Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[GeekyGirl]

Alrighty then.

Never mind, I'm an idiot, I just reread your post and I get what you're saying now... That's a good point, but if younplan a murder, why would you leave so many pieces of evidence that point directly back to you (or at least someone in your home)? And leaves the body so close to home? Even if you plan on a burial, that just seems illogical. I'm not saying it's not what happened, just that it doesn't support the assertion that it HAD to have been premeditated.

 

[dilbert]

Never mind, I'm an idiot, I just reread your post and I get what you're saying now... That's a good point, but if younplan a murder, why would you leave so many pieces of evidence that point directly back to you (or at least someone in your home)? And leaves the body so close to home? Even if you plan on a burial, that just seems illogical. I'm not saying it's not what happened, just that it doesn't support the assertion that it HAD to have been premeditated.

cuz she's dumb?

 

[butwhatif?]

I had thought ICA was likely guilty from the beginning, but I played devils advocate, waiting to see what the DT would present at trial.
So prior to trial I guess I had some reasonable doubt.

But the DT, (not the prosecution) has removed all doubt for me.

 

[katydid23]

It requires a huge suspension of disbelief on my part to believe that someone plans for any significantly length of time (more than a day) and never considers that they'll have a body to deal with. Not saying it couldn't happen, but is really likely?

BUT THAT IS CASEY. Look at how she lived her life? She NEVER planned anything out. Remember the story about the end of the hallway?

She just lied in each moment and let things happen as they do. She let her family travel to her graduation and never told them until that afternoon she was not graduating.

She let Amy H. start using her folks address to send her belongings to because she believed she was moving in soon. THAT IS CASEY.

 

[dilbert]

I also think the way the body was concealed in bags prove it was premeditated. If it was an accident or a spur of the moment type of murder, she would have just panicked and dumped the body "as is" somewhere. The wrapping of the body and the sticker was methodical.

 

[Nova24]

If they believe they chloro was used would that fall under Agg Child Abuse or 2nd? I guess they could go either way with it but I believe the penalty for Agg Child Abuse is felony murder so does that put it back at 1st Degree? Perhaps they will find the chloro was used but the intention to kill wasn't premeditated but accidental. In that case it would be more 2nd but I think it falls under 1st.

 

[GeekyGirl]

With respect....can you explain "Room for reasonable doubt?

Sorry, I'm getting tired, so I hope this abbreviated version makes sense, basically I don't think I could say that I'm reasonably sure I know how Caylee was murdered. I think she was, but I'm not sure under what circumstances. I have a really hard time saying that Chloroform was definitely involved (there's a much longer explanation of my thoughts behind this a few pages back) and the duct tape presents issues for me too (again, long explanation further back). Even Dr G said the she couldn't scientifically support listing duct tape as the cause of death. Without being reasonably certain what actually caused Caylee's death, I would have problems saying that I was reasonably sure that her death meets the elements of first degree murder, either by premeditation or the felony murder rule. I know many people disagree with me, and I understand why, but it's just how I feel. I would absolutely no problem, if I were on the jury, voting for agg manslaughter, which only requires proof that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, and I think the state absolutely did the best with what they had. Again, only what I think based on the legal requirements for burden of proof, not my speculations on what actually happened that day. Sorry if I didn't fully answer your question, but my fingers are cramping up... MOO and no disrespect to anyone else's opinion.

 

[GeekyGirl]

BUT THAT IS CASEY. Look at how she lived her life? She NEVER planned anything out. Remember the story about the end of the hallway?

She just lied in each moment and let things happen as they do. She let her family travel to her graduation and never told them until that afternoon she was not graduating.

She let Amy H. start using her folks address to send her belongings to because she believed she was moving in soon. THAT IS CASEY.

Agreed, she's not a planner... excellent point, but then how do you explain the chloroform theory? That requires planning and follow through...

 

[GeekyGirl]

cuz she's dumb?

LOL... So true. Thanks for the belly laugh, I needed that.

 

[RANCH]

Sorry, I'm getting tired, so I hope this abbreviated version makes sense, basically I don't think I could say that I'm reasonably sure I know how Caylee was murdered. I think she was, but I'm not sure under what circumstances. I have a really hard time saying that Chloroform was definitely involved (there's a much longer explanation of my thoughts behind this a few pages back) and the duct tape presents issues for me too (again, long explanation further back). Even Dr G said the she couldn't scientifically support listing duct tape as the cause of death. Without being reasonably certain what actually caused Caylee's death, I would have problems saying that I was reasonably sure that her death meets the elements of first degree murder, either by premeditation or the felony murder rule. I know many people disagree with me, and I understand why, but it's just how I feel. I would absolutely no problem, if I were on the jury, voting for agg manslaughter, which only requires proof that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, and I think the state absolutely did the best with what they had. Again, only what I think based on the legal requirements for burden of proof, not my speculations on what actually happened that day. Sorry if I didn't fully answer your question, but my fingers are cramping up... MOO and no disrespect to anyone else's opinion.

I think you answered just fine. What you need to do though is follow the jury instructions when HHJP reads them. After that you should be good to go. I trust you.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I also think the way the body was concealed in bags prove it was premeditated. If it was an accident or a spur of the moment type of murder, she would have just panicked and dumped the body "as is" somewhere. The wrapping of the body and the sticker was methodical.

Is it proof that the death was planned, or that she had a body she didn't know what to do with, and mimicked what she'd seen her family do with their pets? (Ugh, that makes me ill)

 

[Nali87]

Sorry, I'm getting tired, so I hope this abbreviated version makes sense, basically I don't think I could say that I'm reasonably sure I know how Caylee was murdered. I think she was, but I'm not sure under what circumstances. I have a really hard time saying that Chloroform was definitely involved (there's a much longer explanation of my thoughts behind this a few pages back) and the duct tape presents issues for me too (again, long explanation further back). Even Dr G said the she couldn't scientifically support listing duct tape as the cause of death. Without being reasonably certain what actually caused Caylee's death, I would have problems saying that I was reasonably sure that her death meets the elements of first degree murder, either by premeditation or the felony murder rule. I know many people disagree with me, and I understand why, but it's just how I feel. I would absolutely no problem, if I were on the jury, voting for agg manslaughter, which only requires proof that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, and I think the state absolutely did the best with what they had. Again, only what I think based on the legal requirements for burden of proof, not my speculations on what actually happened that day. Sorry if I didn't fully answer your question, but my fingers are cramping up... MOO and no disrespect to anyone else's opinion.

That's not a legal requirement for a guilty verdict on first degree murder though. Exact cause of death is not a requirement. Judge Perry told CM as much yesterday.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I think you answered just fine. What you need to do though is follow the jury instructions when HHJP reads them. After that you should be good to go. I trust you.

Thanks for that It helps to talk it through. I'm really okay with anything agg manslaughter and above, but not the DP. I'm not opposed to the DP in general, but I'm not sure I'm okay with it when there's so little direct evidence of the crime. Not logical, I know.

 

[katydid23]

Never mind, I'm an idiot, I just reread your post and I get what you're saying now... That's a good point, but if younplan a murder, why would you leave so many pieces of evidence that point directly back to you (or at least someone in your home)? And leaves the body so close to home? Even if you plan on a burial, that just seems illogical. I'm not saying it's not what happened, just that it doesn't support the assertion that it HAD to have been premeditated.

I see the problem. You are using your own brain and trying to attribute your smarts to Casey. She is NOT like that. She lived on the edge. Look how she was living her life. Any moment one of her friends could have found out about any of her HUGE lies and everything would come crashing down--at it did.

But she lived it like that-lie upon lie. No foundation for any stability. She lived by the seat of her pants.

As to WHY she would bury a body with so many ties back to the home. My theory is that she planned to frame George all along. It was no accident that Baez came up with that theory. imoo

As to the premeditation--I believe the neckbreaking and chlorophyl were meant for her parents.
She was telling everyone that her parents were 'signing over' their house to her. She had Amy sending her camera to the house and using the address for future mail already.

The premeditation and fantasy was all about mom and dad, imo. But after the fight with mom, over the custody of Caylee, Casey became enraged and spiteful. She could not let her parents kick her out and take custody of Caylee. So she made a quick, but premeditated, decision to take Caylee away for her parents forever. imoo

 

[com n sense]

Agreed, she's not a planner... excellent point, but then how do you explain the chloroform theory? That requires planning and follow through...

Casey did have a plan thought out about where to bury Caylee & probably her parents too. She thought she could dig a hole with a shovel & bury them all in the pet cemetary.... They would have all been Casey's trophys.

 

[GeekyGirl]

That's not a legal requirement for a guilty verdict on first degree murder though. Exact cause of death is not a requirement. Judge Perry told CM as much yesterday.

Again, you have to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime meets the elements of the charge. I, personally, don't think I could do that for first degree murder without actually being reasonably sure I know the circumstances of that death. I understand if you disagree, but that's my opinion. Not trying to be snarky, but I've stated my position every way I know how in this thread tonight, and I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, and my puppy is going to pee on the floor if he doesn't get a walk before I go to bed.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I see the problem. You are using your own brain and trying to attribute your smarts to Casey. She is NOT like that. She lived on the edge. Look how she was living her life. Any moment one of her friends could have found out about any of her HUGE lies and everything would come crashing down--at it did.

But she lived it like that-lie upon lie. No foundation for any stability. She lived by the seat of her pants.

As to WHY she would bury a body with so many ties back to the home. My theory is that she planned to frame George all along. It was no accident that Baez came up with that theory. imoo

LOL that may be an overstatement of my brain, but I see what you're saying. You're absolutely right about how she lived and thought, which is partly why I have problems with the chloroform, and to a lesser extent the duct tape.

 

[RANCH]

Thanks for that It helps to talk it through. I'm really okay with anything agg manslaughter and above, but not the DP. I'm not opposed to the DP in general, but I'm not sure I'm okay with it when there's so little direct evidence of the crime. Not logical, I know.

I've been with aggravative manslaughter for a while now.She probably deserves more.I'm not totally against the DP, but here in California its a farce.

 

[chgokim]

BUT THAT IS CASEY. Look at how she lived her life? She NEVER planned anything out. Remember the story about the end of the hallway?

She just lied in each moment and let things happen as they do. She let her family travel to her graduation and never told them until that afternoon she was not graduating.

She let Amy H. start using her folks address to send her belongings to because she believed she was moving in soon. THAT IS CASEY.

Also, weren't there parties planned/food cooked that "guests" didn't show up to? Also shopping with Cindy and somebody's mother at the mall that the mother "cancelled" at the last minute?

I am not sure if any of the above was presented to the jury, however.

 

[Tricia]

Florida Attorney Richard Hornsby has taught me a lot.

One of the main things he taught me is to think like a juror in this case.

If it is really true that these jurors didn't know that much about the case then I can certainly see a hung jury.

At the most a reduced charged but not 1st degree.

They can't say how Caylee died. It could have been an accident. I don't believe it was but again, I'm trying to think like the jury.

In the Scott Peterson case they didn't know how Laci Peterson died either but they knew it was murder by the manner in which her body was found.

Scott couldn't say Laci died accidental and he went to all this trouble to hider her body because he was scared. That wouldn't pass the smell test.

We hear too many tragic stories of little kids drowning in a pool. That's why it seems plausible.

Where the theory goes off track is everything the defense put out after admitting she drowned in a pool.

Here is the thing Baez could get up there and say, "The Prosecution showed you how much Casey lied and just how shallow she is. The Prosecution just proved our case ladies and gentlemen. They showed just how dysfunctional Casey is and we showed you how dysfunctional her whole family is so how can you convict her when everyone one her family lies?"

I'm leaning toward a hung jury or maybe they will see through all that stuff the defense threw out there and convict her quickly of first degree.

In other words, I really don't know.