Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[RANCH]

Part of the problem is that we don't know where and when this happened, and what the trigger may have been. IMO If you go with the least problematic scenario, it happened in the afternoon, in the garage and Casey is frustrated, angry, snaps and focuses on Caylee as being the thing that's keeping her from getting what she wants. Casey grabs the duct tape. Assuming Casey is intent on murder, she has to cover the airways completely. I would think she would have had to bind Caylee's wrists, bc Casey didn't appear to have any scratch marks on her arms. Then tear and apply three pieces of tape, all while Caylee is likely crying, fighting, kicking, trying to pull at the tape... Casey would have to be holding her close, be face to face with her, seeing the terror in her eyes, fighting to get the tape on, and keep it on, and keep herself from getting hurt or bruised in the process.

It's just extremely violent and sadistic, and we don't have any evidence that Casey has every been that way before. Not saying it's not possible, but why not something easier, like a pillow or plastic bag? (Ugh, just writing that makes me literally nauseous and teary eyed) Sorry if I've upset anyone, not my intention.

Were and when. We can assume. Trigger is motive? Prosecution dosen't have to prove motive in a murder case. Its good to have one but not required.Casey didn't have any scratches visible because the police were not involved until a month after the fact.Maybe she did at the time of Caylee's death. She could have sedated her someway before the tape was applied. We can't tell for sure because she hid the fact that she was gone for so long.

 

[Who_What_When]

I do think this thread shows that while the defense team failed to prove or much other than how to create tons of billable hours, the state case is still somewhat lacking to make it highly likely that all 12 jurors will vote to convict Murder 1 and the death penalty.

We still haven't come to the closing arguments yet and anything could happen that may have major impact on the jury. I just hope Baez doesn't decide his swan song is to guarantee they flip the switch on his client, just for a grande finale.

I think closing arguments will be key in this case. I can't wait to see how the SA brings it all together. I think it could be what makes or breaks this case.

 

[Leah0107]

Why so much duct tape? That has bothered me like nothing else. This is A LOT of duct tape on a little face. 3 pieces connected with the skull.
from skull
q62 - 9.5x2
q63 - 7.5x2intertwined w q64
q64- 9.5x2
found separate from skull
q104-8.5x2 only one no dead hair

I, like you, have gone over and over and over this in my mind and I can't think of any logical reason they would be there other than to cause suffocation.
keep silent theory - why so much and stuck in hair (how do you remove that later?)
kidnapp theory - why so much?
manipulated by the elements - how'd they end up stuck in her hair?
stuck to bag and hair - wouldn't there be evidence of bag on tape or vice versa?
pet wrap theory-seems there'd be some connection with bag?
keep in body fluids - i personally just don't buy this

I want to believe it an accident. It's easier to wrap my mind around that a mother intentionally killing her child. Besides all of the behavior and other stuff too numerous too mention at this time that doesn't add up, this is one piece of evidence that keeps haunting me like nothing else and has had me entertaining 1st degree premed or felony murder. If I was on the jury I could comp with 2nd degree, not sure if I could agree to manslaughter. But I am still stuck on this duct tape.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I do not believe the duct tape could have been put on to close the bag. Here is why:
Have you ever seen what happens when duct tape melts onto a garbage bag? Because 4 months of summer heat, beginning in a hot car trunk of over 130 degrees---would absolutely MELT the tape onto the bag material. It would not just 'come off' by itself. AND if it did, [ it wouldn't but] if it did, it would not have any adhesive left to stick on the hair.

Besides that, it was needed to hold the mandible in place. AND NO, the roots could not do that because the mandible falls off within a day or two w/out being held with something.

So the guilty verdict is coming from FACTUAL EVIDENCE, not just her horrid 31 days of behavior. imoo

Respectfully, what factual evidence surrounding the actual death has been proven BARD? I realize this is subjective, but what facts about the actual death were testified to by experts as being the only logical, reasonable conclusion for the evidence, rather than evidence that supports a theory of the crime (i.e. "If you accept A then B is probably true"), or appeals to emotion? I can only think of one, and that was Dr. G saying that homicide is scientifically supported as the manner of death. Which I agree with, but homicide isn't murder, could also be manslaughter.

 

[RANCH]

Ok, so let's say it was an accident. Let's say she found her baby in the pool.

LOTS AND LOTS of questions then arise:

WHY didn't she call for an EMT to try and save her child?
Surely if she is telling the truth about her Dad being there, he would have known how effective oxygen machines and paramedics can be.

Wouldnt they have screamed and made a ruckus if they found Caylee in the pool? Did they instantly decide to be quiet and cover it up?

There are at least 2 houses with a clear view into the Ant's backyard. How did they expect to pick a dead child out of the pool and know they wewre not seen?

Why would some one cover up an accidental death by making it look like a MURDER? Does that make any sense?
And WHY would a detective do so?

Toddlers die in pools every day in Florida. There is no extensive criminal punishment involved. UNLESS it is very negligent, like the child was left alone or something like that.

So assuming it was just an accident, WHY wasn't the mom grieving or sad? She went on a movie date hours after the 'tragic accident' and was flirting and laughing AND she essentially moved into her boyfriends house that VERY NIGHT.

Why assume it was a tragic accident if the mom was so seemingly happy and carefree from within HOURS of the drowning?

And IF It was an accident, then WHY sit in jail for 3 years? Her original excuse for not reporting it was that she did not want her mom to know.

OK, then once her mom DID KNOW, once her mom found out the child was missing, and the cops begged her to admit it was an accident---WHY not do so? [ I have an idea---maybe if she had let them find the body too soon they might have ben able to test for drowning etc. So she had to wait it out,maybe.]

Ok, so if it was an accident, and she decides to cover it up---does it bother anyone that she tried to blame others for kidnapping/murder? Seems rather harsh for a innocent grieving mom whose child accidentally drowned.

I AM SORRY. But people just saying it was an accident without thinking it through really bothers me because Casey's behavior after the fact was so horrendous. She really should be held accountable for that, imo.

She promised her parents that the child was fine, and would be home for her birthday. SHE HAD THEM PLAN A BDAY PARTY FOR CAYLEE. If that does not tell us just how much she hated her parents, nothing will, imo.

Thank you great post. I like the way you look at the CORPUS DELICTI.

 

[dilbert]

If reasonable doubt = reasonable confusion, then yes. LOL

 

[katydid23]

All of that assumes that the "accident" wasn't criminally negligent in some way, which I don't think was the OP's intent. The point she (he?) was trying to make is that without knowing COD it's difficult to say that it was murder BARD, rather than a lesser degree of homicide, like manslaughter. I really can't see any juror buying the DT's theory, but that doesn't mean they'll accept the entire prosecution's theory without question. MOO

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between 'accidentally' giving a child too much chloroform, or 'accidentally' leaving a child in the trunk for too long, or 'accidentally' uploading fusion pix while your child swims alone in the pool, and placing tape over their mouth and nose while they are sleeping. It is all despicable, imo.
There is no chance she is going to get the DP anyway, imo. So the only question is between 30 yrs or LWOP. I would be happy with either one.

 

[Who_What_When]

Would you be able to find her guilty of a lesser charge?

I think she is definitely guilty of aggravated manslaughter of a child.

 

[Nova24]

I go by what I would think if on the jury and I would be stuck with chloro search and finding of chloro in trunk. That might even worry me more than the duct tape. There is also the hair in trunk so I would have no doubt she spent some time in there.

I think DT should have just conceded she was in trunk. ICA is so worried about being seen as victim but she should have confessed to some accountablity. She even could have lied about the dad more and said he put the baby in the trunk after the drowning.

Both sides will have good closings but I expect State's to be better. They have been much more professional and concise throughout. I also would have had CM do the whole closing. I think jury would take better to them and he doesn't come across as posey as JB.

 

[Nova24]

I think she is definitely guilty of aggravated manslaughter of a child.

I think 2nd or MS is where they eventually land. They might split the baby versus hung jury and go with lesser charges. Even though I personally would like to see LWOP I could live with 30 years.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Were and when. We can assume. Trigger is motive? Prosecution dosen't have to prove motive in a murder case. Its good to have one but not required.Casey didn't have any scratches visible because the police were not involved until a month after the fact.Maybe she did at the time of Caylee's death. She could have sedated her someway before the tape was applied. We can't tell for sure because she hid the fact that she was gone for so long.

No, they don't HAVE to, if they have enough compelling evidence to prove it without motive. Why did LE not ask Tony if she had any visible injuries that night? There are none in any of the many, many pictures taken in the 31 days, and we saw a lot of Casey's body in those pics. Yes, she could have sedated her, but where's the proof she did? I'm really not saying I don't think that somehow she murdered her, only that no one, including the state really has any idea what happened that day besides Casey, and as frustrating as that is, that leaves room for reasonable doubt.

ETA: To be clear, I'm not arguing that she should or will be acquitted either. There's plenty to support aggravated manslaughter BARD.

 

[Who_What_When]

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between 'accidentally' giving a child too much chloroform, or 'accidentally' leaving a child in the trunk for too long, or 'accidentally' uploading fusion pix while your child swims alone in the pool, and placing tape over their mouth and nose while they are sleeping. It is all despicable, imo.
There is no chance she is going to get the DP anyway, imo. So the only question is between 30 yrs or LWOP. I would be happy with either one.

The difference is first degree murder, second degree murder or aggravated manslaughter.

placing tape over their mouth and nose while they are sleeping: first degree murder
accidentally giving your child too much chloroform: second degree murder
uploading fusion pix while your child swims alone in the pool: aggravated manslaughter

 

[GeekyGirl]

I think 2nd or MS is where they eventually land. They might split the baby versus hung jury and go with lesser charges. Even though I personally would like to see LWOP I could live with 30 years.

I'm with you on this.

 

[passionflower]

NO!!!

 

[Who_What_When]

I think 2nd or MS is where they eventually land. They might split the baby versus hung jury and go with lesser charges. Even though I personally would like to see LWOP I could live with 30 years.

I know there are different ways they can come up with felony murder so if they find her guilty of several charges it might add to felony murder, I'm just not sure how that works. I think she'll get at least 30 years if not more. I'm not for the DP so I rather see her get life.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I know there are different ways they can come up with felony murder so if they find her guilty of several charges it might add to felony murder, I'm just not sure how that works. I think she'll get at least 30 years if not more. I'm not for the DP so I rather see her get life.

The way I understand it, if the death was the result of a willful act of child abuse, like cholororming your child, felony murder would apply. Child neglect (drowning, hot car, etc.) would be agg manslaughter. IANAL though...

 

[Nova24]

I know there are different ways they can come up with felony murder so if they find her guilty of several charges it might add to felony murder, I'm just not sure how that works. I think she'll get at least 30 years if not more. I'm not for the DP so I rather see her get life.

I know Aggravated Child Abuse becomes felony murder and I think felony murder means DP can be on the table but I'm not sure about that part.

Is disposing of a body, etc. part of Agg Man?

 

[RANCH]

No, they don't HAVE to, if they have enough compelling evidence to prove it without motive. Why did LE not ask Tony if she had any visible injuries that night? There are none in any of the many, many pictures taken in the 31 days, and we saw a lot of Casey's body in those pics. Yes, she could have sedated her, but where's the proof she did? I'm really not saying I don't think that somehow she murdered her, only that no one, including the state really has any idea what happened that day besides Casey, and as frustrating as that is, that leaves room for reasonable doubt.

ETA: To be clear, I'm not arguing that she should or will be acquitted either. There's plenty to support aggravated manslaughter BARD.

So your saying that we know what exactly happened that day or only know part of what happened that day?

 

[Who_What_When]

I know Aggravated Child Abuse becomes felony murder and I think felony murder means DP can be on the table but I'm not sure about that part.

Is disposing of a body, etc. part of Agg Man?

Thanks for the info. I don't know about disposing a body. I would think that would be a charge all in it's own.

 

[Nova24]

I don't think DT will do it and not so sure State would be open to it but I would try and work out a last minute plea deal for 30 years.