How Many Steps to Innocence??

[BBB167893]

Can't even tell you how much I believe a RDI. I just don't follow the popular belief that it was Patsy. I honestly believe the fibers are not only suspicious but go far beyond that. Yes, fibers float, but IMHO that may account for a single fiber on a blanket or a piece of tape. Not multiple fibers.

There are TOO many unanswered, avoided, untruthful statements that were made by the R's and even their hand picked legal team. Evidence is evidence is evidence. No matter how you slice or dice it, there are too many coincidences and no clear answers for them. Circumstantial evidence has gotten many convictions, for a reason!

As for getting 'used to 'this kind of stuff', there is also the ability to stand up for your beliefs and opinions. After all, opinions are like part of our anatomy, we've all got one! No one will agree all the time or on all subjects or parts of a case. That is why jurors have 12 members.

:clap: Now I'm hanging on every word!

 

[SunnieRN]

Good question!



I'm NOT, Sunnie. And I'm sorry if you thought I was. I have to admit, that was not worded well. I meant that it strikes me as hypocritical for an IDI to complain about being ignored in light of the numerous times I've been ignored by them.



I know. Frankly, she thinks too much of me!



I'm not saying you did, Sunnie. I was saying that I don't make a big deal out of it.

Friends?

Of course Dave! And even if you felt that way about my statement I would still respect you! You have studied this case long and hard and you have answered MANY of the questions I had! I will say I am hard headed though, so I apologize also!

 

[Toltec]

Murriflower...You have many questions and want people to point you to sources...I suggest you get caught up on this case by reading all books, articles and previous posts.

I do not think it fair that you constantly ask people for sources when you could find them yourself.

 

[SunnieRN]

Murriflower...You have many questions and want people to point you to sources...I suggest you get caught up on this case by reading all books, articles and previous posts.

I do not think it fair that you constantly ask people for sources when you could find them yourself.

Thank you Toltec! Great post with a great suggestion! The problem with constantly listing sources, is that as soon as the next new person comes along, they again question the same details. It takes time to look for sources of information.

My take is that if I don't agree and you (not you personally Toltec) have posted a link, I will post a link to refute it, if I know it is untrue, or has been proven incorrect.

Maybe we need a sticky where we can post links to articles, quotes, DNA evidence or lack thereof. Or does one exist and I am just not aware of it? Maybe it could be titled read here first?

 

[MurriFlower]

I find I havent the time to get bogged down in arguments that really go nowhere, and constantly need to check sources. I've had to take a little time off for some research and to do some work. I've got the time only for one thread and then probably not enough time for long discussions, so I'm sticking to this one at present.

However, (phew), I've been thinking that if there's one thing that's caused both RDI and IDI problems it's the Ransom Note.

RDI (I believe), generally says PR wrote the note and that by necessity it was written AFTER she, JR or BR murdered/accidentally killed her 6yo daughter. This was done in order to deflect blame onto 'someone else'. However, it is not proven that she did or did not write the note, and if she did, then why not a shorter note and why all the references to SFF and beheading etc?

IDI (I believe), generally think it was written BEFORE she was killed, when someone entered the house while the family was at the Whites. Whether it was intended to be a kidnapping that went wrong, or whether the kidnapping threat was a ruse, is a matter for conjecture. Was there really a SFF or not, why say behead and strangle, deny remains and leave the body in the house, in fact why threaten kidnapping and kill instead, etc, etc.

Either way RDI or IDI, the RN is a source of vexation.

SOooooo, let's just suppose a hypothetical for a moment? What if the RN was never written/found? What would have happened? There was no reference to the $118k, no threat to kill JBR if the cops/FBI was involved, no SFF (sorry HOTYH!), no wondering if PR or IDI was the author.

For me, IDI, I suppose they would still have woken at ~ 6.00am, JR in the shower, PR putting on makeup and the same clothes she had on the previous night, getting a few things together for the journey. PR goes down the spiral staircase to the kitchen and starts to prepare breakfast. JR (fully clothed LOL) joins her and helps get organised, PR goes upstairs to wake the kids. BR first?? Ok, BR first, then to JBR's room. Gone!! Where is she?? Bathroom - no. Upstairs - no. Kitchen - no. PR to BR, where's JBR? Don't know. PR to JR, JBR's not in her bed. JR - well she's probably gone ......where?? Next door to see Jacques? To her friend's place? Riding her new bicycle?

What do they do now?? Look around the neighbourhood, knock of everyone's door? Phone their friends and check if she's with their children? Then what??

Search the house in case she's hiding. JR finds her in the wine cellar dead. PR calls the ambulance/cops.

How would this have changed how the investigation unfolded?

How would this have affected where we are now 14 years on??

What does RDI think might have happened if the RN was never written?

 

[joeskidbeck]

I find I havent the time to get bogged down in arguments that really go nowhere, and constantly need to check sources. I've had to take a little time off for some research and to do some work. I've got the time only for one thread and then probably not enough time for long discussions, so I'm sticking to this one at present.

However, (phew), I've been thinking that if there's one thing that's caused both RDI and IDI problems it's the Ransom Note.

RDI (I believe), generally says PR wrote the note and that by necessity it was written AFTER she, JR or BR murdered/accidentally killed her 6yo daughter. This was done in order to deflect blame onto 'someone else'. However, it is not proven that she did or did not write the note, and if she did, then why not a shorter note and why all the references to SFF and beheading etc?

IDI (I believe), generally think it was written BEFORE she was killed, when someone entered the house while the family was at the Whites. Whether it was intended to be a kidnapping that went wrong, or whether the kidnapping threat was a ruse, is a matter for conjecture. Was there really a SFF or not, why say behead and strangle, deny remains and leave the body in the house, in fact why threaten kidnapping and kill instead, etc, etc.

Either way RDI or IDI, the RN is a source of vexation.

SOooooo, let's just suppose a hypothetical for a moment? What if the RN was never written/found? What would have happened? There was no reference to the $118k, no threat to kill JBR if the cops/FBI was involved, no SFF (sorry HOTYH!), no wondering if PR or IDI was the author.

For me, IDI, I suppose they would still have woken at ~ 6.00am, JR in the shower, PR putting on makeup and the same clothes she had on the previous night, getting a few things together for the journey. PR goes down the spiral staircase to the kitchen and starts to prepare breakfast. JR (fully clothed LOL) joins her and helps get organised, PR goes upstairs to wake the kids. BR first?? Ok, BR first, then to JBR's room. Gone!! Where is she?? Bathroom - no. Upstairs - no. Kitchen - no. PR to BR, where's JBR? Don't know. PR to JR, JBR's not in her bed. JR - well she's probably gone ......where?? Next door to see Jacques? To her friend's place? Riding her new bicycle?

What do they do now?? Look around the neighbourhood, knock of everyone's door? Phone their friends and check if she's with their children? Then what??

Search the house in case she's hiding. JR finds her in the wine cellar dead. PR calls the ambulance/cops.

How would this have changed how the investigation unfolded?

How would this have affected where we are now 14 years on??

What does RDI think might have happened if the RN was never written?

Murri, if and I really mean IF it had went down this way, when the police arrive (if we are hypothesizing, then let's make the BPD handle this correctly as well), the house would have been declared a crime scene, John and Patsy ushered to the pd for questioning and most likely, a family friend or child welfare services called to pick up Burke. It is my opinion that the killer/killers would have been arrested that day and we would not be here right now. Sounds very simple, but without the rn, it really was very simple.

 

[Linda7NJ]

All it would take for me to switch to a IDI is to find the depositor of that foreign DNA and prove he was in the Ramsey house, that night, with JonBenet and that he was the author of the RN.

 

[BBB167893]

SOooooo, let's just suppose a hypothetical for a moment? What if the RN was never written/found? What would have happened? There was no reference to the $118k, no threat to kill JBR if the cops/FBI was involved, no SFF (sorry HOTYH!), no wondering if PR or IDI was the author.

For me, IDI, I suppose they would still have woken at ~ 6.00am, JR in the shower, PR putting on makeup and the same clothes she had on the previous night, getting a few things together for the journey. PR goes down the spiral staircase to the kitchen and starts to prepare breakfast. JR (fully clothed LOL) joins her and helps get organised, PR goes upstairs to wake the kids. BR first?? Ok, BR first, then to JBR's room. Gone!! Where is she?? Bathroom - no. Upstairs - no. Kitchen - no. PR to BR, where's JBR? Don't know. PR to JR, JBR's not in her bed. JR - well she's probably gone ......where?? Next door to see Jacques? To her friend's place? Riding her new bicycle?

What do they do now?? Look around the neighbourhood, knock of everyone's door? Phone their friends and check if she's with their children? Then what??

Search the house in case she's hiding. JR finds her in the wine cellar dead. PR calls the ambulance/cops.

How would this have changed how the investigation unfolded?

How would this have affected where we are now 14 years on??

What does RDI think might have happened if the RN was never written?

Interesting scenario. But I really don't think I could add anything to what Beck said.

 

[MurriFlower]

Murri, if and I really mean IF it had went down this way, when the police arrive (if we are hypothesizing, then let's make the BPD handle this correctly as well), the house would have been declared a crime scene, John and Patsy ushered to the pd for questioning and most likely, a family friend or child welfare services called to pick up Burke. It is my opinion that the killer/killers would have been arrested that day and we would not be here right now. Sounds very simple, but without the rn, it really was very simple.

It is my opinion that the killer/killers would have been arrested that day and we would not be here right now. Sounds very simple, but without the rn, it really was very simple

So, are you are saying that WITHOUT the ransom note, it would have made the crime simple to solve? How so?

 

[MurriFlower]

All it would take for me to switch to a IDI is to find the depositor of that foreign DNA and prove he was in the Ramsey house, that night, with JonBenet and that he was the author of the RN.

my bold

So, the DNA and handwriting wouldn't do it for you on their own? You need to prove he was in the house that night? How? Would someone need to have been there with him and testify after all these years? How about he just had no alibi, would that do it??

 

[UKGuy]

I haven't seen that there were 400 fibers, so I am assuming that this is just a rhetorical statement, but if there were, I would still be just as focused on the fibers belonging to Patsy. Here's why- the fibers are from a garment she was KNOWN to be wearing on the night JB died, and that Patsy told LE she had never worn in the basement. The tape was left behind in the basement when JR brought JB upstairs and Patsy claimed to have NOT gone into the basement that night or anytime on the 26th. JB's face, head and torso were covered with an afghan by the time Patsy came into the living room and threw herself on the body, in addition, the knot (where the fibers were found) was on the back of JB's neck and she was face UP when she was lying on the rug in the living room. Patsy claimed it was LHP who carried the tote to the basement and that Patsy never painted wearing that garment. So it is because Patsy's fibers were found on items particular to the crime itself (the garrote KNOT, the tape, and the paint tote) combined with it being from a garment she owned and wore THAT night that would still make me look at those fibers above the others, no matter how numerous.
Was that too confusing?

DeeDee249,

Not really. So what your saying is that there are fiber samples from both parents clothing deposited at the crime-scene. Therefore linking and matching them to the crime-scene in manner that they should not be? e.g. John Ramsey's israeli shirt fibers deposited on JonBenet's crotch, and Patsy's jacket fibers entwined into the ligature?

There is no similar evidence linking or matching to any intruder. Do we need a degree in criminology to work out who the prime suspects are?


.

 

[Linda7NJ]

my bold

So, the DNA and handwriting wouldn't do it for you on their own? You need to prove he was in the house that night? How? Would someone need to have been there with him and testify after all these years? How about he just had no alibi, would that do it??

Nope, that wouldn't do it.

The intruder would need to be placed at the scene of the crime, ideally I want his DNA on other items related to the crime, like the garotte.

 

[joeskidbeck]

So, are you are saying that WITHOUT the ransom note, it would have made the crime simple to solve? How so?

Because the Ramseys could not have blamed everyone but the chief of police, that's why. There were 4 people in the home, one was dead, and NO sign of anyone else having been there. Who does that leave to commit this crime?

 

[MurriFlower]

Nope, that wouldn't do it.

The intruder would need to be placed at the scene of the crime, ideally I want his DNA on other items related to the crime, like the garotte.

Ok, so in order to believe IDI, you need:

Proven DNA
Proven Handwriting
Proven at the house that night
PLUS
Proven other evidence (DNA on the garotte)

Is that it??

 

[MurriFlower]

Because the Ramseys could not have blamed everyone but the chief of police, that's why. There were 4 people in the home, one was dead, and NO sign of anyone else having been there. Who does that leave to commit this crime?

Ok, so you believe that, rather than the RN being a source of RDI evidence (that is your suspicion that PR wrote it), it in fact points AWAY from the Rs?? So with the RN never written, it makes the Rs look more not less guilty?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Ok, so in order to believe IDI, you need:

Proven DNA
Proven Handwriting
Proven at the house that night
PLUS
Proven other evidence (DNA on the garotte)

Is that it??

Yep, that about sums it up!

 

[Linda7NJ]

Ok, so you believe that, rather than the RN being a source of RDI evidence (that is your suspicion that PR wrote it), it in fact points AWAY from the Rs?? So with the RN never written, it makes the Rs look more not less guilty?

I will gladly and willingly omit the RN.

Without it, the same conclusion is reached by simply considering the remaining evidence, in my mind anyway.

 

[SunnieRN]

Ok, so in order to believe IDI, you need:

Proven DNA
Proven Handwriting
Proven at the house that night
PLUS
Proven other evidence (DNA on the garotte)

Is that it??

You forgot one, the suspect. A suspect you can place in Boulder, CO that night.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yep, that about sums it up!

Me, too. BUT- the parents' behavior is still suspicious and uncooperative.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Ok, so you believe that, rather than the RN being a source of RDI evidence (that is your suspicion that PR wrote it), it in fact points AWAY from the Rs?? So with the RN never written, it makes the Rs look more not less guilty?

You really don't understand why she wrote that note, do you? Not at all. You really don't get it that this note and some lucky touch dna kept these folks out of prison for 14 years. That's it and that's all. No note, nobody to blame. Murri, if she had not written the note, how do you think they would have explained the previous molestation?