'Splain' this 1 for me please....About Bedwetters:

[BBB167893]

"All of those findings that indicated sexual abuse (bolded) are ALSO indicative of the many different structural appearances!!"

Dr. McCann wrote that stuff about different structural appearances, julianne. I think he knows what he's talking about!

"I still don't understand how he could say it was 'abnormal' when he didn't know what structural class it fell into before."

Well, that's why he's an expert and we aren't. He's not commenting on the shape of it. He's commenting on the irregularities, which I assure you he can separate from the normal.

 

[julianne]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lord knows, even though I am female I don't have the knowledge of the many different structural classifications of hymens so that said,
the following is just an ignorant layfemale's opinion of the definition of the word "change" in reference to the quote:
"that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration."

IMO "Change" was used indicate that the area observed which had obviously been 'damaged by penetration', had healed. This was to say that in his opinion JBR's hymen was unlike that of any structural classification of totally virginal or totally unpenetrated hymens and was characteristic of a partially penetrated hymen which had healed or changed as an injury would which showed 'scar tissue' (scar tissue was obviously not the proper medical technical term to use for this so he used the word "change" instead....

So in my 'tiny little brain', it all boils down to his definition of the word "change"..........:banghead:

LOL, I didn't know all this either, angelwngs. The American Academy of Family Physicians is giving me an education real quick, LOL.

Even still, I see your point. But, if it was characteristic of a "partially penetrated" hymen, then I just don't really see how that can automatically fall into a "chronic sexual abuse" classification. Isn't it plausible that JB "partially penetrated" it herself?

I don't have all the answers......not even close. Just like to question what's out there....Seems that the evidence can be explained depending on what stance a person has. That's why this case is so frustrating to me. Nothing seems concrete.

 

[BBB167893]

"LOL, I didn't know all this either, angelwngs. The American Academy of Family Physicians is giving me an education real quick, LOL."

Angelwngs is right, julianne.

"IMO 'Change' was used indicate that the area observed which had obviously been 'damaged by penetration', had healed. This was to say that in his opinion JBR's hymen was unlike that of any structural classification of totally virginal or totally unpenetrated hymens and was characteristic of a partially penetrated hymen which had healed or changed as an injury would which showed 'scar tissue' (scar tissue was obviously not the proper medical technical term to use for this so he used the word 'change' instead...."

That's about how it would be phrased.

""But, if it was characteristic of a 'partially penetrated' hymen, then I just don't really see how that can automatically fall into a 'chronic sexual abuse' classification."

Well, that explanation is easy enough: the other factors involved, namely the erosion of tissue in other vaginal areas and excess blood in the tissues.

"Isn't it plausible that JB 'partially penetrated' it herself?"

They asked Dr. McCann that question. He and seven other sex abuse experts said that this was not masturbation.

James Monteleone and Virginia Rau said that specifically.

"Nothing seems concrete."

That's why you have to see it in what the FBI called the "Big Picture."

 

[angelwngs]

According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim.

All of those findings that indicated sexual abuse (bolded) are ALSO indicative of the many different structural appearances!!

To say that the measurements of the hymeneal orifice are abnormal and unusual...again, I say that one could really only make that determination if there was only ONE structural appearance or classification. But because there are MANY (there are medical sites on the web with medical decriptions and pictures that support this) different structural classifications that change the diameter of orifice simply by design...I still don't understand how he could say it was "abnormal" when he didn't know what structural class it fell into before.

It's like noses. There are many different shapes to noses. Some are shaped differently due to an injury. BUT, many many of them are shaped differently simply by design. Because A's nose appears larger and more bumpy than B's nose, it doesn't neccessarily mean that A's nose was broken. "A" could've very well been born that way.

I totally see your point.

The other night on Jay Leno he said that a new clip about "research" stated that 50% of all confirmed research studies were proven later to be incorrect. Since this was also a confirmed research study, Jay then could assume that there was a 50% chance that it would also be proven incorrect!

So this is how we see the 'expert' testimony, documentation, reports, etc. go... Who the H' "KNOWS" anything as an "absolute" ??? :doh:

 

[julianne]

"All of those findings that indicated sexual abuse (bolded) are ALSO indicative of the many different structural appearances!!"

Dr. McCann wrote that stuff about different structural appearances, julianne. I think he knows what he's talking about!

"I still don't understand how he could say it was 'abnormal' when he didn't know what structural class it fell into before."

Well, that's why he's an expert and we aren't. He's not commenting on the shape of it. He's commenting on the irregularities, which I assure you he can separate from the normal.

He didn't write about the different structural appearances--it's from the American Academy of Family Physicians. It was authored jointly by many different physicians & he is not one of them.

It's the irregularites (or regularites) that DEFINE the shape.

If everyone took the word of an expert simply because they were deemed an expert, there would be alot less lawsuits in this country.

I'm not debating you, SuperDave. I'm simply doing what every other armchair detective has done in this case for the last decade....question the evidence. If nobody questioned these "expert" opinions, this site and others would need about 90% LESS bandwith to operate.

 

[julianne]

I totally see your point.

The other night on Jay Leno he said that a new clip about "research" stated that 50% of all confirmed research studies were proven later to be incorrect. Since this was also a confirmed research study, Jay then could assume that there was a 50% chance that it would also be proven incorrect!

So this is how we see the 'expert' testimony, documentation, reports, etc. go... Who the H' "KNOWS" anything as an "absolute" ??? :doh:

BAAHAAHAAA...that's too funny! I wish I had seen that. I'm cracking up now just reading it, I can only image seeing him say that. Off topic--what really cracks me up is when he goes out on the street and asks people general knowledge questions. It AMAZES me how many people are clueless! Some of these people have 4 year OR MORE college degrees, and they don't know stuff that I was taught in 6th grade! Kudos to Jay Leno....

 

[BBB167893]

"He didn't write about the different structural appearances--it's from the American Academy of Family Physicians. It was authored jointly by many different physicians & he is not one of them."

John McCann is generally recognized as the trailblazer in determining what is and what isn't a real sex abuse indicator, julianne. Many countries have used his expertise.

You say the American Academy of Family Physicians gave you an education, and the context you said it in led me to think that they were in agreement with what angelwngs and I were saying. Did I misinterpret that?

"I'm not debating you, SuperDave. I'm simply doing what every other armchair detective has done in this case for the last decade....question the evidence. If nobody questioned these "expert" opinions, this site and others would need about 90% LESS bandwith to operate."

Isn't that the truth.

But I will say this, julianne: if it were JUST him, I would have more doubt in my mind. But agreeing with him were:

James Monteleone

David Jones

Virginia Rau

Ronald Wright

and a slew of others.

 

[angelwngs]

~snip~

"Can we infer, from that statement that it would also be your opinion that in order to find the person who orchestrated the cover-up we would have to look to someone else other than the abuser/killer?"

Not necessarily.

~~~~
Dagnabit, S-Dave! Just when I think that maybe, just maybe I can turn the page and read the very end of the extremely engrossing, fresh off the presses, author signed 'SD hardback limited edition', you add another chapter! :bang:

 

[julianne]

"John McCann is generally recognized as the trailblazer in determining what is and what isn't a real sex abuse indicator, julianne. Many countries have used his expertise."

I wasn't questioning his credentials. You said he wrote the article I was referring to, and I responded that he didn't.

You say the American Academy of Family Physicians gave you an education, and the context you said it in led me to think that they were in agreement with what angelwngs and I were saying. Did I misinterpret that?

Yes, you did. The context I said it in was that, being a female, I didn't even know about all these differences, and that I only knew about them by reading up on them from articles written by fellows of the AAFP. The articles I was referring to are in an educational format to discuss how various differences in appearances, shapes, and structural makeup can be completely normal and not indicative of sexual abuse.

But I will say this, julianne: if it were JUST him, I would have more doubt in my mind. But agreeing with him were:

James Monteleone

David Jones

Virginia Rau

Ronald Wright

and a slew of others.

Again, if "expert" opinions were never questioned, there would be a lot less lawsuits in this country. The need for second opinions wouldn't exist. When "experts" routinely question/dispute/refute other "experts" successfully in many arenas on many subjects, it stands to reason that an "experts" opinion doesn't neccessarily mean it's gospel. As I said, it seems that EVERYTHING in this case can be molded to fit either side---

Courtesy of angelwngs, which is courtsey of Jay Leno:
The other night on Jay Leno he said that a new clip about "research" stated that 50% of all confirmed research studies were proven later to be incorrect. Since this was also a confirmed research study, Jay then could assume that there was a 50% chance that it would also be proven incorrect!



Just sayin'....

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Detective Arndt said Coroner Meyer told her he thought it appeared as though JonBenet had been sexually abused. Does that help you at all, julianne?

 

[BBB167893]

"Dagnabit, S-Dave! Just when I think that maybe, just maybe I can turn the page and read the very end of the extremely engrossing, fresh off the presses, author signed 'SD hardback limited edition', you add another chapter!"

Someday, angelwngs, the book will be finished, and EVERYONE will know it! And damned be the one who first cries "enough!"

"I wasn't questioning his credentials. You said he wrote the article I was referring to, and I responded that he didn't."

Fair enough.

"Yes, you did."

I thought so. Too bad.

"The context I said it in was that, being a female, I didn't even know about all these differences, and that I only knew about them by reading up on them from articles written by fellows of the AAFP. The articles I was referring to are in an educational format to discuss how various differences in appearances, shapes, and structural makeup can be completely normal and not indicative of sexual abuse."

Okay. But don't you think that Dr. McCann is aware of these writings? After all, he didn't just fall off the truck.

"Again, if 'expert' opinions were never questioned, there would be a lot less lawsuits in this country. The need for second opinions wouldn't exist. When 'experts' routinely question/dispute/refute other 'experts' successfully in many arenas on many subjects, it stands to reason that an 'experts' opinion doesn't neccessarily mean it's gospel."

Right. But it doesn't mean it's worthless, either.

"As I said, it seems that EVERYTHING in this case can be molded to fit either side---"

It seems that way, but remember Occam's Razor: when two theories explain the same evidence, the simplest one is probably right.

"Detective Arndt said Coroner Meyer told her he thought it appeared as though JonBenet had been sexually abused. Does that help you at all, julianne?"

I remember that.

 

[julianne]

Of all the things I would've thought I'd never do in my lifetime.....I have to say that discussing the appearance and structure of hymens on the internet would have to be at the top of my list.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[BBB167893]

How do you think the REST of us feel, julianne?

 

[julianne]

Detective Arndt said Coroner Meyer told her he thought it appeared as though JonBenet had been sexually abused. Does that help you at all, julianne?

Well, I'll keep my opinions on Arndt to myself for now...

I have heard that Coroner Meyer said that. I'm still on the fence, though, because haven't other "experts" refuted that very statement? I don't know....

 

[julianne]

I thought so. Too bad.

Geez, I feel the love...not! Be nice, SuperDave. Don't make me unleash SuperJulianne.:laugh:

Okay. But don't you think that Dr. McCann is aware of these writings? After all, he didn't just fall off the truck.

I'm sure he most likely is aware of those writings, and I don't think he just fell off the truck. Somebody pushed him off. Sorry, I couldn't resist....on account of I'm feelin' a tad squirrly today.

Right. But it doesn't mean it's worthless, either.

Absolutely, it doesn't mean it's worthless. It also doesn't mean it's gospel.
QUOTE]

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have opinions on Arndt myself, too, but considering she said this early on before she came down with Ramnesia and considering Meyer was the only expert who ever examined JonBenet's actual body - I'm gonna hafta go with Meyer's impression.

 

[Jolynna]

Besides the signs that the hymen had been penetrated and the history of UTIs, there had been enough external irritation that Patsy said she had been treating the area with Desitan.

I reread the autopsy and saw that both the underwear and leggings were wet with urine.

If JonBenet was in enough pain and had enough of an irritation for Patsy to use an ointment why would she not have used pullups on JBR to give her a chance to heal. She said in one interview that she was not using the pullups so that JonBenet would experience being wet (as bedwetting training, I think she meant). But, obviously JonBenet was sore "down there". Letting her be wet so she would be in pain to train her not to wet her bed doesn't sound very caring or empathetic to her child's problem.

Also, why was JonBenet put to bed with all of that clunky jewelry? I always took jewelry off of my daughter for her comfort. Patsy said she always slept in her jewelry too in her 1997 interview. Who sleeps with their party earrings and jewelry on?

I am guessing that she said that because she was wearing her party jewelry to fly on the airplane to Michigan???

 

[angelwngs]

Of all the things I would've thought I'd never do in my lifetime.....I have to say that discussing the appearance and structure of hymens on the internet would have to be at the top of my list.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I have to admit before I hit "submit reply" to my 1st post on this topic, the memory of some movie or TV show in which each member of a 'female sexuality support group' were given hand held mirrors and told to go home and in the privacy of their own boudoir to 'explore their being'...

For a split second, I wished for a powerpoint slide show orchestrated by my OBGYN "from his point of view, up close and very personal of me, with film copyrighted no later than 1972.

It would have been nice, being a female, to have had a friggin clue about the appearance and structure of my own gender's most treasured subject.

OK..enough...delving into the personal arena of my mind!

Back to contemplations........Julianne

 

[angelwngs]

I thought so. Too bad.

Geez, I feel the love...not! Be nice, SuperDave. Don't make me unleash SuperJulianne.:laugh:

Okay. But don't you think that Dr. McCann is aware of these writings? After all, he didn't just fall off the truck.

I'm sure he most likely is aware of those writings, and I don't think he just fell off the truck. Somebody pushed him off. Sorry, I couldn't resist....on account of I'm feelin' a tad squirrly today.

Right. But it doesn't mean it's worthless, either.

Absolutely, it doesn't mean it's worthless. It also doesn't mean it's gospel.
QUOTE]

What concerns me with experts, politicians, p-e-o-p-l-e, etc., is what is the motivating factor that prompts them to say what they say? $$$$$$$$

 

[Toltec]

I've changed my 18mo daughters diaper and occasionally discover a pancake-sized bm. She also has a bad habit of digging her finger in her vagina, causing redness.

As Patsy has stated, JonBenet usually was damp and at times would develop "diaper rash". She would apply the Desitin on her and I assume that would have taken care of the problem.