GZ Case - Defense Perspective

[vlpate]

I don't think part 2 is such a hurdle. Yes, the DA could argue racial animus on GZ's part, but it would be a lot easier to argue that GZ was angry that "the a--holes always get away." Easier because they have GZ' own words on tape.

IIRC, and I'd have to pull it up, but didn't Gilbreath say he was "criminally" profiling when questioned by MO'M @ bond hearing?

 

[Nova]

IIRC, and I'd have to pull it up, but didn't Gilbreath say he was "criminally" profiling when questioned by MO'M @ bond hearing?

IIRC, the probable cause affidavit alleges GZ "profiled" TM, but doesn't use the word "criminal".

Profiling per se isn't illegal for a private citizen, so we have all been speculating as to where the SA is going with that claim. Frankly, I don't know.

 

[LambChop]

I believe they are the same. "Depraved indifference" is the term in California (among some other states), so we hear it a lot in TV shows and films. But it means the same thing: that the killer committed an act s/he should have known was likely to cause the death of another (but without forming a conscious intent to cause that death). Personally, I think the word "indifference" is helpful to laypeople, but maybe that's just me.

Neither term has anything to do with "depravity" as we use it outside the courtroom, as I'm sure you know.

CORRECTION: the requirement in California is actually phrased "malice aforethought", but means the same thing. I can tell you from experience that the legal term "malice" is really a stumbling block for some jurors.

According to the following site, "depraved indifference" is New York's way of expressing the same concept:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depraved-indifference/

I was thinking in terms of the difference between "mind" and "indifference". Mind being something long term and indifference being a spur of the moment type of thing. I really think he got caught up in the moment of "not letting this one get away" and just used extremely poor judgment. jmo

 

[LambChop]

I don't know that I would open my window to someone staring at me and circling my car to ask them if they belong there. Someone who belongs there would be on their way to the house.


Probably 99% of the people and cars he saw walking the mile to, and the mile back from the store fit that description, so why circle GZ's?

There's no history to support this. In the calls he made to LE to report suspicious males within the community he never once tried to take the law into his own hands...in fact, he wanted to remain anonymous.

JMO

Brought over from injury thread.

In 2005 according to the police report of 911 calls placed by GZ he was following a car, pursuing them on the highway trying to catch up with them while on the phone with LE. 46 calls to 911 with his name is not anonymous. lol

 

[vlpate]

I was not aware of this, shows what I get for distrusting media to the point of not even looking at it. Thanks!

You probably have a life lol. I actually only found this a few days ago and then back-tracked to the mother's statement. Veddy interesting....

 

[i.b.nora]

snipped
And yet, 10 days later, he tells Guttman the same thing:

Who exactly made the video? I understand it was posted by Todd Feinburg, a WRKO talk radio host in Boston. Its on his blog as well, and there is no further identification of where it came from.
So, where was that video made and where was it originally televised, and who was the interviewer? And why are videos of minors being posted on the internet, anyhow? What legitimate news agency would do that?

 

[vlpate]

I was looking back at the bond hearing stills, had a thought - look at the difference in height between MO'M and GZ.

MO'M at least 6' tall
TM was 6'3" 160
GZ is 5'8" 185

IMO, if someone that tall was on top of you, the difference of 15 lbs and 7 inches would put you at quite the disadvantage. It would also likely make GZ think TM was older than 17 - that's an unusual height for a teenager, IMO.

So, imagine MO'M 3 inches taller...

 

[Phoenixfla]

There is also the 13 yr. old boy who was walking his dog that said he saw someone in red on the ground screaming, alone. His mother says the police tried to trip him up on the color of the shirt, but as you can clearly see, he says the same thing, that the shirt was red, in his own words even after his mother makes her statement to media.

March 15
"That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old <modsnip> stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt

 

[LambChop]

I was not aware of this, shows what I get for distrusting media to the point of not even looking at it. Thanks!

I don't think there are many who feel TM was not on top. And I think we will find from balistics that he was. The issue is who started the fight. Just because TM was on top is not proof he started the fight. There is this saying down south....."someone has to be the down dog". I feel GZ clearly did not want TM to get away. GZ's car was right at the cut through and any attempt for TM to leave and go home GZ viewed as TM trying to "escape". My guess is TM had no idea what GZ was up to since he never identified himself when he had a full opportunity to do so. I think GZ has issues with seeing himself above everyone else so there is no need to explain his actions to anyone he confronts, you should know and answer his questions post-haste.

Think about it. You are walking home in the rain. Someone is watching you from their car on the phone. You want to run but you're not sure what this guy is up to. You finally lose him as you walk down the cut through and onto the sidewalk. All of a sudden he is there again only on foot so you know he is following you and you ask the most reasonable question...."why are you following me?" Does he answer by telling you he is with the NWP? No, he proceeds to ask you a question...."what are you doing here?" and we are assuming he's walking towards TM because the GF said she heard a scuffling noise and the phone went dead. Could it be that TM turned to run and that's why there was the scuffling noise. A witness said she saw two figures running past her house before the fight towards the location where the body was found.

It is much more believable that GZ tried to detain TM than TM jumped GZ out of spite. The phone call with his gf would back that up and the inconsistent statements from GZ will probably back that up as well. We just have to wait and see. jmo

 

[vlpate]

Your link to a wikipedia entry is to someone named Mark O'Meara, a professional golfer.

Yep, you are right, I was looking for another link. Obviously, he is at least 6' - 6'2" tall, 5-6 inches taller than Zimmerman. It's just a visual, so the point still stand, GZ would be at a disadvantage if he had tried to detain TM. JMO

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20586892,00.html

Above article from People - Trayvon 6'3"

 

[vlpate]

Who exactly made the video? I understand it was posted by Todd Feinburg, a WRKO talk radio host in Boston. Its on his blog as well, and there is no further identification of where it came from.
So, where was that video made and where was it originally televised, and who was the interviewer? And why are videos of minors being posted on the internet, anyhow? What legitimate news agency would do that?

I can't answer all your questions, but the interviewer is Matt Guttman, as I wrote. The child has been in two other MSM interviews, which can be found on youtube. No one is sleuthing this minor. If you believe it is posted against TOS, please alert. TIA

 

[vlpate]

Wow, he is a professional golfer too? He IS talented.

lol shup. He probably is, aren't all lawyers? I can't really judge height, but he looks to be at least 6' - 6'1"....how tall is the human head?

I just read that the average human head can be anywhere from 17 to 22 cent, which is 7 - 9 inches. So maybe MO'M is 6'3" as well. Women can't determine length in inches, like men can't ask or directions, well known fact

 

[i.b.nora]

I can't answer all your questions, but the interviewer is Matt Guttman, as I wrote. The child has been in two other MSM interviews, which can be found on youtube. No one is sleuthing this minor. If you believe it is posted against TOS, please alert. TIA

Well, actually, what you wrote was, "And yet, 10 days later, he tells Guttman the same thing:" so, all I was asking was who was Guttman? Now, I see that Matt Guttman is a reporter for ABC. I personally, have not seen any of the Good Morning America broadcasts regarding this case, and I have not been previously familiar with Matt Guttman. Thank you for answering my question.

As far as the rest goes, I was questioning why MSM or whoever that video belongs to was interviewing and identifyiing minors. And, sometimes when I see minors identified here at WS, I do alert on the post/s.

 

[vlpate]

I don't think there are many who feel TM was not on top. And I think we will find from balistics that he was. The issue is who started the fight. Just because TM was on top is not proof he started the fight. There is this saying down south....."someone has to be the down dog". I feel GZ clearly did not want TM to get away. GZ's car was right at the cut through and any attempt for TM to leave and go home GZ viewed as TM trying to "escape". My guess is TM had no idea what GZ was up to since he never identified himself when he had a full opportunity to do so. I think GZ has issues with seeing himself above everyone else so there is no need to explain his actions to anyone he confronts, you should know and answer his questions post-haste.

Think about it. You are walking home in the rain. Someone is watching you from their car on the phone. You want to run but you're not sure what this guy is up to. You finally lose him as you walk down the cut through and onto the sidewalk. All of a sudden he is there again only on foot so you know he is following you and you ask the most reasonable question...."why are you following me?" Does he answer by telling you he is with the NWP? No, he proceeds to ask you a question...."what are you doing here?" and we are assuming he's walking towards TM because the GF said she heard a scuffling noise and the phone went dead. Could it be that TM turned to run and that's why there was the scuffling noise. A witness said she saw two figures running past her house before the fight towards the location where the body was found.

It is much more believable that GZ tried to detain TM than TM jumped GZ out of spite. The phone call with his gf would back that up and the inconsistent statements from GZ will probably back that up as well. We just have to wait and see. jmo

You make great points, but I have a problem with timing. If TM took off running, and was not in sight for two minutes, then if GZ took off running after hanging up the phone, why did they end up where TM's body was found? He couldn't have followed him far and TM couldn't have run far. How does one resolve this?

 

[LambChop]

You make great points, but I have a problem with timing. If TM took off running, and was not in sight for two minutes, then if GZ took off running after hanging up the phone, why did they end up where TM's body was found? He couldn't have followed him far and TM couldn't have run far. How does one resolve this?

Did you see Papa's chart? I guess we will soon know. jmo

 

[vlpate]

Well, actually, what you wrote was, "And yet, 10 days later, he tells Guttman the same thing:" so, all I was asking was who was Guttman? Now, I see that Matt Guttman is a reporter for ABC. I personally, have not seen any of the Good Morning America broadcasts regarding this case, and I have not been previously familiar with Matt Guttman. Thank you for answering my question.

As far as the rest goes, I was questioning why MSM or whoever that video belongs to was interviewing and identifyiing minors. And, sometimes when I see minors identified here at WS, I do alert on the post/s.

Right, I was quoting and didn't actually write the name out myself, I see now that we should redact the name from the MSM article. In this case, I believe his name is said in the report. I believe the mother's consent is all that is needed for him to be identified - in the case of the girlfriend, the mother did not want her identified. I can't post the mother's interview with her lawyer because the full name of the son shows up, but you can look it up if interested. She is with her lawyer and she says the police didn't call to interview her on, and when they did, she put them off for three days - she has her lawyer with her during the interview. :waitasec:

ETA: Had to take that one off too, full name displayed, grrrrr

It's odd that I can't find the Matt Guttman interview anywhere else, maybe it was taken earlier that 2/27. But where did it go??

 

[vlpate]

Did you see Papa's chart? I guess we will soon know. jmo

Even going by his charts, and him not knowing where the truck was exactly when GZ got out, it's still 70 yards from TM's home.

 

[LambChop]

Even going by his charts, and him not knowing where the truck was exactly when GZ got out, it's still 70 yards from TM's home.

Didn't he said he was at the cut through?

 

[Karmady]

Karmady, I was a juror in a 2nd degree murder case involving a one-on-one stabbing. If such charges are rare, I think it's because most prosecutors figure they can prove intent when somebody pulls a trigger or stabs with a knife, so they shoot for 1st degree.

But in "my" trial, the facts were similar to the Zimmerman/Martin case in that the killing occurred in the midst of a chaotic argument. I think (IANAL) the law recognizes that someone might use a weapon during such chaos without actually forming an intent to kill.

grr...post lost in the ether.

I think what I said is that we are all correct lol

The NY case I was thinking of was People v. Gonzalez (don't ask how I got State v. Parker!). I linked it. Bottom line, without getting too mucked up in the subtleties, I think the standards are similar, if not identical. But since there was a Fla. case directly on point, I went with that case instead of the NY case.

I can't remember right at the moment whether it is Gonzalez or an even more recent NY case that points out that intentional murder (including intentional murder 2 - there is such a charge in NY, apparently) and depraved indifference murder 2 are mutually exclusive in NY. So, if this case were there, and George is found to have formed an intent to kill at any point prior to shooting, he would walk since he would not be guilty of depraved indifference and has not been charged with a specific intent crime.

As they say, "it's complicated"

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ny-court-of-appeals/1309102.html

 

[Karmady]

Interesting article from the media thread for those of you who, like me, may not usually check up there. Tracy Martin and his current estranged wife give more details about themselves, their relationships with Trayvon and what Tracy thought happened the night of the shooting.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-05/news/os-george-zimmerman-trayvon-father-20120505_1_martin-family-shooting-death-miami-gardens