Heart-Shaped Sticker On Tape Over Caylee's Mouth

[trac]

I don't think the heart and Winnie the Pooh will prove the malice. However, the web searches, chloroform in the trunk of the car, etc. will prove the malice side of things.

I believe whats happening is that not ONE item will prove malice - it will be a number of items, a number of actions, a number of conversations ALL put together that LEAD up to malice and forethought

To those who are arguing that one thing can't prove malice is arguing fantasy - hey I can argue that you went by a gas station and you put on your turn signal to turn yet you turned after the gas station - I can argue that your intent was to go into the gas station - BUT I can't because there will be other factors to consider your intent

The same with individual items here

So keep arguing fantasy

 

[impatientredhead]

The point has been and remains that prosecutors are not claiming that Casey died as a result of aggravated child abuse. Rather, they claim she died from a premediatated murder. So they charged her that way. They did not charge her with felony murder.

Just so you understand, theoretically, once jurors begin their deliberations, they could decide that Caylee died from aggravated child abuse and find Casey guilty on that charge. However, they could not find her guilty of felony-murder, because prosecutors have not charged Casey with felony-murder.

(Jurors are not able to convict on non-existent charges.)

This is NOT true. The options will be outlined in the jury instructions and they are frequently given other options to equal or lesser crimes if the judge allows it.

Not to mention a trial date has not been set and as you are well aware as the evidence changes the specific charge can as well.

 

[Wudge]

Thanks, Wudge. I see how the blanket and sticker can be argued both ways. They probably won't matter much in the case unless there is physical evidence on them. The defense would have to admit that Casey committed the act that caused Caylee's death in order for them to even argue that the presence of the blanket and sticker were there as a sign of love or concern.

Jurors are free to consider the evidence outside the storylines told by the defense and prosecutors. They often do just that.

 

[TSPnc]

The point has been and remains that prosecutors are not claiming that Casey died as a result of aggravated child abuse. Rather, they claim she died from a premediatated murder. So they charged her that way. They did not charge her with felony murder.

Just so you understand, theoretically, once jurors begin their deliberations, they could decide that Caylee died from aggravated child abuse and find Casey guilty on that charge. However, they could not find her guilty of felony-murder, because prosecutors have not charged Casey with felony-murder.

(Jurors are not able to convict on non-existent charges.)

Since the discovery of the body can the prosection go back to the Grand Jury and charge her accordingly or how "in a nutshell" could these charges be brought?

 

[Mamabear1963]

For those of us that don't know the definition of Malice aforethought:

MALICE AFORETHOUGHT, KILL WITH - To kill either deliberately and intentionally or recklessly with extreme disregard for human life.

So this has to be proved for 1st degree murder charge in FL?

I know I am no lawyer...but it does seem that Casey had a disregard for human life...Caylee was her pet and her toy...until she got too old.

Okay, maybe the prosecution can't USE the sticker and the blanket to prove malice...but I don't think it disproves it either. IMO

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I don't find that to be intuitively obvious at all. In fact I find it to be a stretch. Being wrapped in the Pooh blanket to me indicates it was near her when she died. The sticker could be indicative of a twisted sense of humor, sociopaths are not known for their ability to communicate their feelings. The blanket and the laundry hamper bag indicate to me that she died in the house and left in those items. Convenience, not care. The fact that the items are "cute" is logical since they belonged to a TWO YEAR OLD.

I would have to agree with you. Casey is all about convenience even with where she dumped the body. Care doesn't appear to be a factor with her. The toy or toys were probably laying on the blanket with her.

The stickers were probably within arm's reach, but it doesn't explain to me when or where she got the duct tape. Did she have to go to the kitchen or the garage? Did she keep the duct tape in her room for crafts or something else (people do make things out of duct tape)?

If the clothes she was wearing or they found in the bag with her were not pajamas, does it mean the murder took place before bedtime on the 15th or during the day on the 16th? The other things indicate she was in her room or in the home...but with the convenience factor...she would be in or near her bed at the time. It is inconsistent with the clothing, imo. I am anxious to hear from Cindy what she was wearing to bed the night of the 15th (when she supposedly tucked them in) and in the hours after leaving the nursing center.

 

[Origrammi]

No. Malice is a distinct element that is separate from intent. You can intend to kill someone without malice.

The second definition in MW is;

2 : intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse

Even an accidental death during the commission of an unlawful act seems to me would fall under the meaning of Malice.

What if you intend to kill someone but pain and suffering isn't part of your plan? If there is pain and suffering just as an 'aside' during the killing doesn't that bump up the severity of the crime?

You could claim it wasn't anything personal, the pain and suffering was an unintended outcome.

I've always wondered how anyone could stab another person 7 times, or shoot them twice in the head and NOT imagine death would be a likely outcome. As in 'the suspect was charged with assault' rather than attempted murder.

I guess I need to go to law school.

 

[Wudge]

This is NOT true. The options will be outlined in the jury instructions and they are frequently given other options to equal or lesser crimes if the judge allows it.

Not to mention a trial date has not been set and as you are well aware as the evidence changes the specific charge can as well.

I spoke to the current set of charges, and what I said against the current set of charges is absolutely true.

It's true too that prosecutors could change the current set of charges between now and the time that jury instructions are handed down.

If you hope to see a conviction on felony-murder, that charge would need to be added so that jurors could deliberate on that charge.

HTH

 

[Devon]

The tongue often swells and protrudes after death so it's possible the duct tape was applied to push it back in, and the heart applied afterwards to make it look less 'gag-like'.

 

[yolorado]

The police gave KC the 'accident out' early. She ABSOLUTELY denied it on tape. KC has never said there was an accident. And why wouldn't she, if that's what happened? Why would she throw her baby away if she died accidentally? And again, she's told so many, many lies to friends, family and strangers, that anything she says at this point is unlikely to be believed.

 

[eddeva]

Jurors are free to consider the evidence outside the storylines told by the defense and prosecutors. They often do just that.

yes but there isn't any evidence of an accident (i don't think caylee's body is evidence of an accident). can they consider things they, well, basically make up?

 

[ROBLYN]

You know I keep thinking about this, and you just don't decorate duct tape that was put on someone to kill them; unless you are just insane. I use stickers in some of my artwork, I know why I am using them, but to put myself in her shoes; I can't. I think; and this is only a thought, that she used the chloroform to up her under, so she wouldn't fight her, then used the tape to end her life. I think she would have been in a state of shock and sort of out of it and just put a sticker there, like a final kiss good-bye. I can't imagine how else she would do this. They had to be at the house where Caylee's stickers would be and her toys and blanket and things. I try to run thought this in my head and ya know, it just doesn't add up, yet I know she did this.

Good Morning Bern,

That is what i have been thinking all night. Oh Gosh... i have a tremendous amount of empathy for people that live with mental illness, i just keep thinking she is a Spiteful B%#@&. I am afraid that Insanity is all that the defense has left, in fact what other reason would JB have to request these motons that we are seeing. Last night the TH were saying "LE leaks"...but these documents are not leaks, they were all requested by JB and crew. Why? :furious: poor Caylee.

 

[j10477]

Does anyone know where iIcan find the documents with the reciepts showing what was rented from blockbuster ?


In my opinion only

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Don't we have a thread to discuss the legal aspects of this case or do we need to start another thread to discuss the issue of the sticker and duct tape without the legal analysis?

 

[Wudge]

The second definition in MW is;

SNIP

What if you intend to kill someone but pain and suffering isn't part of your plan? If there is pain and suffering just as an 'aside' during the killing doesn't that bump up the severity of the crime?

SNIP

I've always wondered how anyone could stab another person 7 times, or shoot them twice in the head and NOT imagine death would be a likely outcome. As in 'the suspect was charged with assault' rather than attempted murder.

SNIP

Pain and suffering can work both ways. Not infrequently, spouses end the life of a beloved one, because they wanted to end the terrible pain and suffering and agony that their loved one was experiencing.

As to stabbing another person seven times and shooting them twice in the head without expecting them to die, that would strongly suggest an insanity defense (or a twinkie defense) to me.

 

[Skully]

I would have to agree with you. Casey is all about convenience even with where she dumped the body. Care doesn't appear to be a factor with her. The toy or toys were probably laying on the blanket with her.

The stickers were probably within arm's reach, but it doesn't explain to me when or where she got the duct tape. Did she have to go to the kitchen or the garage? Did she keep the duct tape in her room for crafts or something else (people do make things out of duct tape)?

If the clothes she was wearing or they found in the bag with her were not pajamas, does it mean the murder took place before bedtime on the 15th or during the day on the 16th? The other things indicate she was in her room or in the home...but with the convenience factor...she would be in or near her bed at the time. It is inconsistent with the clothing, imo. I am anxious to hear from Cindy what she was wearing to bed the night of the 15th (when she supposedly tucked them in) and in the hours after leaving the nursing center.

I posted back a few, that I try to run this past in my head. You are right, about the things being in arms reach. I agree, but the duct tape and chloroform arn't just laying around. And we are pretty sure this happened in the house, maybe Caylee's room. So what if KC had the duct tape in the garage, and the chloroform hidden in a jar in the garage or her room. That makes this even more deliberate. She has to make several trips to get what she needs to kill Caylee, then maybe after her rages subsides, she puts the sticker on her and just throws things into a bag to make it look as if there were things the Nanny would have. Some things have to be gone if you are taking your child to leave with the Nanny. So CA would think the blanket was one of the things Zanny may have at her place. Just a guess.

 

[ROBLYN]

Don't we have a thread to discuss the legal aspects of this case or do we need to start another thread to discuss the issue of the sticker and duct tape without the legal analysis?

Seriously,

Sorry- will find it

 

[yolorado]

yes but there isn't any evidence of an accident (i don't think caylee's body is evidence of an accident). can they consider things they, well, basically make up?

That's the rub for the defense. The little bones may be somewhat lacking to prove murder, but they certainly don't prove accident either...especially thrown away like they were in a garbage bag.

 

[Wudge]

yes but there isn't any evidence of an accident (i don't think caylee's body is evidence of an accident). can they consider things they, well, basically make up?

Jurors can only consider the evidence presented at trial.

 

[ThoughtElf]

SS, why not keep this thread for it's intended purpose, start a legal 'discussion of charges & burden of proof' thread and see if the discussion migrates appropriately?