Holly Bobo, missing from TN 2014 discussion #3 ***ARREST***

[Wonless]

Imo, Wonless, it may be a little too soon to conclude that they have bungled this case. Imo, now that the main players have been charged and incarcerated. I feel that the critical tips are flowing in, that may not have been received previously due to the fear of intimidation or retaliation.

There has been a tremendous amount of investigative resources utilized in the 3 year HB investigation to bungle it now, imo.

FYI - Interesting article & stats of prior DP cases prosecuted in TN
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/oct/16/jesse-mathews-may-face-death-sentence/

Your right about it being to soon to conclude. Just a feeling, for example, the press conference they didn't give the impression of being on the same page about all the aspects of the case, but it could just be that Mark Gwen is only a spokeperson/PR guy and may not know many details. Also the immunity deal with SA coming apart and the fact that JA was charged a month later than ZA. Even in prison, JA could have heard about ZA being charged and gotten a message out to some other person to destory evidence or move the body because somebody in the gang was turning over.

In the end it won't be clear until we see what evidence that happened, and we should be optimistic about the prosecution, but it makes me think things are not going well if there are people involved still on the streets making moves. That's not really clear at this point either.

 

[Wonless]

Interesting raw police video here of SA being arrested for DUI in Aug 2009

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...harged-expected-shayne-kyle-austin-tennessee/

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That still leaves me thinking....why? There is still a motive missing. Career criminals or not, to jump from crimes to brutal murder is still a jump up.

Hi everyone!:seeya: I have missed posting with you all but I have been so wrapped up in the horrible crime and kidnapping that has happened in my own state of Georgia.

I don't think the motive is missing. I think the motive is as clear as the nose on our face.

Many of us here have long seen this same type pattern play out. In many cases involving victimization of a defenseless young woman there was also a violent criminal history in many of those suspects as well but never murder or rape before then.

The police have often said that a lot of criminals like this will elevate their violence until it reaches the level of extremely violent crimes such as kidnapping, rape, and murder.

The majority who do crimes just like this have a criminal background including violence against other females. This gang fits the profile to a tee.

There is no leap. They just went on to more violent crimes.

If that were really a factor then the only ones who would fit the profile would only be those who have done the same acts before when in truth there is a first time for every crime.

Their background definitely shows they are into violence and victimization of women....even including Adams' own grandmother, step-sister, and mother.

Criminal history doesn't ever mean that the crimes will always stay the same and never elevate. We know they do elevate. We have seen it where it happened in countless cases right here being discussed on WS

Perhaps the elevation of violence comes out of boredom and wanting something more titillating...........combined with the pack mentality of a group of meth heads.

There have been suspects who had no criminal history whatsoever in their past but they darn sure were proven guilty BARD of raping and murdering young women.

So it isn't a leap to me at all.........they just elevated their violence which is very common in thugs like this.

All the A-Train ever bragged about to everyone was how they raped Holly repeatedly and tortured her before she died. The truth lays with those who ran their mouths. That is the sole purpose of the kidnapping, rape IMO, and murder.....they all made it perfectly clear why they kidnapped Holly.

IMO

 

[Foxfire]

Hi everyone!:seeya: I have missed posting with you all but I have been so wrapped up in the horrible crime and kidnapping that has happened in my own state of Georgia.

I don't think the motive is missing. I think the motive is as clear as the nose on our face.

Many of us here have long seen this same type pattern play out. In many cases involving victimization of a defenseless young woman there was also a violent criminal history in many of those suspects as well but never murder or rape before then.

The police have often said that a lot of criminals like this will elevate their violence until it reaches the level of extremely violent crimes such as kidnapping, rape, and murder.

The majority who do crimes just like this have a criminal background including violence against other females. This gang fits the profile to a tee.

There is no leap. They just went on to more violent crimes.

If that were really a factor then the only ones who would fit the profile would only be those who have done the same acts before when in truth there is a first time for every crime.

Their background definitely shows they are into violence and victimization of women....even including Adams' own grandmother, step-sister, and mother.

Criminal history doesn't ever mean that the crimes will always stay the same and never elevate. We know they do elevate. We have seen it where it happened in countless cases right here being discussed on WS

Perhaps the elevation of violence comes out of boredom and wanting something more titillating...........combined with the pack mentality of a group of meth heads.

There have been suspects who had no criminal history whatsoever in their past but they darn sure were proven guilty BARD of raping and murdering young women.

So it isn't a leap to me at all.........they just elevated their violence which is very common in thugs like this.

All the A-Train ever bragged about to everyone was how they raped Holly repeatedly and tortured her before she died. The truth lays with those who ran their mouths. That is the sole purpose of the kidnapping, rape IMO, and murder.....they all made it perfectly clear why they kidnapped Holly.

IMO

<BBM for Focus>

Oceanblueeyes, is there a ws thread for the Dermond murder/decapitation/kidnapping?

http://gawker.com/brutal-home-invasion-leaves-elderly-man-decapitated-wi-1573947984

 

[tlcya]

yes there is.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

<BBM for Focus>

Oceanblueeyes, is there a ws thread for the Dermond murder/decapitation/kidnapping?

http://gawker.com/brutal-home-invasion-leaves-elderly-man-decapitated-wi-1573947984

Sorry I haven't answered you before now. I have been celebrating Mother's Day early when three of our children and their families came to see me today. They will all be back tomorrow for lunch. My hubby always grills out to honor all the sweet beautiful moms we have in our family.

Yes, I think a lot of posters are having a hard time finding it because it has been put in the Missing Forum only because Shirley is missing and its really should be in Current Crimes and also in the Missing Forum section since it is both a murder of one and a kidnapping of another. Although I do believe Mrs. Dermond has been murdered also.

It has shocked Georgians beyond belief. Crime just doesn't happen in that community. I pray LE catches whoever has done this to Mr. and Mrs. Dermond and SOON!

OT:

Happy Mother's Day to all the wonderful WS special Moms! I hope each of your day is as special as all the moms here are to me. WS is like my second family.

Goodnight.:seeya:

 

[Tugela]

Tugela, General McAddams said no body' was found. Technically, this does not mean that other forensics evidence wasn't found during the ZA property search; partial remains, bone fragments, hair, or photos/videos, etc.

This may simply be a legal maneuver by the prosecutor utilizing semantics/legalese, to back out of the full immunity agreement, imo. I can't remember when an alleged conspirator in a kidnapping/murder was given full immunity by the prosecutor Imo, in a crime this heinous in nature. Taking the death penalty off of the table in lieu of LWOP, would have been sufficient to gain his cooperation, imo. This get out of jail free card offered him was entirely too generous, imo..

Double jeopardy wouldn't apply until and unless he was actually prosecuted, imo.

Double Jeopardy - 5th Amendment to the US Constitution
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/double_jeopardy

Double jeopardy would apply if he was charged and the charges dismissed. You don't require a trial. This is why it is important for LE to have rock solid evidence before starting the process. Once the ball is rolling, wherever it ends is the end of the case.

If they found evidence of homicide where he said they would, there would be no reason for them to back out of the immunity deal, particularly since his evidence would be critical in trial when it came to determining who was responsible. The only exit from the deal would be if there was nothing where he said there would be stuff. If there was nothing there, then his testimony is pretty much worthless. So, the fact that they want to potentially charge him as well tells me that they only have his statements, but the corroboration was missing when they went to look where he told them to.

That means that in all probability they only have the statements this guy made, and rumours, and without physical corroboration they are going to be in a tough spot evidentiary wise.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Double jeopardy would apply if he was charged and the charges dismissed. You don't require a trial. This is why it is important for LE to have rock solid evidence before starting the process. Once the ball is rolling, wherever it ends is the end of the case.

If they found evidence of homicide where he said they would, there would be no reason for them to back out of the immunity deal, particularly since his evidence would be critical in trial when it came to determining who was responsible. The only exit from the deal would be if there was nothing where he said there would be stuff. If there was nothing there, then his testimony is pretty much worthless. So, the fact that they want to potentially charge him as well tells me that they only have his statements, but the corroboration was missing when they went to look where he told them to.

That means that in all probability they only have the statements this guy made, and rumours, and without physical corroboration they are going to be in a tough spot evidentiary wise.

AFAIK, the tests results from potential bone fragments found are not back yet. Also, the family was given proof of death. So, LE has something evidentiary wise.

I am glad that the DA is trying to have the plea deal rescinded. I bet SA turned out to be more involved than he led LE to believe. They all need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

:moo: :moo: :moo:

 

[SteveS]

My apologies if this has already been addressed. I am far behind the conversation and reading my way through to catch up on developments.

:seeya: I agree ... I think [Autry] might be "camo man" from Clint's description ... IIRC, 6' and 200 lb ?

:moo:

Who knows. But he's not any closer to that description than ZA is.

Autry, from his mug shot, is 6-8, a height that seemingly would have been quite distinguishing.

 

[SteveS]

My apologies if this point has already been made. I am far behind the conversation and reading my way through to catch up on developments.

Update with Shayne's answer to DA pulling the deal.

As first reported by the Jackson Sun, Evans says Austin signed an agreement to testify against the other accused killers in exchange for immunity from prosecutors, but the district attorney emailed Evans that the deal was off.

In a statement to Channel 4 News late Tuesday, Evans said:

"My client takes issue with the state's assertion that he was untruthful and not forthcoming. My client has remained in full compliance with the agreement he entered into with the state of Tennessee. I expect them to honor his agreement. We're set to have a hearing on my client's request for an injunctive relief regarding the state's attempt to breach the immunity agreement next month."
Again, according to Evans, the district attorney's office says the immunity agreement was based on complete truthfulness, and the D.A. believes Austin lied about what happened.

JMO's

http://www.wsmv.com/story/25384921/...on-in-bobo-investigation#.U2BozcfpOm8.twitter

Re the immunity being withdrawn, one distinct possibility is that this is a power play. "You didn't give us what you said you would, and this is the result" is the visible action, but behind the scenes there may be discussions to still get what was promised.

And if we read what the original agreement entailed, we can guess what is missing.

It appears to me that LE believes the others did the kidnapping, the murder, and whatever was in between, and then he was enlisted after the fact to help dispose of the body after she was already dead. At least, that seems to be his story.

Now, combine that with the fact that they were very vocal on 4-29 that they did NOT find the body. Yet he had promised to tell them where it was. Bingo bango, after making that announcement, they file papers to remove immunity, because the body/remains are still unfound.

But what they really want is the body, and he really wants the deal. So I bet his potential cooperation with LE is still very much on the table.

There is, however, one wildcard in the deck that could impair his value. He may have told them what he knew, and done so honestly, and then the body got moved again later. If he can't lead them to the body, it can cast a bit of cloud on testimony that he helped dispose of it. He's certainly one of the "witnesses" they have, and if the only other one is Dylan, his credibility is quite important.

 

[SteveS]

My apologies if this has already been addressed. I am far behind the conversation and reading my way through to catch up on developments.

I am trying to tender my comments by saying it is totally ludicrous that this witness (Candace Wood) went to the trouble of contacting TBI the DAY AFTER HOLLY WAS ABDUCTED....she gave clear and confirmable testimony about a recent creepy event.....even was willing to submit to a sketch artist her remembrance of this freak....and TBI DID NOT PUT IT OUT TO THE PUBLIC!!!!!

It was obviously SA! My gosh....the A Gang were all connected to this! They are well known criminals! How could TBI let the ball drop like this? I mean, good grief...for all we know, Holly could have been alive on day 2!

You make some assumptions that may or may not be true - any one of which makes the anger misplaced.

Her report was, in essence: "Some guy was looking at us weirdly, a few days ago." They had a million tips to investigate, with limited resources to use. On this one, they may have even investigated, they may have even figured out who was the guy looking weirdly ...but any or all of that's certainly not enough to know he had anything to do with HB's disappearance (if indeed it was someone who did).

 

[SteveS]

Now, I believe that the prosecution is making him sweat (if he is capable) over a 1st degree murder/kidnapping charge w/DP in hopes of getting the location.

At this point, however, I think immunity should be off the table. Perhaps 2nd degree? Take the DP off the table?

The immunity was never for kidnapping, murder, or events in between, but instead was for events after her death and for all drug-related charges of other kinds.

I bet the "immunity off the table" angle is likely just a way to pressure him, and to get more info on her whereabouts, rather than some change in thinking that he was involved up front. Because, if their violation of agreement was over a belief he was involved in the big stuff, and if he's suddenly facing a murder count, he'd have been tossed in jail immediately. That didn't happen.

 

[Foxfire]

My apologies if this has already been addressed. I am far behind the conversation and reading my way through to catch up on developments.



You make some assumptions that may or may not be true - any one of which makes the anger misplaced.

Her report was, in essence: "Some guy was looking at us weirdly, a few days ago." They had a million tips to investigate, with limited resources to use. On this one, they may have even investigated, they may have even figured out who was the guy looking weirdly ...but any or all of that's certainly not enough to know he had anything to do with HB's disappearance (if indeed it was someone who did).

RE: a million tips with limited resources to use.

SteveS, the anger is not misplaced at all, imo. I can't remember another high profile abduction case where the tremendous amount of investigative resources were utilized; local, state, & federal, combined with a very large reward & ms media awareness.. Yet, a POI sketch was prepared, yet not shared/released to the public.. Imo, the most valuable investigative resource; The American Public, was squandered due to the 'us against them' antiquated silence & misinformation strategy by the TBI..

Ironically, a new team of TBI investigators were brought in from across the state to look at the investigative files(Fresh Eyes)...06/25/2011

Imo, the ball was dropped many, many times by investigators of multiple agencies, in the Holly Bobo abduction investigation.. Very Tragic...JMO Media Management, Communication, Data Management, and Analytical tools are critical resources that must be adhered too and utilized in serial and other high profile cases to insure a successful outcome, imo. We have witnessed many cases where valuable tips were ignored/overlooked by investigators due to the magnitude of tips submitted or the lack of perception that the tip is of importance to the investigation.

In the abduction/murders of Elizabeth Collins(10)/Lyric Cook(8)-(IA), a critical tip of a VOI reported by 3 different witnesses was overlooked by investigators for over a year. http://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/lyric-cook-and-elizabeth-collins/

Two decades ago(1st case where billboards were used) the following case grew cold due to overlooking a critical tip multiple times, by multiple Task Force investigators.. I could fill the page with examples of critical tips being ignored. This is a frequent error/common denominator in high profile investigations, imo...

Angels & Demons 1998 - "SUNSET" Pulitizer Prize- Thomas French(Jo Rogers & daughters abduction/murder/FL)
http://www.pulitzer.org/archives/7892

FBI 2006 Symposium
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

Holly Bobo: Investigation Active - Rumors of Case Went Cold Dispelled
http://www.examiner.com/article/hol...emains-active-rumors-case-went-cold-dispelled

 

[oceanblueeyes]

AFAIK, the tests results from potential bone fragments found are not back yet. Also, the family was given proof of death. So, LE has something evidentiary wise.

I am glad that the DA is trying to have the plea deal rescinded. I bet SA turned out to be more involved than he led LE to believe. They all need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

:moo: :moo: :moo:

What could have happened during the extensive search warrants is they found bone fragments of Holly but it wasn't in the location SA told them they would find them. They also could have uncovered perhaps video evidence taken inside of one of the homes that showed SA there in the middle of the crime participating as it was occurring before and after Holly died.

Imo, the DA sure has uncovered something important that shows SAs immunity deal should be rescinded.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

My apologies if this point has already been made. I am far behind the conversation and reading my way through to catch up on developments.



Re the immunity being withdrawn, one distinct possibility is that this is a power play. "You didn't give us what you said you would, and this is the result" is the visible action, but behind the scenes there may be discussions to still get what was promised.

And if we read what the original agreement entailed, we can guess what is missing.

It appears to me that LE believes the others did the kidnapping, the murder, and whatever was in between, and then he was enlisted after the fact to help dispose of the body after she was already dead. At least, that seems to be his story.

Now, combine that with the fact that they were very vocal on 4-29 that they did NOT find the body. Yet he had promised to tell them where it was. Bingo bango, after making that announcement, they file papers to remove immunity, because the body/remains are still unfound.

But what they really want is the body, and he really wants the deal. So I bet his potential cooperation with LE is still very much on the table.

There is, however, one wildcard in the deck that could impair his value. He may have told them what he knew, and done so honestly, and then the body got moved again later. If he can't lead them to the body, it can cast a bit of cloud on testimony that he helped dispose of it. He's certainly one of the "witnesses" they have, and if the only other one is Dylan, his credibility is quite important.

BBM

I think there are more witnesses than Austin and Dylan.

The TBI Director said at the last PC that the TBI has 'several' witnesses who have come forth now who saw Holly alive in Adams' house.

Since there can be credibility in numbers, I suspect there are several who are telling basically the same thing when they have been interviewed individually, and SAs statements made to LE does not line up with the others.

IMO

 

[Tugela]

AFAIK, the tests results from potential bone fragments found are not back yet. Also, the family was given proof of death. So, LE has something evidentiary wise.

I am glad that the DA is trying to have the plea deal rescinded. I bet SA turned out to be more involved than he led LE to believe. They all need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

:moo: :moo: :moo:

No, the conditions under which the deal could be retracted are clearly spelled out. Primarily, that the body, or evidence of the body, would have to be found where he said it would. Or, if the recovered evidence suggested that the body was placed there at some other time he said it was.

If they are talking about retracting the deal now it means they did not find any evidence to support his account.

 

[jggordo]

"The agreement was contingent upon Austin being &#8220;completely truthful, forthcoming and cooperative&#8221; in the investigation. The agreement was also void if investigators independently developed evidence or witnesses &#8212; other than any co-conspirators &#8212; that implicated Austin in a crime related to the Bobo case."

snipped for space

IMO, there are several ways for Austin to violate the agreement. The main one is him having the guts to tell the whole truth...all of it. That immunity agreement is full of holes for him to fall through, including his involvement in administering drugs to Holly or the act of kidnap or murder itself.

Tuesday the Chancery Court meets at 10:00 am I believe to rule hopefully on this issue. Good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise the GJ will meet shortly thereafter. If they play their cards just right there could be a PC by 4:00PM. I know patience is a virtue. LOL

JMO's

 

[oceanblueeyes]

"The agreement was contingent upon Austin being “completely truthful, forthcoming and cooperative” in the investigation. The agreement was also void if investigators independently developed evidence or witnesses — other than any co-conspirators — that implicated Austin in a crime related to the Bobo case."

snipped for space

IMO, there are several ways for Austin to violate the agreement. The main one is him having the guts to tell the whole truth...all of it. That immunity agreement is full of holes for him to fall through, including his involvement in administering drugs to Holly or the act of kidnap or murder itself.

JMO's

He doesn't have the guts to tell the entire truth because he knows if he does he is going down with Adams and Autry.

The reasons below are why his immunity deal is being rescinded.

The agreement was also void if investigators independently developed evidence or witnesses — other than any co-conspirators — that implicated Austin in a crime related to the Bobo case."

1. They have found independent evidence against SA proving what he told them is a lie about the true role he played in Holly's murder.
2. They have now found witnesses who aren't co-conspirators which are consistently telling the TBI that SA has fed the TBI a load of bull.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

No, the conditions under which the deal could be retracted are clearly spelled out. Primarily, that the body, or evidence of the body, would have to be found where he said it would. Or, if the recovered evidence suggested that the body was placed there at some other time he said it was.

If they are talking about retracting the deal now it means they did not find any evidence to support his account.

There is no indication that they even advanced that far with Austin when it came to them being shown where the body was located.

It doesn't have to have anything to do with finding her remains at all.

The deal is null and void now because the TBI has found independent evidence proving SA has lied and not been truthful or really cooperative.

It is null and void because the TBI has also found witnesses that are not co-conspirators in the case but ones who know what he did, and his full participation/role in the crimes against Holly.

The agreement clearly states what reasons have to take place for the deal to be null and void. Evidence and/or witnesses. Those two things are the reason his deal is going south.

IMO

 

[SteveS]

1 Re the removal of the immunity agreement, let's be clear on one thing: the issue of whether Austin has that specific immunity DOES NOT have anything to do with charging him with kidnapping, murder, or anything in between those events.

If the dishonesty they are accusing was about his involvement in those bigger crimes, they could and would have already locked him up.

The fact that he's still walking free tells us the nature of what they think of his involvement. They do NOT think he was involved in the kidnapping, murder, etc. (And, fwiw, that probably speaks negatively on the question of whether they thought he was stalking her at the coon hunt.)

2 Ocean, I respectfully disagree with your take that their decision to yank the immunity is because they have found other witnesses and don't need him. While it may (or may not) be true that they have plenty of added testimony, their written justification to remove the immunity is their assertion he's been less than honest.

3 I still think this "we're going to remove your immunity" is more about dramatic effect than anything. By their actions, they see him as a small fish here involved in relatively minor stuff (compared to kidnapping, murder, etc). They want something from him (or maybe they want to leave an impression on someone else), so they're playing this very public game with him, making him twist in the wind.

They may think he has more info, or has been dishonest. OR, they may want to make others think he's been dishonest. OR, they may want to put pressure on someone or another to step forward and confess. Or ....

There are all sorts of possible angles at play. I don't think what we're seeing tells the whole story at all.

They're trying to scare him into doing this or that. Or someone. IMO. And the lawsuit to prevent them from doing so is an attempt to keep them from aiming what I think is an unloaded gun at him, because I don't think that yanking immunity from him is a real goal of any sort for LE.