'Splain' this 1 for me please....About Bedwetters:

  • #61
Nuisanceposter said:
julianne -

From Steve Thomas's book, hb, page 35:

"For the first six months Hoffman-Pugh worked there, she said, JonBenet wet the bed every night, and Patsy even had the girl in pull-up diapers. Then the bed-wetting stopped, but it had resumed about a month ago. When Hoffman-Pugh arrived for work, she said, Patsy already had the bed stripped and the sheets going in the washing machine.

She told the police that the problem had also extened to JonBenet soiling the bed, and recalled once finding fecal matter the size of a grapefruit on the sheets."


So LHP told police about that incident, and Thomas is relating in his book. I believe the part about the incontinence being a bigger issue than Patsy let on is also found in ST's book, but I'll have to look tomorrow.

I also find it very interesting that JonBenet's toileting issues let up and then resumed. That certainly doesn't sound like it was an issue of her bladder being too small or her brain not waking her during the night to use the bathroom.

As far as Patsy not taking JonBenet to a pediatric urologist, she has never said she did, and no one has ever said there were any medical records from pediatric urologist. I would think that if JB had been to see a specialist about her incontinence that that would have come out back in the day when the discussion of JB's toileting issues was a hot new topic.

If you can find any record of JonBenet having been seen by a pediatric urologist I would love to hear of it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nuisanceposter,
Thank you for posting this.
ANYONE who can read this and not be OUTRAGED that more was not done, whether that be in the questioning of parents after the fact of JonBenet's murder, or that more was not done BY THE PARENTS themselves, prior to her murder, in JonBenet's behalf, simply has their head buried in the sand, IMO! :( :furious: :(
 
  • #62
luthersmama said:
My younger daughter had potty issues up until about 3rd grade. Not wanting to take the time, not wanting to admit she had to go. She just had this attitude that SHE was in charge, not her bladder, not her mom, not her teachers. Had a few embarrassing disasters.

Now she suffers from irritable bowel syndrome. Can't help wondering if there is a connection. Constipated one week, diarrahea the next. Especially when stressed by school.

I don't think we can draw conclusions from JBR's potty issues alone. As others have said, maybe the bigger picture is important.

However, I have to say that I have not followed this case religiously. I don't know all the "primary sources". But when I see "facts" tossed about, like the size of JBR's vaginal opening, I have to wonder what the real authority for that "fact" is. I would like to believe every "fact" I read here, but I know from other cases that I have followed more closely that "facts" sometimes develop from totally unsubstantiated rumors.
What I often see are different interpretations of expert findings. So the facts become interwoven with opinion and new "facts" are born.
The autopsy report is a good example. The autopsy is fact. Experts interpret those findings differently.Then those interpretations are interpretated differntly and so it goes.
 
  • #63
JBean said:
What I often see are different interpretations of expert findings. So the facts become interwoven with opinion and new "facts" are born.
The autopsy report is a good example. The autopsy is fact. Experts interpret those findings differently.Then those interpretations are interpretated differntly and so it goes.
Especially true, when an unsolved case, such as this one, drags on for as long as this one has, complete with all of the ineptitude, and bungling. Pretty soon the actual facts and findings in the case get very blurred, and stretched, and reformed, until the "alleged facts" don't even resemble the original information. I have to allow the grand jury to provide my guidance on this case, as they saw, and heard, the evidence, which I haven't been privy to, and no indictment was forthcoming, and as they say, a ham sandwich can be indicted.
 
  • #64
Buzzm1 said:
Especially true, when an unsolved case, such as this one, drags on for as long as this one has, complete with all of the ineptitude, and bungling. Pretty soon the actual facts and findings in the case get very blurred, and stretched, and reformed, until the "alleged facts" don't even resemble the original information. I have to allow the grand jury to provide my guidance on this case, as they saw, and heard, the evidence, which I haven't been privy to, and no indictment was forthcoming, and as they say, a ham sandwich can be indicted.
I was going to say something cute about the HSDI theory, but instead I'll say good post Buzz.
 
  • #65
Those of you that support the "chronic" sexual abuse theory, how do you define or imagine "chronic"? Do you say that to mean over weeks,months or years? or chronic as in just separate from the acute injuries at death?
 
  • #66
Solace said:
Rash, do you think John was sexually molesting JB?
I wouldn't put it past him. And that he obviously did not molest his older daughter Melinda (at least that is what she stated) doesn't mean too much. We once had a shocking case in our neighborhood, where the father had sexually abused one of his daughters, but never molested his other daughter. I know the man personally, and the last thing I would have thought of him was that he might be a child molester. He appeared to be a friendly, nice and decent man. I must admit that to this day, I have not yet recovered from the shock of realizing what lay behind his mask. If I didn't know about this sad case, I probably would be far more hesitant to think that John Ramsey could very well have been JonBenet's abuser.
It would also explain why John covered up for Patsy: because he too had something to hide.
 
  • #67
Buzzm1 said:
Especially true, when an unsolved case, such as this one, drags on for as long as this one has, complete with all of the ineptitude, and bungling. Pretty soon the actual facts and findings in the case get very blurred, and stretched, and reformed, until the "alleged facts" don't even resemble the original information. I have to allow the grand jury to provide my guidance on this case, as they saw, and heard, the evidence, which I haven't been privy to, and no indictment was forthcoming, and as they say, a ham sandwich can be indicted.
But what distorted picture did the grand jurors get, considering that the main suspects, Patsy and John, did not even testify?
And none of the detectives who had worked the case for fifteen months and knew it down to the last detail, like Steve Thomas, were chosen either. Instead Lou Smit and Trip DeMuth, two firm believers in the intruder theory were allowed to serve the grand jury. And Smit and DeMuth were also among those helping to pick the panel. Enough said.

More crucial info about the "not so grand jury" can be found in Steve Thomas' book.
 
  • #68
JBean said:
Those of you that support the "chronic" sexual abuse theory, how do you define or imagine "chronic"? Do you say that to mean over weeks,months or years? or chronic as in just separate from the acute injuries at death?
Hi JBean,

I don't know where the chronic (and by that I mean injuries to the vagina that had been received and begun to heal prior to the assault the night of her death) abuse fits into the death of JBR.

I do feel like a number of experts who examined her are of the strong opinion that there had been ongoing vaginal abuse separate from the abuse suffered by her vagina that night. Was the chronic abuse ongoing for days, months or years? I am uncertain. I would assume it had been ongoing for at least a number of months.
 
  • #69
SCM, if JonBenet's toileting issues were any indication of sexual abuse, I would agree with you - it had to have been going on for months. On top of that, a 6 year old girl's hymenal opening being enlarged and eroded doesn't happen in just a day or two.
 
  • #70
"I gather there was no urine on the basement floor or her nightclothes?"

I'll check.

"I am wondering if she was diagnosed with that specific vaginitis, which would then confirm, not point to, but confirm sexual molestation."

We don't know.

"ETA: I am not necesarily disputing sexual molestation, just trying to look at the parts of the picture, which then lead to the whole. thanks."

You're asking the right people!

"BUT, that doesn't mean that memory loss doesn't happen when a major traumatic event happens in your life. That's basic psychology. Your mind is a very powerful thing, capable of so much more than we even know today. If something is too painful, you're mind will "erase" it, so to speak. Memory loss in PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is widely known and documented by those in the field."

I'm familiar with it, julianne. Dad was a Marine in Vietnam. He was lucky enough not to come back with "shell-shock," but he knew a few guys who did.

"But when I see 'facts' tossed about, like the size of JBR's vaginal opening, I have to wonder what the real authority for that 'fact' is."

Well, that specific fact comes from the autopsy report/

"I have to allow the grand jury to provide my guidance on this case, as they saw, and heard, the evidence, which I haven't been privy to, and no indictment was forthcoming, and as they say, a ham sandwich can be indicted."

To wit:

But what distorted picture did the grand jurors get, considering that the main suspects, Patsy and John, did not even testify?
And none of the detectives who had worked the case for fifteen months and knew it down to the last detail, like Steve Thomas, were chosen either. Instead Lou Smit and Trip DeMuth, two firm believers in the intruder theory were allowed to serve the grand jury. And Smit and DeMuth were also among those helping to pick the panel. Enough said. More crucial info about the "not so grand jury" can be found in Steve Thomas' book.

Not only that, Buzz, but the Grand Jurors actually said that it wasn't the evidence they were going by, but rather their belief that a parent couldn't murder a child.

You don't have to take my word for it. Here's an actual quote:
"The pictures were so horrible that the jurors felt it was absolutely inconceivable that any mother on Earth could have been capable of doing such a thing to their own child."

You'll have to EXCUSE me if I find that extremely naive and unprofessional. What planet were these people from? Parents kill their children every single day in this country, and in much more horrific ways than JB was killed. But, I guess that's what they have to believe in order to live their happy little lives.

But FBI agent Ron Walker had this to say:

"Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children."

Just what IS it about that statement that people don't GET? That's what I wanna know!

"Those of you that support the 'chronic' sexual abuse theory, how do you define or imagine 'chronic?' Do you say that to mean over weeks,months or years? or chronic as in just separate from the acute injuries at death?"

BOTH!

Firstly: "Do you say that to mean over weeks,months or years?"

Answer (courtesy of Dr. John McCann):

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

Secondly: "or chronic as in just separate from the acute injuries at death?"

Answer (courtesy of my lady Wendy Murphy):

"Remember, this child had chronic and acute vaginal injuries. Translation: old and new vaginal injuries. Whoever did this had ongoing sexual contact with this child."

Does that answer your query?
 
  • #71
SuperDave said:
Does that answer your query?
Unfortuantely no. This is reminding me of why I took the stand I did so long ago. But thanks SD. I still see it as inconclusive and arguable.
I'll keep checking though.
 
  • #72
SuperDave does it really have to have been 'sexual' in the past? Could it have been Patsy, with a few layers of toilet paper, wiping JonBenet harshly enough to slightly penetrate her and over time it escalated. I'm not saying Patsy didn't know she was hurting JonBenet when doing this but rather just angry (not 'enraged' during these times or sexually motivated) and frustrated and if she was a little harsh so what, maybe JB would get it and finally stop wetting the bed! :confused:

And when JonBenet gets hurt and Patsy thinks she's dead, Oh my God, could you imagine Patsy horror at realizing what close examination of JonBenets body will reveal? That is why I think Patsy staged it, it was too late for a "oops she fell down the stairs".

I am a full believer of a RDI theory but I think the paintbrush thing was done just as removed as when Patsy hurt JonBenet with toilet paper to block the actual skin contact.



I usually don't get so graphic. Sorry if I offended anyone.


Jubie
 
  • #73
"Unfortunately no."

Too bad. I put a lot of effort into that. I hate to think I wasted it!

"This is reminding me of why I took the stand I did so long ago."

How's that?

"But thanks SD. I still see it as inconclusive and arguable. I'll keep checking though."

You do that. That was only the tip of the iceberg!

"SuperDave does it really have to have been 'sexual' in the past? Could it have been Patsy, with a few layers of toilet paper, wiping JonBenet harshly enough to slightly penetrate her and over time it escalated. I'm not saying Patsy didn't know she was hurting JonBenet when doing this but rather just angry (not 'enraged' during these times or sexually motivated) and frustrated and if she was a little harsh so what, maybe JB would get it and finally stop wetting the bed!

And when JonBenet gets hurt and Patsy thinks she's dead, Oh my God, could you imagine Patsy horror at realizing what close examination of JonBenets body will reveal? That is why I think Patsy staged it, it was too late for a 'oops she fell down the stairs'.

I am a full believer of a RDI theory but I think the paintbrush thing was done just as removed as when Patsy hurt JonBenet with toilet paper to block the actual skin contact."

Dr. Richard Krugman is a big proponent of that scenario, jubie. You're in good company. Truth be told, I don't know!

If you ask me if I think this little angel had been abused over time, I have to say yes. Too many top people have said so for me to say no. But if you ask me who it was or why, there I can't help you.
 
  • #74
SuperDave,

Thanks for your quick response and insight. Poor little girl. :(
 
  • #75
Find the abuser, you'll find your killer, is my opinion.
 
  • #76
Quote:
Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.
End Quote

What I'd like to know is how could Dr. McCann say there was a "change in the hymeneal structure" and what it is due to? I know he's a doctor and all, but if he didn't know what JonBenet's hymeneal structure looked like BEFORE, how could he say there was a CHANGE in it? How could anyone say that without having a known statement or photo of what it looked like before? There are many different structural classifications of hymens: annular, crescentic, septate, collar, cuff, and MANY more--all of these have vastly different appearances, and all are considered normal. Basically, what I mean is that there is no "standard"---not at all. The differences are vast and are not due to any types of injuries---it's just how they're made.

Additionally, how the person being examined is positioned can DRAMATICALLY change the appearance of the hymeneal structure. The difference in appearance while lying on one's back is vastly different when in other positions.

So, knowing that there are numerous different classifications because of the vast difference in appearances that are all considered normal, and that no one "standard" appearance exists, how could anyone say there is a CHANGE IN THE STRUCTURE of a persons hymen if you don't have a prior example of that persons hymen to compare it to?

ETA: If there was only one classification or appearance of the actual structure, then I could understand stating there was a change in that structure. But, there isn't just one classification, there are NUMEROUS ones. Also, it doesn't state in the autopsy report that she was examined in different positions, which can make quite a difference considering the appearance changes dramatically depending on what position one is in.
 
  • #77
SuperDave said:
Find the abuser, you'll find your killer, is my opinion.
Can we infer, from that statement that it would also be your opinion that in order to find the person who orchestrated the cover-up we would have to look to someone else other than the abuser/killer?
 
  • #78
"What I'd like to know is how could Dr. McCann say there was a 'change in the hymeneal structure' and what it is due to? I know he's a doctor and all, but if he didn't know what JonBenet's hymeneal structure looked like BEFORE, how could he say there was a CHANGE in it?"

Glad you asked! I'll tell you how, or rather, he will:

According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim.

"Can we infer, from that statement that it would also be your opinion that in order to find the person who orchestrated the cover-up we would have to look to someone else other than the abuser/killer?"

Not necessarily.
 
  • #79
julianne said:
Quote:
Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.
End Quote

What I'd like to know is how could Dr. McCann say there was a "change in the hymeneal structure" and what it is due to? I know he's a doctor and all, but if he didn't know what JonBenet's hymeneal structure looked like BEFORE, how could he say there was a CHANGE in it? How could anyone say that without having a known statement or photo of what it looked like before? There are many different structural classifications of hymens: annular, crescentic, septate, collar, cuff, and MANY more--all of these have vastly different appearances, and all are considered normal. Basically, what I mean is that there is no "standard"---not at all. The differences are vast and are not due to any types of injuries---it's just how they're made.

Additionally, how the person being examined is positioned can DRAMATICALLY change the appearance of the hymeneal structure. The difference in appearance while lying on one's back is vastly different when in other positions.

So, knowing that there are numerous different classifications because of the vast difference in appearances that are all considered normal, and that no one "standard" appearance, how could anyone say there is a change in the STRUCTURE of a persons hymen if you don't have a prior example of that persons hymen to compare it to?

ETA: If there was only one classification or appearance of the actual structure, then I could understand stating there was a change in that structure. But, there isn't just one classification, there are NUMEROUS ones. Also, it doesn't state in the autopsy report that she was examined in different positions, which can make quite a difference considering the appearance changes dramatically depending on what position one is in.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lord knows, even though I am female I don't have the knowledge of the many different structural classifications of hymens so that said,
the following is just an ignorant layfemale's opinion of the definition of the word "change" in reference to the quote:
"that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration."

IMO "Change" was used to indicate that the area observed which had obviously been 'damaged by penetration', had healed. This was to say that in his opinion JBR's hymen was unlike that of any structural classification of totally virginal or totally unpenetrated hymens and was characteristic of a partially penetrated hymen which had healed or changed as an injury would which showed 'scar tissue' (scar tissue was obviously not the proper medical technical term to use for this so he used the word "change" instead....

So in my 'tiny little brain', it all boils down to his definition of the word "change"..........:banghead:
 
  • #80
According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim.

All of those findings that indicated sexual abuse (bolded) are ALSO indicative of the many different structural appearances!!

To say that the measurements of the hymeneal orifice are abnormal and unusual...again, I say that one could really only make that determination if there was only ONE structural appearance or classification. But because there are MANY (there are medical sites on the web with medical decriptions and pictures that support this) different structural classifications that change the diameter of orifice simply by design...I still don't understand how he could say it was "abnormal" when he didn't know what structural class it fell into before.

It's like noses. There are many different shapes to noses. Some are shaped differently due to an injury. BUT, many many of them are shaped differently simply by design. Because A's nose appears larger and more bumpy than B's nose, it doesn't neccessarily mean that A's nose was broken. "A" could've very well been born that way.
 

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