Hannah Graham: Body Recovered, 18 Oct, 2014 **Awaiting Forensic Confirmation** #3

[thefrostingflake]

Slipping out of lurkdom to ask what may be a silly question but, will a higher blood alcohol level at the time of death contribute to a faster rate of decomposition? Anyone know?

 

[Elley Mae]

Can someone direct me to a source confirming that the property on Old Lynchburg Road is where remains were found? LE would not reveal that sort of info. How exactly was this precise address deduced?

http://www.c-ville.com/aerial-photos-show-property-remains-may-hannah-graham-found/

At this link you will see pictures that show police tape around the (front/side) property in question.

 

[Paulap]

I think people (not you) expect this to be like a movie, where some crafty serial killer hides a body with care and precision and only very subtle clues.

The truth is much simpler. JM is (allegedly) a serial rapist and killer in real life. This isn't Hollywood. He was already seen on video tapes the night of the disappearance, was careless enough to be seen in 2005 so that a stunningly accurate sketch was produced, clearly left some forensic evidence in at least 3 cases, took the police on a high speed chase, and was dumb enough to try to hide his massive self on a beach in Texas.

I don't understand why people would think that he had some sort of careful solution to hiding a body. I think his MO is to rape and then as quickly as possible dump a body somewhere that he thinks is abandoned. That's all.

completely agree
the rape, the murder and disposal of body asap seem to be his mo

 

[Paulap]

I SO hope they are able to recover tire tracks and/or footprints. It would be so frustrating if the recent rains had washed any such evidence away.

i would think that would be VERY unlikely! it has been 35 days.

 

[CatchingClues]

I think people (not you) expect this to be like a movie, where some crafty serial killer hides a body with care and precision and only very subtle clues.

The truth is much simpler. JM is (allegedly) a serial rapist and killer in real life. This isn't Hollywood. He was already seen on video tapes the night of the disappearance, was careless enough to be seen in 2005 so that a stunningly accurate sketch was produced, clearly left some forensic evidence in at least 3 cases, took the police on a high speed chase, and was dumb enough to try to hide his massive self on a beach in Texas.

I don't understand why people would think that he had some sort of careful solution to hiding a body. I think his MO is to rape and then as quickly as possible dump a body somewhere that he thinks is abandoned. That's all.

Add in the factors, i.e. alcohol, exhaustion, time constraints...

 

[Conductor71]

Really? Check out the Alexis Murphy case. WE know NOTHING. There was enough found in his car and apt. for these charges, so I am guessing something of hers was found (sparkly top, going from MH's case). Video and witness statements of the two of them leaving Tempo, her condition before her encounter with him and after. on & on.

All we have seen so far (or some of us at least) is JM walking on opposite side of mall then walking along side HG Why would LE ask for video footage of HG and JM together after 1:40 am if they had that proof in the first place? I find it inconceivable that nothing would have appeared on Youtube. Equally as strange there are no witness accounts of anyone seeing them together after the mall footage. It is almost like they both vanished after that.

The charges stem from probable cause and from what I have read it is an easy standard to meet. Proving defilement is much higher burden of proof. Just because he maybe bought her drinks or had his arm around her does not show that with premeditation he abducted and defiled her. Her condition based on video or witness interpretation is not damning enough IMO even Longo had different interpretations quoted in the press.

I keep reading there is video footage of them leaving Tempo. Where is that? Also owner of Tempo issued statement that HG was not in that bar. Who does a jury believe?

 

[Skigirl]

I know I shouldn't be posting this here, but were any of the other missing women (that are potential victims of JM), tall women and were also wearing black tights at the time of them going missing? I just cannot get over the description that is was just bones that was all that was remaining.... just seems way too fast to decompose.

Anyone know if other potential victims would match this skeletal and clothing human remains?

I mean, I know I now sound obsessed with turkey vultures/buzzards and they actually really gross me out.. but they can pick a skeleton clean in a matter of hours. I've seen it many times living in the country in terrain quite similar to that found around Charlottesville. Here's an article from a forensic science lab that says that once found, turkey vultures take around 5 hours to reduce a fully-fleshed body to a skeleton (ick): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22204892

"After the initial appearance of the vultures, the body was reduced from a fully-fleshed individual to a skeleton within only 5h. This underscores the potential for errors in postmortem interval estimations made at vulture scavenged scenes."

 

[littlemaybaby]

Ha, that was Otto, I believe. I am not good with numbers but will leave that to the number crunching sleuths out here.

My question is how this impacts the investigation. From what I have read, it is extremely difficult to determine cause of death with skeletal remains and with little to no tissue left get any sort of toxicology report. How in the world does the prosecution prove defilement with no measure of any alcohol in her system? Honestly, I do not even see how it will make it past arraignment. Not a legal expert, but seems that video and witness testimony is not nearly enough when building a case leading to potential murder charges.

Given what *we* know, I agree. However we still have no idea what evidence may have been retrieved from his vehicle, phone, etc. RAT was convicted of murder and to this day there is no body, so stranger things have happened. JMO.

 

[jbowman55]

Ok, thank you! So my theory would be wrong.... lol. Unless of course he parked there and traipsed through the woods to behind the house. Ugh, I'll stop now. I don't know why I'm obsessed with that gate.

Don't feel too bad. I'm obsessed with the gate, too. It's probably the "creepiness factor" of it. :facepalm:

In all seriousness, though, I think it probably is VERY close to where she was found. Sgt T remarked that she was not far from the road.

 

[Conductor71]

http://www.c-ville.com/aerial-photos-show-property-remains-may-hannah-graham-found/

At this link you will see pictures that show police tape around the (front/side) property in question.

Thank for this! Very credible source.

 

[JohnTate90210]

http://www.c-ville.com/aerial-photos-show-property-remains-may-hannah-graham-found/

At this link you will see pictures that show police tape around the (front/side) property in question.

If that is tape, the it appears the body site is probably behind the smaller building rather than the main house.

 

[cady]

Ha, that was Otto, I believe. I am not good with numbers but will leave that to the number crunching sleuths out here.

My question is how this impacts the investigation. From what I have read, it is extremely difficult to determine cause of death with skeletal remains and with little to no tissue left get any sort of toxicology report. How in the world does the prosecution prove defilement with no measure of any alcohol in her system? Honestly, I do not even see how it will make it past arraignment. Not a legal expert, but seems that video and witness testimony is not nearly enough when building a case leading to potential murder charges.

We have no idea of what possible evidence LE has.I don't recall them ever telling search teams to look for her underwear. Could they have found it quite awhile ago? Also, as someone suggested a while ago, there could be a "hair mat" in the vicinity that the finder did not see. That was the case in the Caylee Anthony search....and if not a mat, I'm sure that they have or will find strands of hair. JMO

 

[CatchingClues]

True. He has never been particularly careful in any regards, it seems. It just seems he walked an awfully long distance to the Morgan site to not take a tiny bit more care in concealment.

Just a thought here about MH case - during hunting season, who would have given much thought to a guy on an ATV with what appears to be a deer covered with a tarp? This is a completely different set of factors here. He didn't have hunting season to cover his comings & goings. He had to make it quick, and the place he (allegedly) placed the body worked perfectly. JMHO

 

[RSC]

I think that's precisely why. He never got caught after the MH case, or any others, despite his friends ID'ing him in a sketch and despite MH's body being found. At this point, he didn't think he had to be more careful. He never thought he would be caught.

(of course there is always the alternative; some part of him wanted to be caught...but I won't delve too deeply into this)

True. He has never been particularly careful in any regards, it seems. It just seems he walked an awfully long distance to the Morgan site to not take a tiny bit more care in concealment.

 

[whiskers]

I wonder if home owners nearby heard dogs barking that night. Hunting and outdoor canines usually wake easily. When I'm outside on the porch early in the morning 2-3 AM, the silence is often broken by barking does who heard something. Maybe they heard a deer or another animal, but it woke them up.

 

[RSC]

I'm confused by this post. There were eyewitness accounts of the two of them together after video footage. What are you trying to say?
(Also, I don't think this thread is the right place for this...)

All we have seen so far (or some of us at least) is JM walking on opposite side of mall then walking along side HG Why would LE ask for video footage of HG and JM together after 1:40 am if they had that proof in the first place? I find it inconceivable that nothing would have appeared on Youtube. Equally as strange there are no witness accounts of anyone seeing them together after the mall footage. It is almost like they both vanished after that.

The charges stem from probable cause and from what I have read it is an easy standard to meet. Proving defilement is much higher burden of proof. Just because he maybe bought her drinks or had his arm around her does not show that with premeditation he abducted and defiled her. Her condition based on video or witness interpretation is not damning enough IMO even Longo had different interpretations quoted in the press.

I keep reading there is video footage of them leaving Tempo. Where is that? Also owner of Tempo issued statement that HG was not in that bar. Who does a jury believe?

 

[Spicer2000]

Really? Check out the Alexis Murphy case. WE know NOTHING. There was enough found in his car and apt. for these charges, so I am guessing something of hers was found (sparkly top, going from MH's case). Video and witness statements of the two of them leaving Tempo, her condition before her encounter with him and after. on & on.

The AM case was potentially different. We don't know what they found in his car, but in RAT's trailer, they found AM's blood, fingernails, and bits of her hair/scalp. That's how they were able to find RAT guilty of murder. Depending on what they found in JM's car, it is going to be very difficult to prove intent. Again, the keywords here are: depending on what they found. We just don't know.

 

[Soulmagent]

I don't know whether or not MH's body had been found by buzzards, but buzzards don't always find everything. Why they don't is a mystery to me, but when they do, they descend en masse and clean things up very quickly, and when they don't, whatever it is just decomposes at whatever rate is dictated by other conditions.

There are lot of myths about buzzards, They often dont show up as early as people think they do. Their are two types in black vultures and Turkey vultures and they have different feeding styles. Also crows are at the crime scene first and Vultures get blamed.

 

[Conductor71]

I know I shouldn't be posting this here, but were any of the other missing women (that are potential victims of JM), tall women and were also wearing black tights at the time of them going missing? I just cannot get over the description that is was just bones that was all that was remaining.... just seems way too fast to decompose.

Anyone know if other potential victims would match this skeletal and clothing human remains?

Kinda tangential, but wondering...What is weird about MH case is that according to her mother most of her bones were shattered or crushed. From what I just read is that trauma to the body or crushing can impact rate of decomposition. LE will not reveal these kind of deets if remains are HG, but makes me wonder if this was done with some weird intent, to MH and if it is the same perp, why to only one girl?

 

[Whiteorchids]

Given what *we* know, I agree. However we still have no idea what evidence may have been retrieved from his vehicle, phone, etc. RAT was convicted of murder and to this day there is no body, so stranger things have happened. JMO.

Who is RAT?