Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[zapped]

No, I never looked at it that way. Are you saying a child is abused because they are mentally ill or genetically evil?
Or that parents divorce or do drugs bc their child is genetically evil?

Whaaaa???? This can't be what you're saying. Please explain!

I personally do think adults are mostly unfixable (thank goodness I'm not a therapist with that attitude!), so at the adult level, the problems (abuse, addiction, etc) surely are symptoms of the mental issues.
But I believe the spiral into becoming an adult with these problems could have been prevented or dealt with when said human was a child. JMO

For example with JM, had his parents recognized signs of mistreatment towards others at a young age and gotten him therapy or medication, perhaps it wouldn't have escalated to rape. Which then escalated to murder.

If he was in fact born a murderer, signs would have been there from early on, and the parents are responsible for seeing this and getting their child help (therapy, medication, etc) to keep the greater population safe from their tendencies.

If said child grows and refuses care, it should be up to the parent to figure something out, even if it is (worst case scenerio) going to the LE to disclose his mental health history once suspected of possibly abducting another human.

Im saying that in certain instances it could be a contributing factor.

Maybe the parents fight because one or more of them arent equipped to handle a child that tortures animals, sets their bed on fire and tries to cut them with a knife.

Maybe they are themselves scared and frustrated and confused and turn to drugs or drinking to escape.

Parents arent always aware of the resources they have at their disposal unless they seek help. Its easier for some to exist in a state of denial. Im sure thats at least partially true for some of JLMs friends and family. They just overlooked his odd behavior and hoped for the best.

Maybe the parents believe that what the child really needs is more spankings or tough love and it gets out of hand/crosses the line to abuse, causing the child to act out even more.

There are two sides to every story.

And Im a FIRM believer that some killers are born that way and not the product of their environment.

Love, sympathy and understanding isnt going to fix them any more than someone marrying Charles Manson is going to make him a better person.

There are also plenty of cases of serial killers/sociopaths and psychopaths who were raised in normal, healthy, environments......yet they still have no regard for human life.

 

[otto]

That place is so rural, vultures live there. (They live here in AR too and the wing span is 6 feet, mostly road kill) Anyway-- The couple that called in the smell, was only a couple of days before the sightings of birds.

My husband started smelling things two days ago and saw vultures. And yesterday he was like 'Lori it really smells bad outside, lets shut the windows,'” said Hamilton.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26822378/neighbors-react-to-human-remains-believed-to-be-hannah-graham

That was posted October 18th and updated on the 19th of October, and the couple said the smell was bad a couple of days before that, so that puts it on the 16h or late 17th of October.. She went missing on Sept 13th.

Vultures are interested in carrion. The human body probably qualifies as carrion after six hours in Virginia in September 2014.

When you think of the "Save the Next Girl" push from Gil Harrington, I hope that it is Hannah's mom that picks up the ball, runs with it, and draws the line in the sand between walking into Tempo and leaving; of sound mind versus incapacitated after 30 minutes in Tempo - that no staff witnessed.

She was the white rabbit that no one saw ... reported missing two days after she was abducted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnP72uUt_pU

 

[otto]

There might be a second person to this.. maybe that's why they are looking for links to Randy Taylor (and yes, I know he is in prison) I just find it odd that she was out there for a month amongst active wildlife ( coyotes for number one) and all the sudden a month later the smell and the birds. There is a long time in between that period. And yes, my area did get a lot of rain ( flash flooding) and it lasted for a week. We have black bears here and are pretty use to being considered rural.

I don't think there's anything sinister in the discovery of Hannah's remains. Jesse took Hannah to that location, near his family home, and he murdered her. Randy Taylor was in prison at the time that Hannah was abducted.

Randy Taylor is guilty of another Virginia murder. There is no known connection between Randy Taylor and Jesse Matthew other than the photo of the reflection of the top of the car at the gas station where Alexis Murphy was last seen. The reflection in the car distinctly looks similar to Jesse Matthew's orange car.

 

[zapped]

I don't think there's anything sinister in the discovery of Hannah's remains. Jesse took Hannah to that location, near his family home, and he murdered her. Randy Taylor was in prison at the time that Hannah was abducted.

Randy Taylor is guilty of another Virginia murder. There is no known connection between Randy Taylor and Jesse Matthew other than the photo of the reflection of the top of the car at the gas station where Alexis Murphy was last seen. The reflection in the car distinctly looks similar to Jesse Matthew's orange car.

I coulve sworn I saw a comment made by someone that a friend of Murphys or of RAT said they had she was supposed to meet someone with dreads at a parking garage in dt c-ville to buy drugs.

I know a man with dreads has been mentioned in that case prior to this.

Coincidence? Maybe

But given recent events who knows?

 

[makista]

I coulve sworn I saw a comment made by someone that a friend of Murphys or of RAT said they had she was supposed to meet someone with dreads at a parking garage in dt c-ville to buy drugs.

I know a man with dreads has been mentioned in that case prior to this.

Coincidence? Maybe

But given recent events who knows?

I am very good with patterns and she is going in continuous circles. The question is why? Why? Especially LIVING there for over a year. I would like someone to tell me that she has never visited the downtown mall in a year and half she's lived there. Why should this be unfamiliar territory?

 

[Celtsleuth]

Thank you Foxfire for the link. Unfortunately, I am unable to download it as my computer, which I just bought a couple months ago won't allow it. This is my first Mac and I am trying to figure out how to get it to download from this site. I know it doesn't like cookies....I'll keep trying. My husband has a Mac also but can't help me because mine is the newer version and works differently from his. He talked me into getting it and so far I don't like it as well as my old HP which was a cheapo and worked better than this thing....

QUOTE=Foxfire;11129976] Interesting read, Celtsleuth..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m....html?_r=5&src=me&ref=general&pagewanted=all&

Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?
Then last spring, the psychologist treating Michael referred his parents to Dan Waschbusch, a researcher at Florida International University. Following a battery of evaluations, Anne and Miguel were presented with another possible diagnosis: their son Michael might be a psychopath.

For the past 10 years, Waschbusch has been studying “callous-unemotional” children — those who exhibit a distinctive lack of affect, remorse or empathy — and who are considered at risk of becoming psychopaths as adults.

Currently, there is no standard test for psychopathy in children, but a growing number of psychologists believe that psychopathy is a distinct neurological condition — one that can be identified in children as young as 5.

<sniped - read more>[/QUOTE]

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

FindHG, my money is on Hannah's phone being dumped somewhere close to Tempo, as Morgan's was dumped at JPJ arena. I don't think JM knows the finer points of pings & GPS & batteries, but I think he knows enough to not want his victim's phone to leave the last place she was seen publicly. I think he disabled and dumped Morgan's phone before he ever left the arena area with her. I think Hannah's phone was dumped somewhere in the Downtown Mall area between or near Tempo and where his car was parked. If he can't remove the battery (as I understand from other WSers is the case with IPhone5), I'm guessing that means he either smashed it or discarded it in water somewhere nearby. What are the water or dumping opportunities close by? Storm sewers? I have no idea. Just speculating. Maybe others can come up with some far better ideas than my obvious ones...

Wonder if fingerprints were found on MH's phone?

 

[WhitegateGirl]

Well, as long as it takes with the appeal process, he will have years and years to suffer the loss of his freedom plus the fear that he will one day have to meet his punishment and be put to death....the combination of those two make for the best outcome as far as I'm concerned.....he should not get to live out his natural life....JMO...luckily, it's not in California...they die naturally there before justice is served, not always... but usually. Not meaning to sound super harsh but I have no compassion for people that do this and have a hard time even considering them human. If we could see what LE found compared to what she looked like in life, it would be beyond words.

I get what you're saying, Celtsleuth--and trust me, I have no compassion for him either if he's guilty, which I believe him to be--I just think death is too easy for him. I'd rather see him suffer for a lifetime in prison, deprived of sunlight, freedom of movement, and the ability to seek sexual satisfaction from females he stalked, alone in prison and fully cognizant that he didn't get away with his crimes against women, and that the law was bigger than his ego or his sense of entitlement.

 

[cubbeegirl]

Thank you Foxfire for the link. Unfortunately, I am unable to download it as my computer, which I just bought a couple months ago won't allow it. This is my first Mac and I am trying to figure out how to get it to download from this site. I know it doesn't like cookies....I'll keep trying. My husband has a Mac also but can't help me because mine is the newer version and works differently from his. He talked me into getting it and so far I don't like it as well as my old HP which was a cheapo and worked better than this thing....

QUOTE=Foxfire;11129976] Interesting read, Celtsleuth..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m....html?_r=5&src=me&ref=general&pagewanted=all&

Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?
Then last spring, the psychologist treating Michael referred his parents to Dan Waschbusch, a researcher at Florida International University. Following a battery of evaluations, Anne and Miguel were presented with another possible diagnosis: their son Michael might be a psychopath.

For the past 10 years, Waschbusch has been studying &#8220;callous-unemotional&#8221; children &#8212; those who exhibit a distinctive lack of affect, remorse or empathy &#8212; and who are considered at risk of becoming psychopaths as adults.

Currently, there is no standard test for psychopathy in children, but a growing number of psychologists believe that psychopathy is a distinct neurological condition &#8212; one that can be identified in children as young as 5.

<sniped - read more>

[/QUOTE]

O/T...hang in there with that Mac... I felt the same as you in the beginning... now I cannot operate a windows machine lol... I have my Macbook....and Ipad and an Iphone, I am so enamored of apple products now...

 

[WhitegateGirl]

(ETA--this is in response to WhitegateGirl's post #241. I forgot to quote her passage in my reply)

Thank you for writing this. I have been wanting to write something similar, but wasn't sure exactly how to say what I wanted to say. I can't begin to imagine the pain any and all of the families impacted by these horrific crimes has to live with. And that definitely includes JLM's family. Not only have they lost who they thought he was, but they have to live with the pain and agony of what he has done to these innocent young women. They have to endure their family member being reviled, and many people blaming them for what he did. How do you integrate that someone you love, someone you thought you knew, someone who is a part of you could do such monstrous things?
Thank you WhitegateGirl for expressing this so eloquently. JLM has left pain and suffering in a wide and expanding wake that most certainly includes his own family.

Thank you, Rolo. I'm sorry I didn't see your post sooner, but I was offsite. Your own words are very true and eloquent, and clearly deeply felt.

 

[FindHG]

...I'm new here.

I suppose it's pretty pointless to be posting about this now, but Graham's walk to the downtown mall has bothered me for a while and I just had an idea about what might have happened, so I'm going to go ahead and post anyway.

I went to UVa years ago and lived and worked on the mall for three years--in fact, right on Water Street just a block or so away from where Tempo now is. I must have walked between the school and the mall--down Main Street--a couple hundred times. It seems nearly impossible to me that she would have deliberately walked to the mall via Preston Ave, that's an incredibly roundabout route. But at the same time, I find it equally impossible to imagine any UVa student wandering lost all the way down to the mall area from the university area, even if heavily inebriated. If you were that lost, even drunk you'd phone friends, phone a cab service, you'd stop and ask someone at McGrady's...not just keep on and on walking. Her trip ending at the mall seems too much of a coincidence to be entirely accidental.

It finally occurred to me that she may have been using her phone GPS and input the street number wrong. When she left the last party, she could have gotten turned around and headed up 14th Street in the wrong direction and ended up wandering about for a bit. If she was unable to raise friends with a text message (loud music at parties), she could have decided to use her phone's GPS and tried to input 14th and Main, the central intersection right near both the parties and her apartment. All it would take would be one little mistake--4th and Main rather than 14th and Main--and if she was close to Grady Avenue at the time, the GPS would have taken her straight down Grady onto Preston and then up to the downtown mall, where the intersection of 4th and Main is.

If you see her after she leaves McGrady's in the video posted above, she stops momentarily, and I wonder if she's checking her phone then. Same thing when she's reaching into her back pocket in the mall video. I suppose it's possible she was placing her trust in the phone's GPS rather than acknowledging that something just wasn't right.

As I say, I suppose this really doesn't matter. Feel terrible for her family.
End Quote:

Nice ideas. Thank you for that inside take on things. Your guesses are as good as guesses go. Hope you keep sharing them.

It brings me back to that nagging feeling gut wishful thinking, I don't know what it is, but things didn't go as he may have wanted them. His arm around her we see around 1:06 to 1:10, and they were seen together around Tempo from 1:15 to 1:45ish am. The sober sounding "lost" is sent before they leave the area. His arm around her, he may have taken her phone. Having to buy a drink, spend time where he's seen with her again, may have happened, because Hannah Graham had no sober or willful intention of leaving with him, before the drink. Bringing that guard of her's down cost him his freedom. His alibi with the text from the wrong place was gone, he may have known that by the time he took her away from the mall 1:45am. Could she have been familiar enough with the mall, to not need a ride, walk to where she could take a bus to the Corner Area?

She had helped a girl onto a bus, we know. So in predator mode, the perp may have acted in a way to make that harder for her, harder to leave a lost phone behind, feeling bit off keel, from a what may have been some weird place, with a creepy guy. Could he have stolen her phone and sent the text, then killed the phone? Maybe too early for cover, maybe a mistake in line with his over-confident beastly antics of earlier in the evening?

According to LE at 1:20 am the signal from the phone dies. At that point could it have been that Hannah Graham's phone became a liability for him to keep? She may have been almost at his will, yet something may have happened that delayed their departure and he was seen again with her, barely able to stand, way after the phone is dead, more than 20 minutes after.

Sorry, I have never doubted his guilt, nor his intent, for reasons that may seem obvious only to me, but all the experience he had getting away with it, he didn't get away with it that night. I think Hannah Graham's will, resistance, what may be evidence of it in that timeline is what may be nagging at me. I find it hard to discount.

 

[Jmm124567]

Murder is the first thought, getting rid of the body is the last thought. Morgan was aducted and left in a tall wheat field on October 17. She was found on January 26 the following year. Hannah went missing on September 13 and was found in a dry creek bed on October 18. I doubt either of those are likely hunting trails.

Animals are attracted to water, not dry creeks, so even during hunting season, it's not a likely spot. Morgan's body was left in tall grass, or wheat. She was not found until the grass was flattened by the snow, and he remains were almost skeletonized. Clearly they were not so skeletonized as to obscure DNA results ... that now match now only a rape in 2005, but a murder in 2009 and another murder in 2014.

I thought the DNA came from MH shirt not her remains

 

[FindHG]

I get what you're saying, Celtsleuth--and trust me, I have no compassion for him either if he's guilty, which I believe him to be--I just think death is too easy for him. I'd rather see him suffer for a lifetime in prison, deprived of sunlight, freedom of movement, and the ability to seek sexual satisfaction from females he stalked, alone in prison and fully cognizant that he didn't get away with his crimes against women, and that the law was bigger than his ego or his sense of entitlement.

You mean so despaired by conditions that he'd wish for his own death? If I'm correct about the sense I get from his behavior so far, documented, suspected or told of, his only condition is to adapt and get. He'll keep doing that with every breath left because he loves himself so much more than all that has existed around him. Even in jail, he is the center of the world, onto himself, the way I see it.

 

[WhitegateGirl]

You mean so despaired by conditions that he'd wish for his own death? If I'm correct about the sense I get from his behavior so far, documented, suspected or told of, his only condition is to adapt and get. He'll keep doing that with every breath left because he loves himself so much more than all that has existed around him. Even in jail, he is the center of the world, onto himself, the way I see it.

I think you characterization of him is spot-on and very insightful, FindHG, and I agree with you that the type of person he is would probably be unlikely to wish for his own death if he were imprisoned. But it's his arrogant assumption that he is the center of the universe and far more important than his fellow humans that I believe would make a lifetime in prison unbearable for him, far out of the sight of everyone, having no opportunity to stalk and rape innocent young women, and permanently under the thumb of the law he'd always thought himself above. To die would be the end of that frustration and anguish for him. After what I believe he did to Hannah, Morgan, and who knows how many others, I don't want those torments to end for him. Death is easy; a long life of unabated misery is the torture I think such a predatory monster deserves.

 

[kevin_405]

My understanding was that Hannah's phone was an iPhone, which has a battery that is challenging, to say the least, to remove. I don't know the details, but I can't visualize JLM going around with a small jeweler's screwdriver in his pocket, just in case....

The original post that I was looking at, was suggesting that JLM might have kept Hannah's phone and sold it on Craigslist. So, a serious question: how would that be possible? Would the process of wiping it clean to be sold make it unrecognizable for the purposes of the police search? Would that be something that JLM was able to do?

Each device has a unique id called imei number. Phone wiping does not change the imei number. Hannah,s carrier has the imei number for sure. Phone needs to jail broken and then a hacker might be able to change imei number. A very complicated process.

The killer has probably destroyed the phone rather than sold it on Craig's list as it can be easily traced back when the buyer connect it to any network in north America.

 

[kevin_405]

I am very good with patterns and she is going in continuous circles. The question is why? Why? Especially LIVING there for over a year. I would like someone to tell me that she has never visited the downtown mall in a year and half she's lived there. Why should this be unfamiliar territory?

She was drunk, probably knowingly or unknowingly had or was given other controlled sub at the party too. The info on what she had at the parties is not being revealed. The drink that jlm gave her could have been spiked too.

 

[FindHG]

This is a tad dated, but hadn't seen it until now,
HUMAN REMAINS FOUND IN THE SEARCH FOR HANNAH GRAHAM IN ABELMARLE COUNTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-htnkPF0xA
CNN Newsroom 10 min segment

The New Trends 2014
Published on Oct 26, 2014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FpcgYzBtgE
6 min seg

 

[FindHG]

I think you characterization of him is spot-on and very insightful, FindHG, and I agree with you that the type of person he is would probably be unlikely to wish for his own death if he were imprisoned. But it's his arrogant assumption that he is the center of the universe and far more important than his fellow humans that I believe would make a lifetime in prison unbearable for him, far out of the sight of everyone, having no opportunity to stalk and rape innocent young women, and permanently under the thumb of the law he'd always thought himself above. To die would be the end of that frustration and anguish for him. After what I believe he did to Hannah, Morgan, and who knows how many others, I don't want those torments to end for him. Death is easy; a long life of unabated misery is the torture I think such a predatory monster deserves.

You never know about spot-on. Any perceived reality that feels spot-on can be a slippery slope to believing what we need, ya know? But thanks, because it all feels kind of crazy to think about. I know the Graham's pain is real.

I completely defer any sense of justice to whatever Hannah Graham's family would wish.

 

[Tulessa]

Blessed be though soul. R.I.P. Little One!

 

[jamicat]

Nice ideas. Thank you for that inside take on things. Your guesses are as good as guesses go. Hope you keep sharing them.

It brings me back to that nagging feeling gut wishful thinking, I don't know what it is, but things didn't go as he may have wanted them. His arm around her we see around 1:06 to 1:10, and they were seen together around Tempo from 1:15 to 1:45ish am. The sober sounding "lost" is sent before they leave the area. His arm around her, he may have taken her phone. Having to buy a drink, spend time where he's seen with her again, may have happened, because Hannah Graham had no sober or willful intention of leaving with him, before the drink. Bringing that guard of her's down cost him his freedom. His alibi with the text from the wrong place was gone, he may have known that by the time he took her away from the mall 1:45am. Could she have been familiar enough with the mall, to not need a ride, walk to where she could take a bus to the Corner Area?

She had helped a girl onto a bus, we know. So in predator mode, the perp may have acted in a way to make that harder for her, harder to leave a lost phone behind, feeling bit off keel, from a what may have been some weird place, with a creepy guy. Could he have stolen her phone and sent the text, then killed the phone? Maybe too early for cover, maybe a mistake in line with his over-confident beastly antics of earlier in the evening?

According to LE at 1:20 am the signal from the phone dies. At that point could it have been that Hannah Graham's phone became a liability for him to keep? She may have been almost at his will, yet something may have happened that delayed their departure and he was seen again with her, barely able to stand, way after the phone is dead, more than 20 minutes after.

Sorry, I have never doubted his guilt, nor his intent, for reasons that may seem obvious only to me, but all the experience he had getting away with it, he didn't get away with it that night. I think Hannah Graham's will, resistance, what may be evidence of it in that timeline is what may be nagging at me. I find it hard to discount.

I got lost in an area I should have known, got turned around and with my mind on other things was some distance the wrong way before I realized it. Right about when Hannah did this. There is this sinking feeling when you realize what you did, and then the prospect of walking back the other way doesn't make you feel so great. Hannah did not have her purse with her so, who knows what she had in the way of id,cards, money. Not living on campus so she did not need that UVA ID, just a key to get into her place, and she probably planned to stay right in the Corner that night not needing any money. Cell phone also could have been low on batteries--kids tend to have that happen alot.

So a ride offer from a friendly sounding guy would have been very welcome. After all, we're only talking a very short ride. An offfer for a nice cold beer would have sounded good too, after that walk and being a bit dehydrated after drinking earlier. And all indications are that JM was smooth and harmless sounding when he was being charming. Phone could have died at that point too, though I think JM just pitched it into a storm gutter or in doused it in any water to end that signal quickly That has killed some of my kids' phones on the spot and takes an instant. I think that she agreed to the drink from Tempos, and though there will never be proof, the way she was described after the drink, it could have been spiked. JM is a predator, and clearly was on the hunt. He probably kept a few of those drugs at hand to help things along when the victims were not willing enough.