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Do we know the dimensions of the hatch opening on top of the tank? Perhaps bloating made it difficult to remove the body from above.

The only thing I can find thus far is this picture, where someone estimates the size of the opening by comparing it to the size of a 2"x4" length of wood beside it.

rcx4qjA.jpg



Heres a picture of the inside of the tank

2hqawjt.png






ETA: I found this in the Huffington Post

The opening at the top of the cistern is too small to accommodate firefighters and equipment, so they had to cut a hole in the storage tank to recover Lam's body.
 
My guess on the necessity to cut a hole would be similar to yours. If water is being removed from the tank by guests using it, her body would go be drawn towards the outlet hole, hence the water pressure issues being reported by guests, as part of her body was blocking/stuck in the pipe.


Elisa was 5'4' in height. According to this article, the water tank was 4.5' wide, therefore she could not have floated horizontally because she was too tall.

BBM. This make sense (imo), and... although I don't have a link there were a few msm reports stating her body was "wedged" in the tank. (I posted this info w/link ?some thread? previously).

** But (looking at the photos) there doesn't seem to be any pipes, etc near the bottom of the tank, or at least I don't see any.
 
:moo:
My guess on the necessity to cut a hole would be similar to yours. If water is being removed from the tank by guests using it, her body would go be drawn towards the outlet hole, hence the water pressure issues being reported by guests, as part of her body was blocking/stuck in the pipe.


Elisa was 5'4' in height. According to this article, the water tank was 4.5' wide, therefore she could not have floated horizontally because she was too tall.

The article says her body was decomposed, but then why would they give the okay for the drinking water so quickly after finding the body? I would have thought that a decomposed body would have meant putting a complete stop. That's why I assumed her body might not have been in there for very long.

Thanks for confirming her height, I hadn't read that anywhere.
 
Came across this in the chinese forums.

I am not supporting this, but it does indicate graphically how a 5'4" body could fit into a 4'5" wide tank.

body position in tank.JPG
 
BBM. This make sense (imo), and... although I don't have a link there were a few msm reports stating her body was "wedged" in the tank. (I posted this info w/link ?some thread? previously).

** But (looking at the photos) there doesn't seem to be any pipes, etc near the bottom of the tank, or at least I don't see any.

Look closely at about 8 pm on the circle. There is an outlet pipe.

tank.JPG
 
BBM. This make sense (imo), and... although I don't have a link there were a few msm reports stating her body was "wedged" in the tank. (I posted this info w/link ?some thread? previously).

** But (looking at the photos) there doesn't seem to be any pipes, etc near the bottom of the tank, or at least I don't see any.

Yes, I'm finding it difficult to see the pipes near the bottom of the tank also. I've been trying to find a clear picture of the outside of the tank to try and see how many and where the pipes should be, but it is difficult to get a clear picture of that particular tank.

Here's 3 possibilities I've come up with

They could be under the sludge deposited at the bottom
They could be at the bottom of the picture where it is cropped
They could have fed in to the section that was removed

Here is a picture that hasn't been tampered with so much / at all?
attachment.php


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9011895&postcount=45"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9011895&postcount=45[/ame]
 
I'm a bit confused. The LAFD took this video??

Also, yes- a tracking or trailing dog should have picked up her scent if she was in another room, assuming other rooms were checked as possible PLS? But it seems like that may not have happened here. :waitasec: We're talking about a relatively large structure.

And now I'm confused about the structure itself. Where is the access the FD made vs the access/hatch on top?

What is your opinion on why the sniff dogs missed EL in the water tank?
 
There won't be pipes at the bottom or near the bottom of the tank. Look at that sludge at the bottom, it's there because the water is pulled off the top or near the top of the tank to avoid sucking in all that muck build up.

As to the "decomposed body" that some MSM outlets have reported how do they know it was decomposed? the LAPD or Coroners office has never once said how long her body was in the tank or the condition of her body.
 
There won't be pipes at the bottom or near the bottom of the tank. Look at that sludge at the bottom, it's there because the water is pulled off the top or near the top of the tank to avoid sucking in all that muck build up.

As to the "decomposed body" that some MSM outlets have reported how do they know it was decomposed? the LAPD or Coroners office has never once said how long her body was in the tank or the condition of her body.

It's pulled out near the top, but where does it enter the tank?


From these pictures of the outside of the other tank, you can see a pipe feeding in near the bottom

vqky92.jpg


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9011799&postcount=44"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9011799&postcount=44[/ame]
 
What is your opinion on why the sniff dogs missed EL in the water tank?

Short answer (and mvho) the scent trained dogs used for the scent initially involved were not likely trained to detect HR- and then were perhaps not followed up immediately with other scent dogs who were trained for other scents.

Please keep in mind I don't know the dogs used, nor do I know their training background. So that's a guess on my part.
But it appears there is enough ventilation (from many places- on the roof/water source/ within the hotel itself/access points) where an HRD dog should have detected HR scent.
 
It's pulled out near the top, but where does it enter the tank?


From these pictures of the outside of the other tank, you can see a pipe feeding in near the bottom

vqky92.jpg


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9011799&postcount=44

It's very very unlikely that the tank system would pull the water out from the top of tank.

Why would it when it has they gravity working for it?

It would just be another pump to pay for and which could malfunction.

Mechanical engineers rely on gravity whenever possible. And keep things simple.

And look at the other tanks in the picture. There is a pipe coming out about 1 ft up from the base of the tank nearest the viewer on the left, and I can probably find another pic of the outside base of the tank where the body was discovered.

The outlet pipe is located "up" from the base so that the muck and solids (screw drivers, etc. dropped down the hatch) aren't drawn into the outlet pipe.

And the two tanks on the right don't have any inlets at or near the top. The water in those tanks comes from the outlet pipes near the bases of the two tanks on the left. They would be the backup or booster tanks for the two tanks on the left.

All potable water has some particulates in it that settle out over time.
 
It's very very unlikely that the tank system would pull the water out from the top of tank.

Why would it when it has they gravity working for it?

It would just be another pump to pay for and which could malfunction.

Mechanical engineers rely on gravity whenever possible. And keep things simple.

And look at the other tanks in the picture. There is a pipe coming out about 1 ft up from the base of the tank nearest the viewer on the left, and I can probably find another pic of the outside base of the tank where the body was discovered.

The outlet pipe is located "up" from the base so that the muck and solids (screw drivers, etc. dropped down the hatch) aren't drawn into the outlet pipe.

And the two tanks on the right don't have any inlets at or near the top. The water in those tanks comes from the outlet pipes near the bases of the two tanks on the left. They would be the backup or booster tanks for the two tanks on the left.

All potable water has some particulates in it that settle out over time.

Yes, you are correct my phrase of 'near the top' was wrong, perhaps 'higher up than the inlet point' might have been a better phrase. :blushing:
 
And you see that smaller pipe coming out of the tank base on the left?

That's mostly how they flush the tank when they clean it.

Close off the outlet pipe higher up, and then flush the muck out the base into a bucket or directly onto the roof.
 
Short answer (and mvho) the scent trained dogs used for the scent initially involved were not likely trained to detect HR- and then were perhaps not followed up immediately with other scent dogs who were trained for other scents.

Please keep in mind I don't know the dogs used, nor do I know their training background. So that's a guess on my part.
But it appears there is enough ventilation (from many places- on the roof/water source/ within the hotel itself/access points) where an HRD dog should have detected HR scent.

Sounds like LAPD was incompetent in this case.
 
I think that's a bit harsh.

LE did say that they suspected foul play.

That doesn't mean dead type foul play.

Kidnapping is also foul play.

If they didn't have any reason to conclude that she was dead, it would be natural to use a tracking dog to try to find places in the hotel where she might have been or still was.
 
The lack of contamination in the water supply puzzles me. Would it indicate that her body in the tank was perhaps sealed in a plastic bag (or something else) and not in direct contact with the water and this is why the dogs didn't alert to her scent??

JMO
 
The lack of contamination in the water supply puzzles me. Would it indicate that her body in the tank was perhaps sealed in a plastic bag (or something else) and not in direct contact with the water and this is why the dogs didn't alert to her scent??

JMO

Not sure, good questions...

I think there's a knowledge gap on our part between "lack of contamination" and the announcement that the water didn't pose a health threat when they tested it. That could be a huge difference or it could be an argument in semantics.

The water could still be considered contaminated but due to the chemicals in the system it wasn't going to make anyone sick at that time.


does that make sense?
 
Not sure, good questions...

I think there's a knowledge gap on our part between "lack of contamination" and the announcement that the water didn't pose a health threat when they tested it. That could be a huge difference or it could be an argument in semantics.

The water could still be considered contaminated but due to the chemicals in the system it wasn't going to make anyone sick at that time.


does that make sense?

Yes, I had forgotten about the chlorine. I think that would make an important difference. Thanks
 
Yes, I had forgotten about the chlorine. I think that would make an important difference. Thanks

from:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/21/us/california-hotel-water-corpse


The Los Angeles Public Health Department immediately tested the water supply, but told the manager they could stay open as long as they provided bottle water and warned guests not to drink the tap water.

The results of the testing showed no harmful bacteria in the tank or the pipes, according to Angelo Bellomo, director of environmental health for the department. Chlorine in the city's water may be the reason it is safe, he said.
All of the tanks and pipes in the building still must be drained, flushed and sanitized, Bellomo said. The water will be retested after that process, which should take several days, he said.
<bbm>

hth
 
IMO, you stated it as an established fact in your previous post, and it was very misleading.

The tanks are fed by the municipal/city water system which is already chlorinated. No additional chlorination is required unless there is a specific health concern, and then it is dealt with by an order from the Director. Section 11.38.430 that your reference is preceded by:

from:
http://search.municode.com/html/16274/






The above "Sanitary Defects and Health Hazards" and subsequent issuance of an Order by the Director (i.e. re additional chlorination) only would have occurred AFTER it was determined that Elisa's body was in the water tank.

I've read through the entire section of the code. IMO, there is nothing in the code that sets out additional chlorination as part of an ongoing maintenance program.

Sorry Borris, the roof was not covered in bleach as you previously stated, and there is no reason to believe that bleach even enters into the picture.

MOO

Silly - That's correct, in part. The city provides chlorinated water, enough to kill off bacteria. But chlorine in water degrades over time - in the presence of heat, UV radiation, when it reacts with metals in the pipes, or with organic matter in the water. Since the chlorine in the water tanks degrades, the providers of distribution networks have to maintain "residual chlorine levels". This process is called "booster chlorination" - adding a few tablets per 10,000 gallons of water. Without booster chlorination, the system must be flushed periodically. Flushing periodically is relatively more expensive and takes a relatively longer time with slow rates to flush the water out and accept a fresh supply.

I have read that the hotel uses an old plumbing system for a 600 room grand hotel that now appears to be mostly vacant - IMO this would mean long, hot storage times for the water, with potentially reactive metals within the old pipes, all of which would cause the levels of chlorine to be reduced once it is accepted from the city supply. I have not read that the Hotel's water supply is exempt from either periodic flushing or booster chlorination - doing either in order to maintain residual chlorine levels for the health and safety of its occupants who are drinking from the water held in storage.

- Contamination Requires Disinfection -

As you have pointed out, whenever contamination is introduced into the system, it must be flushed and disinfected with "chlorine". This was done when her body was discovered. But contamination occurs anytime a plumbing pipeline is broken, which will introduce higher-than-normal contaminants into the system that need to be disinfected with higher-than-normal concentrations of chlorine.

About the day she went missing, someone reported flooding between the 3rd and 4th floor after hearing a loud thump. In my opinion, this flooding is indicative of a break in the inlet pipes. This is because "Loud Thumping" in old plumbing is referred to as "Water Hammer" and can cause be caused by a blockage in they system, that can lead to pipe collapse and/or breakage.

From WIKI - Water hammer - "If the pipe is suddenly closed at the outlet (downstream), the mass of water before the closure is still moving forward with some velocity, building up a high pressure and shock waves. In domestic plumbing this is experienced as a loud banging resembling a hammering noise. Water hammer can cause pipelines to break if the pressure is high enough."

In my opinion, the break introduced flooding and contamination in the system, and following repairs, the system had to be flushed and disinfected for the safety of those downstream from the break.

As Oriah has pointed out, flushing out the system could have confused the dogs.
 

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