Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[Pink Panther]

Perimortem still means it could have occurred before IIRC, a lot of the jurors felt that supported a violent criminal death. FWIW I honestly don't know that I could have found SP guilty, based on the trial, but I didn't watch it as closely as this one.

Sp was as obviously guilty as KC is. Amber and his phone calls with her cinched the deal. The SA didn't spend much time on KC's endless non-stop phone calls/text mesages/im messages night and day...If they had, at the very least, they would have demonstrated neglect...

moo

 

[sappysoul]

I'm confused about the felony murder (1st degree) charge. If Caylee was put in the trunk for any reason and died, if she was medicated for any reason other than her health and died, if the duct tape was put on her mouth for any reason and died...wouldn't all that be felony murder? How else could she have died other than an accident or felony murder that is reasonable to believe? Natural cause and suicide are not reasonable IMO. So if she didn't die as the result of an act of child abuse, premeditated murder or accident what is reasonable to conclude? Obviously I'm confused and just hope this makes sense.

 

[Italy]

If Casey ever tells where Caylee was during the long hours Casey was partying the night away with her boyfriends (sometimes until mid-day the next day) we will then know the truth.

When Caylee wasn't w/ her grandparents and Casey said she was with the nanny -- where was she?? (Her party friends have said they never saw her)

Where was she?? ...this is the question that is haunting George Anthony.

 

[happyman70]

Out of curiosity I googled "how to make chloroform," and learned at the first site that only water, shock, ice, and acetone are needed. Everyone has water and ice, everyone who has a swimming pool has shock (a chemical to clear pool water,) and almost every woman has acetone nail polish remover. I got this information in three minutes. So why would Casey or anybody google chloroform 84 times? This doesn't make sense!!! If she wanted to get the child to sleep so she could go out partying, why not give her a bit of a PM or Benadryl?

 

[kimmera]

Respectfully snipped by me

I disagree, it's not that black and white. What would I need? Any evidence Casey actually manufactured chloroform would have been enough for me.

Well, if she didn't manufacture it, even after looking up how to do exactly that 84 times, how do you explain the high levels of this illegal substance in her trunk? :waitasec:

 

[Italy]

Out of curiosity I googled "how to make chloroform," and learned at the first site that only water, shock, ice, and acetone are needed. Everyone has water and ice, everyone who has a swimming pool has shock (a chemical to clear pool water,) and almost every woman has acetone nail polish remover. I got this information in three minutes. So why would Casey or anybody google chloroform 84 times? This doesn't make sense!!! If she wanted to get the child to sleep so she could go out partying, why not give her a bit of a PM or Benadryl?

I believe that if you are using tabs - each time you go from one tab to another it is recorded as a new "search". Also, Firefox opens a new tab for each search - so that would mean 2 tabs are recorded as the initial search.

She probably bounced back and forth from the "chloroform" tab to her Facebook/Myspace as well as to others during the time she was researching how to make chloroform.

The actual number of searches was probably far fewer than 84 but that is how a computer records it. Makes you wonder why the Defense team didn't point this out -- although I guess one search for how to make chloroform is pretty damning (especially coupled with the high concentration of chloroform found in the trunk).

 

[GeekyGirl]

Well, if she didn't manufacture it, even after looking up how to do exactly that 84 times, how do you explain the high levels of this illegal substance in her trunk? :waitasec:

Respectfully, there's a really long post from me further up the thread that details my reasoning. I'd type it out again, but there's a beach bonfire and fireworks calling my name, so I'm going to spend the evening with family and friends and count each and every one of my blessings.

 

[kimmera]

I'm confused about the felony murder (1st degree) charge. If Caylee was put in the trunk for any reason and died, if she was medicated for any reason other than her health and died, if the duct tape was put on her mouth for any reason and died...wouldn't all that be felony murder? How else could she have died other than an accident or felony murder that is reasonable to believe? Natural cause and suicide are not reasonable IMO. So if she didn't die as the result of an act of child abuse, premeditated murder or accident what is reasonable to conclude? Obviously I'm confused and just hope this makes sense.

BBM~

IANAL, but my understanding is that yes, any possible permutation of those things would be felony murder, because they all would be considered aggravated child abuse, which, when it results in death, constitutes felony murder in the state of Florida. I hope I am understanding it right.

My understanding is that the jury does not have to unanimously agree on the COD to render a guilty verdict. Even the ME could not determine the exact COD. One could think that she died from the heat in trunk, one could think she was suffocated with the duct tape, and the rest could believe that she was poisoned with the chloroform, and all could render a guilty verdict because any of those things would be considered aggravated child abuse.

I am amazed that there are some that think that if she did any of those things and they accidentally caused her death, that she should not be convicted of murder. It doesn't matter if it was accidental (which I personally do not believe it was) if the jury believes that Caylee died from any of those things, she is guilty of felony murder.

All of the forensic evidence and subsequent behavior of ICA point to this being premeditated, IMO. The accidental drowning theory is a fairy tale. There is no way she would have sat in jail for three years if it was an accident. :twocents::twocents::twocents:

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

I was following this case more closely at the beginning and does anyone else remember Casey's diary? There was something that came out very early on (might have been before Caylee was found) that mentioned something like, "I give life and I can take life away." I thought that to be very damning and narcissistic and to me, that spoke to me her guilt more than some of the other factors. I don't think this ever came up at the trial. Maybe this belongs in a different thread but to me, it speaks to it not being an accident.

 

[cluciano63]

I was following this case more closely at the beginning and does anyone else remember Casey's diary? There was something that came out very early on (might have been before Caylee was found) that mentioned something like, "I give life and I can take life away." I thought that to be very damning and narcissistic and to me, that spoke to me her guilt more than some of the other factors. I don't think this ever came up at the trial. Maybe this belongs in a different thread but to me, it speaks to it not being an accident.

There was no clear way to validate what year the entries dated in "June" were from or I am sure they would have...

Also:
As far as the searches-I am not convinced, between the 2 computer experts, that 84 searches were done...I think there was some room for doubt about that part, JMO.

 

[Zak]

When the remains were found, the skin was gone, so the tape was no longer stuck to the 'face' because it had decomposed fully. But it was still stuck to the hair. It would not be stuck to the skull because it never was stuck to the skull because the skin was in the way.

How do we know it was ONCE stuck to the face? Because the mandible was still in place, and would not be unless it had been fastened in some way, like with tape.

That tape could not have been used to close the garbage bags because it would
fully melted together in that florida heat and the heat of the trunk. imo

Bravo:aktion: Wonderful post. Thank you!

 

[Nova24]

The 84 searches or even if there was 1 search really make no difference to me. I think State should make that point that it doesn't matter how many were done just that they were done. It's a good point to make. How to make chloro and then your daughter being deceased and chloro being found doesn't seem like a coincedence to me.

I don't think any will believe she drowned so I think they then look at chloro and duct and see who believes what and how much. I also don't think the sex abuse is going to factor into anything. I think that would be more relevent at penalty phase but as she lies so much I don't think anything she sees would be believable.

I would still try and make last minute plea. Even with 30 years she would still get out and have some life to live.

 

[Who_What_When]

Out of curiosity I googled "how to make chloroform," and learned at the first site that only water, shock, ice, and acetone are needed. Everyone has water and ice, everyone who has a swimming pool has shock (a chemical to clear pool water,) and almost every woman has acetone nail polish remover. I got this information in three minutes. So why would Casey or anybody google chloroform 84 times? This doesn't make sense!!! If she wanted to get the child to sleep so she could go out partying, why not give her a bit of a PM or Benadryl?

From what I understand the Anthony's didn't put Chlorine in there pool and as far as the acetone in nail polish, a lot of nail polishes don't have acetone in them anymore. I agree with you on the PM or Benadryl, I have always thought that it would be A LOT easier for Casey to give her some OTC medicine rather than mixing chloroform.

 

[Who_What_When]

I'm confused about the felony murder (1st degree) charge. If Caylee was put in the trunk for any reason and died, if she was medicated for any reason other than her health and died, if the duct tape was put on her mouth for any reason and died...wouldn't all that be felony murder? How else could she have died other than an accident or felony murder that is reasonable to believe? Natural cause and suicide are not reasonable IMO. So if she didn't die as the result of an act of child abuse, premeditated murder or accident what is reasonable to conclude? Obviously I'm confused and just hope this makes sense.

According to Statute 782.04 ("Murder"), Florida defines first-degree murder as an act "perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person or any human being." The charge may also be applied to a person who is engaged in the perpetration of arson, sexual battery, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, aircraft piracy, narcotics trafficking, and numerous other felonies during which a person is killed. So, if a criminal robs a bank and kills a security guard during the act, he will be charged with first-degree murder. This act is a capital offense in Florida.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...2.04&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

 

[ColdDayIn]

I'm not going to argue the SP case here and my comment was snarkier than I intended, so I apologize. It was also probably hyperbolic, but my point was that there are differences in the case that are important. It's incredibly frustrating to have to argue the same points over and over, and concede time and time again that others are entitled to their opinion, and not be given the same respect by some (in general, not directed at the OP in particular) Having doubts about 1st degree does make me unreasonable, nor does it mean I lack common sense. I'm just trying to work my way through an incredibly emotional case, just like everyone else here.

I just have to hijack for one teensy little second and tell you that I absolutely love reading your posts. It doesn't matter what you post about, it always sounds so well written and you have refreshing pov's. Thanks!

 

[ColdDayIn]

The concept of felony murder is one that I didn't totally get at first either, so I understand where you are coming from.

Bear in mind that "murder" is not an act, it's a legal conclusion that the person convicted of it bears criminal responsibility for an unlawful death and must suffer the greatest consequences set for in the law for an unlawful death. If you see, with your own eyes, person A shoot person B you witness a homicide, it may be an act of murder but there's no way to actually know at the moment.

Murder, again, is a judgement of legal responsibility. If I contract with an assassin for the killing of someone and arrange for the killing to occur in the middle of the business day when I'm sitting in a meeting room with a dozen other people I'm still guilty of murder even though I never laid a hand on the victim, because my actions are what lead to the death of the victim.

What many talk about here is "premeditated" murder, which is a homicide that is planned in advance and carried out to completion past opportunities to stop the actions that result in the death of the victim. This is one of the most heinous acts that one can commit against their fellow man. For this we reserve the punishments of life in prison or execution.

What Casey is charged with is felony murder. This sounds redundant, as murder is a felony charge. What the charge actually means, however, is that a homicide resulted in close connection with ANOTHER felony. The homicide itself or any act intimately connected with the homicide, such as battery, cannot be the felony that qualifies.

Casey's qualifying felony (Florida has 16 possible) is aggravated child abuse. The State does not have to show that a specific act of child abuse resulted in Caylee's death, they need to show that Caylee was being abused as defined by the statute and ended up dead due, in some part, to a result of the abuse.

So if the State can show that Caylee was abused and the abuse lead to her death, then they have proven 1st degree murder. No premeditation is needed and does not have to be shown - she has not been charged that way. The State also does not have to show the precise mechanism of death, the precise time of death, and so forth. Most homicides occur with only the victim and perp present, to require the State to prove things that can only be known by the victim (who cannot speak) and the perp (who cannot be compelled to speak) would mean nobody could ever be convicted of murder if they do a little bit of planning. That's not how it works.

Is there any way you can sneak in the jury deliberation room and tell them all of this!! I would feel a lot better knowing they had such a good explanation of it all! :rocker:

 

[rossva]

"Shock" chemicals are most often not made of chlorine. By official definition, "shock" means to add a NON-CHLORINE compound (usually Potassium Peroxymonosulfate). The chlorine that the Anthony's did not add to their pool was daily maintenance chlorine. The pool maintenance chlorine, by the way, is just a stronger version of chlorine bleach, such as Chlorox.

From what I understand the Anthony's didn't put Chlorine in there pool and as far as the acetone in nail polish, a lot of nail polishes don't have acetone in them anymore. I agree with you on the PM or Benadryl, I have always thought that it would be A LOT easier for Casey to give her some OTC medicine rather than mixing chloroform.

 

[SarahEcho]

I haven't spent a lot of time on all the ups and downs with the case over the last three years. I just did not take a stance on what I heard in particular, other than to take some mental notes that the family was was not riding on all four wheels before all this happened and blew out the rest of the tires.

What bothers me as an "unseated juror" is that the evidence presented reminds me of novels I used to read when I was young that gave the reader a choice to choose what happens next to the character. The character finds it raining heavily and comes upon a house that doesn't look occupied but seems ominous. Character X goes in, turn to page 30. Character X decides it's not worth the risk and goes on their way to find other shelter, turn to page 42. The process continues, leaving you with quite a number of different story lines in the same book with different conclusions. I feel like I'm locked into one of those books.

The state just hasn't laid out a case that allows 12 people to be able to agree on which page to turn to next.

 

[Nova24]

WWW-Do you have the statue for Agg Chil Abuse in Florida by any chance? TY.

 

[SarahEcho]

http://www.criminaldefenseattorneytampa.com/PracticeAreas/DomesticViolenceBattery/ChildAbuse.aspx

Aggravated Child Abuse (Aggravated Battery) Florida Statutes Section § 827.03

Aggravated Child Abuse is a felony in the first degree punishable by 30 years in Florida State Prison. In order to prove the crime of Aggravated Child Abuse by committing Aggravated Battery upon a child, the prosecutor for the State of Florida must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt. The first element is a definition of battery.
The Defendant committed a battery against the child by intentionally striking the child against the child's will causing harm to the child;
While committing the battery, the Defendant did one of the following:
Intentionally or knowingly caused victim either great bodily harm; permanent disability; or permanent disfigurement; or
Used a deadly weapon, which is defined as a weapon used or threatened to be used in a way likely to produce death or great bodily harm.

Aggravated Child Abuse:

A person who commits aggravated child abuse commits a felony of the first degree punishable by 30 years in Florida State Prison. "Aggravated child abuse" can also occur when a person:
Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages a child; or
Knowingly or willfully abuses a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.