Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[Nova24]

LOL! I know how you feel. My mom is just as into this as I am so I can call her and we talk about it, but my husband thinks I'm nuts! He and my son know a lot more than they wanted to know about this case. Poor guys! :floorlaugh:

My mom is into it too!! I got her hooked because she has an injury right now so it gives her something to watch and then we can chat about it. My hubby is signing me into a mental facility. lol

 

[katydid23]

LOL I know the feeling. Seriously, my boyfriend threatened to hide my phone and iPad from me because I kept sneaking off to check WS when I supposed to be organizing tools Thankfully I made myself leave them at home and enjoyed a wonderful beach bonfire, fireworks and enough food to feed an army. Now he's passed out (no chloroform involved, promise ) and I can post to my heart's content!

Ah, but was there duct tape?

I did a similar thing. My DH and I went to do some errands and then to dinner at his fave BBQ joint. I wanted to have a good excuse for doing nothing all day tomorrow. LOL

 

[smartsass]

There's a post earlier in thread where I considered how hard it would be to suffocate a conscious child with duct tape.I'm sorry, I just can't type it again, it was too hard.

I thought the same thing until I came across these stories and I'm guessing there's more where these came from, I found these with just a brief Google search.

Cases of suffocation from duct tape:

Kenisha Barry, killed 4-day old son Malachi, bound face and arms with duct tape
http://www.tdcaa.com/node/1480


Man suffocated with duct tape after robber wraps it around his head
[ame="http://www.newnation.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=113250"]Nigra Kills Video Store Manager; Suffocated With Duct Tape - NNN Reporters Newsroom Forum[/ame]

Man suffocates woman with duct tape
http://www.ksat.com/news/19263389/detail.html

 

[Nova24]

My plan for tomorrow is picking up bagel sandwiches which hubby loves and the Yankee/Mets game during the day. I figured I could watch and jump on here. Tomorrow night will be dinner out and watching fireworks from my house with friends. I can then sneak and check in here but after court ends we will be pretty much done for the night so we get a break. lol

 

[kimmera]

Has the defense raised any reasonable doubt? IMO, they have not. Not only have they not raised reasonable doubt, but they have actually helped me, personally, better understand how evil Casey Anthony actually is.

This will be a long post, do bare with me please.

Respectfully snipped for brevity...

OMG! You nailed it! I want YOU to do the closing arguments. Amazing post! Thanks! :rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker:

 

[GeekyGirl]

Ah, but was there duct tape?

I did a similar thing. My DH and I went to do some errands and then to dinner at his fave BBQ joint. I wanted to have a good excuse for doing nothing all day tomorrow. LOL

LOL no duct tape either... Just a long day of cleaning and too much food. I've already warned him that my butt will be planted in front of the TV tomorrow... I'm kind of excited because I've watched most of the trial from the TV in my office, so I won't know what to do when I'm not constantly being interrupted by work. Try as I might, I can't convince them that the trial is more important than our upcoming Joint Commission inspection. I wonder if there's any guidelines as to what snack foods are the most appropriate for viewing closing arguments?

 

[Who_What_When]

I'm really looking forward to the closing arguments and hoping that the SA brings it all together. Like I've said in many of my previous posts, I'm not completely sold on the duct tape or chloroform as being the cause of how Caylee died, but that also means I'm not totally unsold! I just find it a stretch and look forward to hearing their theory on what happened that day. Until then...goodnight all!

 

[GeekyGirl]

I'm really looking forward to the closing arguments and hoping that the SA brings it all together. Like I've said in many of my previous posts, I'm not completely sold on the duct tape or chloroform as being the cause of how Caylee died, but that also means I'm not totally unsold! I just find it a stretch and look forward to hearing their theory on what happened that day. Until then...goodnight all!

Goodnight!!

 

[dkatiemom]

I am curious...when the verdict is read, does it begin with the biggest charge and go down from there? Sorry, I am somewhat new to this.

 

[ami]

Respectfully snipped by me

I disagree, it's not that black and white. What would I need? Any evidence Casey actually manufactured chloroform would have been enough for me.

Since it is made with two ingredients commonly found in homes with pools, my guess is that absent a home video made of her mixing the two ingredients and administering them to her daughter, having that kind of evidence would be nearly impossible if she did the bare minimum to toss the bowl / jar/ container in the household trash and let a month go by.

I mean certainly the ideal evidence with the greatest degree of certainty is a confession accompanied by a video and six eye witnesses. However people who choose to kill rarely leave such ideal evidence. So while chloroform leavings left next to the bed with ICA's fingerprints on them, notes in her handwriting and one of Caylee's hairs in it of course seems like the gold standard, if all juries went by that we'd have very few murderers in jail and many more on the streets.

Real murders that occur within families rarely leave evidence as strong as ICA's (suspect searches for how to make a potentially deadly sedative, traces of that deadly sedative subsequently found in the suspect's car next to traces of a dead body). So asking for evidence even stronger than the uncommonly strong evidence already left seems pretty unrealistic.

 

[ami]

They were able to determine that there was evidence of antemortem trauma on Laci's body.

Rib breaking doesn't equal a cause of death (and they weren't sure if it was before, during or after death anyway) - so again, even the dimmest criminal like Scott didn't leave a perfect solid line pointing to him. He left a dotted line pointing to him, and the jury had to fill in the blanks to follow the dots.

 

[donnam]

Even if it was an accident did Casey handle this right? Casey took LE on a wild goose chase, basically made fools of them. Cindy had to literally go and find Casey, Casey was sleeping around, screwing and tattoing as one famous lawyer is now saying.... She's seen shopping and renting movies..........is this the way a normal mother acts if her child died due to an accident (or any other way of death) for that matter.
And it may not be the law but if this is how she acted over an accidental death then IMO she at least deserves LWOP. She threw her child away like trash...could anything else be more dispicable????

BBM

IMO no matter what the actual "cause of death" was, she should get LWOP just for that!

 

[GeekyGirl]

Since it is made with two ingredients commonly found in homes with pools, my guess is that absent a home video made of her mixing the two ingredients and administering them to her daughter, having that kind of evidence would be nearly impossible if she did the bare minimum to toss the bowl / jar/ container in the household trash and let a month go by.

I mean certainly the ideal evidence with the greatest degree of certainty is a confession accompanied by a video and six eye witnesses. However people who choose to kill rarely leave such ideal evidence. So while chloroform leavings left next to the bed with ICA's fingerprints on them, notes in her handwriting and one of Caylee's hairs in it of course seems like the gold standard, if all juries went by that we'd have very few murderers in jail and many more on the streets.

Real murders that occur within families rarely leave evidence as strong as ICA's (suspect searches for how to make a potentially deadly sedative, traces of that deadly sedative subsequently found in the suspect's car next to traces of a dead body). So asking for evidence even stronger than the uncommonly strong evidence already left seems pretty unrealistic.

Respectfully, I think uncommonly strong is a bit of a stretch. Did you read my post about why I'm uncomfortable about the chloroform evidence?

ETA: Why would people with pools have pure acetone?

 

[GeekyGirl]

Rib breaking doesn't equal a cause of death (and they weren't sure if it was before, during or after death anyway) - so again, even the dimmest criminal like Scott didn't leave a perfect solid line pointing to him. He left a dotted line pointing to him, and the jury had to fill in the blanks to follow the dots.

And IMO the dots are much further apart in this case. I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree.

 

[aeneas1]

Here is what convinced me and many others that SP was guilty:

His wife was 8 and 1/2 months pregnant, it was Christmas Eve, and he decides to leave her all alone, to go fishing, with the wrong kind of lures, in the frigid SF bay. I grew up in the Bay Area. NOBODY goes by themselves out in that freezing, choppy water in the middle of the winter. There is no reason anyone would do so, let alone someone with a wife about to give birth, who is sitting home alone, , 2 hours away, on Christmas Eve.
Then he comes home and mops up and does a load of laundry? While she is still missing?
Add Amber Frey to the mix and people were convinced of his guilt. imoo

i live in the sf bay area but didn't follow the case at all, although it was obviously very big news here. your post reminded me of something that i think often gets lost in the discussion and that's the utterly devastating impact an unbelievable alibi has on a defendant's case. when the forensic dust settles, and the dna and fiber comparisons are put to rest, i think a jury always returns to what is most simple: did the story the defendant gave to investigators make sense, was it believable, could it be backed up. in sp's and ica's case, the answer is a resounding no.

 

[kimmera]

Since it is made with two ingredients commonly found in homes with pools, my guess is that absent a home video made of her mixing the two ingredients and administering them to her daughter, having that kind of evidence would be nearly impossible if she did the bare minimum to toss the bowl / jar/ container in the household trash and let a month go by.

I mean certainly the ideal evidence with the greatest degree of certainty is a confession accompanied by a video and six eye witnesses. However people who choose to kill rarely leave such ideal evidence. So while chloroform leavings left next to the bed with ICA's fingerprints on them, notes in her handwriting and one of Caylee's hairs in it of course seems like the gold standard, if all juries went by that we'd have very few murderers in jail and many more on the streets.

Real murders that occur within families rarely leave evidence as strong as ICA's (suspect searches for how to make a potentially deadly sedative, traces of that deadly sedative subsequently found in the suspect's car next to traces of a dead body). So asking for evidence even stronger than the uncommonly strong evidence already left seems pretty unrealistic.

BBM~

Exactly! IMO, there is A LOT more evidence of premeditation in this case than there was in the SP case. From what I have read, MOST murder cases are largely circumstantial. In this case, the searches for 'how to make chloroform' coupled with the PRESENCE of chloroform in a contained area that the child's body was essentially proven to BE in is a SLAM DUNK IMO.

The state's evidence is very compelling, IMO, and the defense did nothing to raise 'reasonable' doubt as far as I am concerned. Obviously, we will know if it was enough when the jury comes back. I am saying mad prayers for the PT, that they will continue to bring absolute brilliance and professionalism tomorrow! Justice for Caylee is coming soon! :twocents:

 

[aeneas1]

In a felony murder charge the additional qualifying felony produces the same result that premeditation would - murder, first degree. Not all jurisdictions have felony murder available.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_first_degree.html

yep, gotcha.

 

[donnam]

Respectfully snipped by me

I disagree, it's not that black and white. What would I need? Any evidence Casey actually manufactured chloroform would have been enough for me.

BBM

The fact that she even looked up "How to make chloroform" AND high levels were in HER car is evidence enough for me.

 

[donnam]

Quoting myself.

After some googling on the above question I found that the jaw will stay in tact until after rigor mortis which can last 72 hours. After rigor mortis, the body starts decomposition. So, there COULD have been potentially 3 days for the duct tape to be added after death.

But what about rigor mortis? After death, the joints and muscles stiffen in a condition known as rigor mortis. How soon it begins and how long this lasts depends on temperature and other factors. Onset is from 10 minutes to several hours, beginning with facial muscles. Greatest stiffness may be 12-48 hours after death, and rigor mortis may last up to 72 hours. The bottom line is that the muscles remain contracted until they start decomposing.

If the State was presenting that as their cause of death, why didn't the DT do more to refute that fact.

She was most likely in full rigor while in the truck of the car.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Quoting myself.

After some googling on the above question I found that the jaw will stay in tact until after rigor mortis which can last 72 hours. After rigor mortis, the body starts decomposition. So, there COULD have been potentially 3 days for the duct tape to be added after death.

But what about rigor mortis? After death, the joints and muscles stiffen in a condition known as rigor mortis. How soon it begins and how long this lasts depends on temperature and other factors. Onset is from 10 minutes to several hours, beginning with facial muscles. Greatest stiffness may be 12-48 hours after death, and rigor mortis may last up to 72 hours. The bottom line is that the muscles remain contracted until they start decomposing.

If the State was presenting that as their cause of death, why didn't the DT do more to refute that fact.

In my opinion it is a bit silly to suggest that ICA decided to gag her dead baby.

It is even more ridiculous to conclude that someone decided to cover up an accident by making it appear to be murder.