GZ Case - Defense Perspective

[AJ Noiter]

Why would he lie to LE? He told them he had no address. And, you can hear him walking while he is talking. Then we would have to ask the question....he was clearly looking for TM and TM was not on Retreat View so why would he continue to talk to LE and stand in the rain at Retreat when he was asked by LE to meet the patrol officer at his vehicle???? jmo

While he's walking you can hear the wind on the 911 tape. When he stops, the wind stops. Listen to the 911 tape with that in mind. After it stops (when he's trying to find an address), does it start back up? Also, how would we know that he lied to law enforcement? I haven't seen a 1st hand account from Mr. Zimmerman, have you?

 

[Phoenixfla]

Chris, it sounds to me as if people believe that Trayvon had no rights and no option but to surrender to GZ; no matter what GZ and anyone who may have assisted GZ did, said or intimated (IMO GZ is just the type to flash the semi-automatic pistol hidden under the jacket.)

It seems some people believe that even if GZ forced TM up against a house in the breezeway, after cornering him in a dark area, and even man handled him that TM could not and was not supposed to defend himself. It is getting so ridiculous.

THE KID WAS UNARMED!

I have yet to see anyone here at WS state that they dont think TM had the same exact rights as GZ. I also have yet to see anyone state that IF GZ ATTACKED TM that TM "could not and was not supposed to defend himself".

Also, I originally set this thread up "Defense Perspective" to discuss the case from the perspective of the defense. If anyone finds it ridiculous that GZ may have been defending himself (I cant imagine how anyone can think that given his injuries, but whatever) they certainly dont have to frequent this particular thread.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Was he running away from GZ? Was he running do to 'fear'? How do we know this?

We don't really. We have the statements of Trayvon's GF's and Zimmerman.

I don't think so. I don't think if someone asks you a question, you immedietely have the right to respond with force. If TM was so afraid that he started running, why did he stop at some point? Why didn't he run straight to his house?

We will never know. Perhaps he felt that he had lost him. Perhaps he felt that his pursuer wouldn't want to leave his car and come after him on foot. Perhaps he didn't want to lead him to his home. It really doesn't matter.

It is important to keep in mind that Trayvon had no obligation to do anything at all. These questions only come up because Zimmerman made the decisions that he made.

But again, there is no proof this happened at this time. There is no proof or evidence that TM was running away from GZ.

If we accept that Trayvon did run, and this seems to be the case as this is what the defendant is claiming, it seems reasonable to conclude that he was running from Zimmerman. We know he wasn't running to get home or he would have made it there. We know as well that he was scared of the guy chasing him, and his GF urged him to run. It is POSSIBLE that none of that was a factor and something else was. Lacking any evidence of that, it seems foolish to speculate.

 

[Chris_Texas]

I think beach meant this part:

Doh!

:blushing:

 

[Chris_Texas]

This guy pursued someone who was unarmed (unless you consider a bag of radios as 'armed'). This guy had a knife and stabbed and killed the guy with the bag. He was found innocent via SYG in florida.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2717572/miami-dade-issues-ruling-in-stand.html

Yeah, there have apparently been a good number of crazy decisions to come out of this law. We will see what happens here.

 

[LambChop]

As per the Florida Stand Your Ground statute, Mr. Martin's duty WAS to retreat unless he felt a credible threat of serious bodily harm or death. Someone following you isn't a credible threat of either, if it were you'd think it would be illegal to follow someone.

Mr. Martin didn't have any duty.....he wasn't doing anything wrong. I'm sure he did not read up on the SYG law as obviously GZ did. We don't know where GZ found TM but clearly TM felt threatened or why ask the question???? It was not a social....hi, how ya doin, kind of question. He wanted to know why GZ was following him.....what was his problem? Because up to that moment before TM ran GZ had been following TM by car and had the opportunity to ask TM who he was while LE was on the phone. Why didn't he do it. Why??? It would have stopped a patrol officer from making that trip out there. What motivated him not to ask that question?????

And when you are scared of someone who is following you, you are not thinking about what the legal repercussions will be. You just want to get away from the threat. We don't know how GZ approached TM only that TM felt threatened. GZ could have been angry because TM ran from him and then hid from him and in GZ's mind was trying to pull a fast one over on him. That appears to be where GZ's mind was headed when he disregarded a direction from LE to not follow and stay with is car and wait for the officer. jmo

 

[Just K]

As per the Florida Stand Your Ground statute, Mr. Martin's duty WAS to retreat unless he felt a credible threat of serious bodily harm or death. Someone following you isn't a credible threat of either, if it were you'd think it would be illegal to follow someone.

Someone cornering, trapping or detaining another human being is illegal. We, so far, only have the words of a paranoid, gun totting, and possibly drugged vigilante. GZ's word is not something I would want to bet on.

 

[Omachka]

I have yet to see anyone here at WS state that they dont think TM had the same exact rights as GZ. I also have yet to see anyone state that IF GZ ATTACKED TM that TM "could not and was not supposed to defend himself".

Also, I originally set this thread up "Defense Perspective" to discuss the case from the perspective of the defense. If anyone finds it ridiculous that GZ may have been defending himself (I cant imagine how anyone can think that given his injuries, but whatever) they certainly dont have to frequent this particular thread.

I would like to very respectfully ask you if you are saying that those who disagree with certain perspectives here aren't welcome to discuss their opinions in this thread? If so, I absolutely hate that this case has so divided this forum. We don't even have the discovery yet so for the most part we are only going on opinions. If all opinions aren't welcome in this thread, what will be discussed here? I am honestly not trying to be disrespectful but am just trying to understand. If that's what you are saying, I will take your advice and stay off your thread because I do disagree that GZ was defending himself. :truce:

 

[LambChop]

While he's walking you can hear the wind on the 911 tape. When he stops, the wind stops. Listen to the 911 tape with that in mind. After it stops (when he's trying to find an address), does it start back up? Also, how would we know that he lied to law enforcement? I haven't seen a 1st hand account from Mr. Zimmerman, have you?

Mr. Gilbreath was under oath. I doubt he would lie about GZ's inconsistencies in his statements. Based on that information I feel safe to say his statements may not have been entirely truthful. jmo

 

[Chris_Texas]

If TM were frightened and had run home (which was nearby and not a great distance), he would not have crossed paths with GZ again.

True. The same can be said for an infinate number of variables. For example, had he not gone to the store, had GZ not gone to the store, had he never visited the complex, we could go on forever listing these things.

None of which negate what actually happened here.

IMO, a case can be made that TM ran to get out of GZ's sight with the intent to turn the tables on him. After all, GZ's story is that he was returning to his car when TM surprised him with a physical attack.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

The location of the crime does not seem to support this claim.

IMO etc

 

[Chris_Texas]

He was arrested and charged AFTER the witch hunt began. That's the whole point of a successful witch hunt. jmo

Allow me to add... He was INVESTIGATED, arrested, and charged after the "witch hunt" began. So it's probably a good thing we had this so-called witch hunt.

 

[Just K]

The very fact that Trayvon was on the phone at the exact moment that the two came face to face totally negates GZ being ambushed from behind. (Yet another of GZ's many stories...)

If the defense wants to argue that TM ambushed GZ on the "T" of the crossing sidewalks then they need to be prepared for the opposing questions that the prosecution must ask. The same applies to theories, opinions, ideas and arguments on these two threads. (What evidence Defense has and What evidence Prosecution has...)

ALL IMO, of course.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Mr. Martin didn't have any duty.....he wasn't doing anything wrong. I'm sure he did not read up on the SYG law as obviously GZ did. We don't know where GZ found TM but clearly TM felt threatened or why ask the question???? It was not a social....hi, how ya doin, kind of question. He wanted to know why GZ was following him.....what was his problem? Because up to that moment before TM ran GZ had been following TM by car and had the opportunity to ask TM who he was while LE was on the phone. Why didn't he do it. Why??? It would have stopped a patrol officer from making that trip out there. What motivated him not to ask that question?????

And when you are scared of someone who is following you, you are not thinking about what the legal repercussions will be. You just want to get away from the threat. We don't know how GZ approached TM only that TM felt threatened. GZ could have been angry because TM ran from him and then hid from him and in GZ's mind was trying to pull a fast one over on him. That appears to be where GZ's mind was headed when he disregarded a direction from LE to not follow and stay with is car and wait for the officer. jmo

First the bold. Speculation and neither of us have proof to back our claims, so I'm not going to continue the circular argument.

Second, the underline. I was a 911 dispatcher. I can tell you factually two things here.

1) 911 dispatchers are NOT Law Enforcement, they are call center employees with a bit of training on crucial situations, and most are required to have a "Terminal Operator" certification so they can look people up in NCIC and FBI records - that's it. No law degree, in fact many places don't even require a high school diploma.

2) The 911 dispatcher did NOT give a command to not follow Mr. Martin. What she said was "We don't NEED you to do that" which is ambiguous. If the 911 dispatcher were to say "Do not do that!" this would be different, but I would still refer you to #1.

Now on to the rest of the post. In context to what I was replying to, if Mr. Martin felt scared his duty WAS to retreat. Mr. Zimmerman wanted to know what Mr. Martin was up to, I believe the question "What are you doing here?" could answer the question of "Why are you following me?" with a little common sense. I can not and will not speak on Mr. Zimmerman's behalf on why he did not ask the question before.

If Mr. Martin was really trying to get away from the threat, why didn't he make it home during the phone call with the 911 dispatcher that Mr. Zimmerman was on? He had plenty of time.

 

[Phoenixfla]

I would like to very respectfully ask you if you are saying that those who disagree with certain perspectives here aren't welcome to discuss their opinions in this thread? If so, I absolutely hate that this case has so divided this forum. We don't even have the discovery yet so for the most part we are only going on opinions. If all opinions aren't welcome in this thread, what will be discussed here? I am honestly not trying to be disrespectful but am just trying to understand. If that's what you are saying, I will take your advice and stay off your thread because I do disagree that GZ was defending himself. :truce:

Here is my original post:

Thought I would start a thread to discuss the case from the perspective of the defense. Debate and discussion encouraged, but the purpose of this thread is to keep an open mind to the possibility that GZs story is accurate, and may have been acting in self defense.

What I see are a lot of closed minds, those whom are not willing to CONSIDER the possibility that GZ may have been acting in self defense.

 

[Just K]

I'm afraid that the more information that comes out about GZ more and more people will feel that GZ is not a reliable source of information. The more facts that are established will determine if there is any room left for any benefit of the doubt re: GZ's innocence by virtue of Self Defense.

What many have come to determine, over the past four months, is that GZ cannot be trusted and that this entire event could have been avoided if just this one time he had listened to and followed the advice of others.

Some of us actually came to this Forum with an open mind. Details of GZ's life, behavior patterns and choices have diminished the believability of his stories.

 

[Maxim]

Someone cornering, trapping or detaining another human being is illegal. We, so far, only have the words of a paranoid, gun totting, and possibly drugged vigilante. GZ's word is not something I would want to bet on.

Corner, trap, detain . . . we don't know that's true, but it is inflamatory.
The above doesn't seem at all like a "Defense Perspective". Am I on the wrong thread?

 

[gxm]

Not sure why anyone would use the term witch hunt when an legal investigation was done and the results were 2nd degree murder changes brought against the defendant in this case. Certainly AC was not listings to rumors about this case and relied on the evidence as it was presented to her from her investigators solely. I'm pretty sure AC did not check with MSM before bringing her charges against GZ. jmo

Witch Hunt: An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/witch-hunt

Here are some more definitions of the phrase "witch hunt." BBM:

an intensive effort to discover and expose disloyalty, subversion, dishonesty, or the like, usually based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence.

a searching out for persecution of persons accused of witchcraft (substitute "racism" in place of "witchcraft")

I believe that AC was brought in under political pressure to appease the riled up public (i.e., mob) after GZ was tried and convicted in the MSM before anyone had any real facts.

It may be that people who, like me, are using the term "witch hunt" are trying to be racially sensitive as well as avoid accusations of racism if we use the other term that comes to mind.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[gxm]

I'm afraid that the more information that comes out about GZ more and more people will feel that GZ is not a reliable source of information. The more facts that are established will determine if there is any room left for any benefit of the doubt re: GZ's innocence by virtue of Self Defense.

What many have come to determine, over the past four months, is that GZ cannot be trusted and that this entire event could have been avoided if just this one time he had listened to and followed the advice of others.

Some of us actually came to this Forum with an open mind. Details of GZ's life, behavior patterns and choices have diminished the believability of his stories.

I have to disagree. So far, most, if not all, of the evidence pretty much corroborates GZ's story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[gxm]

Chris, it sounds to me as if people believe that Trayvon had no rights and no option but to surrender to GZ; no matter what GZ and anyone who may have assisted GZ did, said or intimated (IMO GZ is just the type to flash the semi-automatic pistol hidden under the jacket.)

It seems some people believe that even if GZ forced TM up against a house in the breezeway, after cornering him in a dark area, and even man handled him that TM could not and was not supposed to defend himself. It is getting so ridiculous.

THE KID WAS UNARMED!

BBM.

That's not my opinion. My opinion is that we shouldn't have laws that allow people to get away with murder and IMO that's what the SYG law does.

As for this case, I have seen no evidence that GZ wanted to harm TM. He even let TM beat him until he finally began to fear the beating wasn't going to stop. I don't think GZ wanted to fight TM and I don't think he wanted to kill him.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[LambChop]

Here are some more definitions of the phrase "witch hunt." BBM:

an intensive effort to discover and expose disloyalty, subversion, dishonesty, or the like, usually based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence.

a searching out for persecution of persons accused of witchcraft (substitute "racism" in place of "witchcraft")

I believe that AC was brought in under political pressure to appease the riled up public (i.e., mob) after GZ was tried and convicted in the MSM before anyone had any real facts.

It may be that people who, like me, are using the term "witch hunt" are trying to be racially sensitive as well as avoid accusations of racism if we use the other term that comes to mind.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Why use any term when questioning a killing of an innocent person is not only a right of every American but also a duty to get to the truth. SPD had a previous bad reputation that seemed to have some significance here considering the circumstances with legal connections in this case. Also the fact that GZ followed this man when he knew he was not suppose to. So there was something stinky in the case from the beginning. And I think most of us could detect the odor. jmo