I carry a gun and I am not paranoid. Are you paranoid because you lock your car doors at night? Are you paranoid because you lock the door to your house at night or when you leave? These are all mechanism of being prepared in case of an attack of various types and do not state anything about being paranoid of anything.

Okay. To me this like comparing apples and oranges. Locking my doors is just sensible; I imagine I worry about being robbed more than anything. I don't carry a gun. Why? I am not fearful of my environment, fearful for my life. If I were, I would carry a gun, I have no problem with it. But it is because I would fear. For my life. And in that kind of environment I might not be paranoid but I would definitely be hypervigilant to the point that it would seem normal and sensible.

Just because you wouldn't be scared suggests to me that either you carry a gun or you live in a hostile world that is the norm. In a regular world, IMO, one fears being followed, or pursued. It is human nature, a gut response. It really doesn't matter what you say. This is not opinion. This is how human beings normally feel and react.

As for stating about how you look, Trayvon had a hoodie, put it up against the rain. And look where that got him. And he was just a kid.

I did not agree that fearing for your life was unjustified in Trayvon's scenario. I said that fear was valid because Trayvon was being followed (IMO, pursued).

 

[elementary]

How did Trayvon not know George might be lost? For all he knew, GZ was trying to find a certain condo, very common in communities like that. TM is the one who was circling the truck and the one who took off running, not GZ. What if GZ was getting out of his truck just to find a street address. Would TM have a right to sneak out of nowhere and and ask GZ what his effing problem is, or why he's following him, did GZ being on a sidewalk in a community where he pays rent give TM the right to bust his nose and black his eyes? I can see this happening if TM was up to something, which he could have been, we don't know. That or TM was being paranoid.

Lots of people walk up and down those sidewalks, many are AA, I just can't see a kid walking and talking to his girlfriend looking suspicious and as if he is "on drugs" for no reason.

I hope O'Mara is looking into the jewelry and the 3 burglaries in September 2011 - I wonder if TM was visiting Sanford at the time.

JMO

<modsnip> Trayvon was not only a victim, but a minor. And what does his past have to do with the fact that he was walking back from the store? <modsnip>

 

[vlpate]

<modsnip> Trayvon was not only a victim, but a minor. And what does his past have to do with the fact that he was walking back from the store? <modsnip> [/B]

<Modsnip> TIA. His past has to do with why he seemed suspicious, why did he seem to be on drugs, why was he looking around at houses - and how close to the houses was he? Why did he take off running and end up back in the same spot. I don't know how any of this is vicious - once the prosecution starts painting the angry bouncer picture, this is going to come up - as it should in a self defense case.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Okay. To me this like comparing apples and oranges. Locking my doors is just sensible; I imagine I worry about being robbed more than anything. I don't carry a gun. Why? I am not fearful of my environment, fearful for my life. If I were, I would carry a gun, I have no problem with it. But it is because I would fear. And in that kind of environment I might not be paranoid but I would definitely be hypervigilant to the point that it would seem normal and sensible.

Just because you wouldn't be scared suggests to me that either you carry a gun or you live in a hostile world that is the norm. In a regular world, IMO, one fears being followed, or pursued. It is human nature, a gut response. It really doesn't matter what you say. This is not opinion. This is how human beings normally feel and react.

As for stating about how you look, Trayvon had a hoodie, put it up against the rain. And look where that got him?

I did not agree that fearing for your life was unjustified in Trayvon's scenario. I said that fear was valid because Trayvon was being followed (IMO, pursued).

Locking your door in case someone wants to break into your house is sensible, but being prepared by carrying a weapon in case someone decides they want to take your life isn't? You can replace everything in your house, you can't replace your life. I am not fearful of my environment, in fact I'm more confident in my environment than probably most people because I have planned and prepared for various things.

 

[elementary]

Locking your door in case someone wants to break into your house is sensible, but being prepared by carrying a weapon in case someone decides they want to take your life isn't? You can replace everything in your house, you can't replace your life. I am not fearful of my environment, in fact I'm more confident in my environment than probably most people because I have planned and prepared for various things.

I don't disagree. It is sensible to carry a gun when you fear for your life. That is the difference, perhaps, between you and me. I don't fear for my life. But it is also sensible to fear when you are being followed. And I imagine that in your environment, to carry a gun. How hostile was Trayvon's environment? GZ carried a gun. Perhaps Trayvon should have as well. And then he wouldn't have been afraid. Like GZ wasn't afraid because he was sensible and carried a gun. Maybe the two of them could have had a duel. Can you imagine the carnage? Like Trayvon wasn't enough carnage?

Fact is, I don't think that GZ was sensible like you (I'm guessing here). I think he was paranoid. It explains why he pursued Trayvon when he could have just stayed in his truck and waited for the cops. Certainly, I imagine carrying a gun makes one less afraid. While Trayvon didn't have a gun and had more to fear.

 

[AJ Noiter]

I don't disagree. It is sensible to carry a gun when you fear for your life. That is the difference, perhaps, between you and me. I don't fear for my life. But it is also sensible to fear when you are being followed. And I imagine that in your environment, to carry a gun. How hostile was Trayvon's environment? GZ carried a gun. Perhaps Trayvon should have as well. And then he wouldn't have been afraid. Like GZ wasn't afraid because he was sensible and carried a gun. Maybe the two of them could have had a duel. Can you imagine the carnage? Like Trayvon wasn't enough carnage?

Fact is, I don't think that GZ was sensible like you (I'm guessing here). I think he was paranoid. It explains why he pursued Trayvon when he could have just stayed in his truck and waited for the cops. Certainly, I imagine carrying a gun makes one less afraid. And Trayvon didn't have gun.

Mr. Zimmerman carried a weapon because of a dog, not because of other humans.

 

[lisalei321]

Mr. Zimmerman carried a weapon because of a dog, not because of other humans.

But, by his own admission, he shot a human, a teenager on his way home from the store, not a dog.

 

[LambChop]

Well let's see what do we know. We know GZ shot TM. We know GZ tracked him down. We know TM was hiding and did not double back because GZ admits walking down the cut through sidewalk and not seeing TM. If TM had kept running GZ would have seen him and heard him running. We know GZ got to Retreat View and walked back to get to his car by the timeline and while he was still on the phone with LE. We know GZ then doubled back and found TM. We know that the two were seen running towards where TM's body was found and GZ never admitted to running away from TM so GZ had to have been chasing TM yards away from where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM. We know GZ's goal was to not let TM get away. Given that TM had no injuries of a fight but GZ did. Could it be GZ that was fighting to hold onto TM and TM was trying to get away. GZ's injuries could be consistent with someone falling backwards and having someone fall on top of him. But to me it now looks more likely that TM really was trying to get away from GZ which is what he was doing from the time he passed the clubhouse.

GZ had a goal to keep TM from getting away which is obvious because he tried to follow TM. TM was on his way home and on the phone with his girlfriend. Hardly someone looking for a fight. I think defense will have a hard time with GZ. GZ's past record of violence is far greater than TM's boyish pranks. And with the neighbor's comment "he was mad as he!! and just couldn't take it any more", well that says a lot doesn't it about what his friend felt about GZ attitude that night. jmo