Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

[sarx]

BBM

That is what has me confused about the hit on the carpet by JI/DB bed; they/LE did not remove pieces of the carpet for further study. ???? There must not have been anything to study further.

How do we know that none of the carpet was removed? I haven't seen anything from LE stating that they did NOT take any swatches.

 

[sarx]

Ack, why do I have this bad bad feeling I know who his "leading expert" is. I really need coffee now.
The "nail and poo" defense. I have no words.....

 

[daisy7]

How do we know that none of the carpet was removed? I haven't seen anything from LE stating that they did NOT take any swatches.

The search was conducted Wednesday and police left with six small items, according to the search warrant: a multi-colored comforter, purple shorts, a small Disney character shirt, a glow worm toy, a "Cars"-themed blanket, rolls of tape and a tape dispener.

Police looked at a roll of carpet from the garage, but left it there.

(snip)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/baby-lisa-irwin-surveillance-footage-mystery-man/story?id=14795844&page=2

This video shows the bedroom last night.

 

[believe09]

How do we know that none of the carpet was removed? I haven't seen anything from LE stating that they did NOT take any swatches.

GMA interview broadcast this morning. The carpet was intact, IIRC.

I am still not seeing a media report that indicates there was more than one dog used. I am not questioning that more than one dog needs to be used to confirm the hit on the carpet. I am not seeing anything anywhere that indicates more than one was used...so what if there wasnt more than one?

 

[sarx]

GMA interview broadcast this morning. The carpet was intact, IIRC.

I am still not seeing a media report that indicates there was more than one dog used. I am not questioning that more than one dog needs to be used to confirm the hit on the carpet. I am not seeing anything anywhere that indicates more than one was used...so what if there wasnt more than one?

I haven't had a chance to watch it, but will say that there are other ways of collecting evidence without physically tearing the carpet out, so it's not a huge surprise. I assume that they walked all around the bed and lifted the skirt if there was one?

There have been multiple dogs that have worked this case on multiple days. Not sure what has been reported in the media, but I know that even our locals were witness to this fact.

 

[Oriah]

GMA interview broadcast this morning. The carpet was intact, IIRC.

I am still not seeing a media report that indicates there was more than one dog used. I am not questioning that more than one dog needs to be used to confirm the hit on the carpet. I am not seeing anything anywhere that indicates more than one was used...so what if there wasnt more than one?

Bumping (btw this is not directed at you, believe09 just a reminder)

This is a Q&A thread re: HRD dog(s) used in Lisa's case.

If there was not more than one dog used in Lisa's case, then an HRD alert reported by handler of said HRD dog would have a much tougher time holding up in court, should a case GO to criminal court. Imo, most responsible HRD dog handlers would want a backup alert.

 

[Oriah]

The search was conducted Wednesday and police left with six small items, according to the search warrant: a multi-colored comforter, purple shorts, a small Disney character shirt, a glow worm toy, a "Cars"-themed blanket, rolls of tape and a tape dispener.

Police looked at a roll of carpet from the garage, but left it there.

(snip)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/baby-lisa-irwin-surveillance-footage-mystery-man/story?id=14795844&page=2

This video shows the bedroom last night.

dasiy7, I don't want to turn this into a discussion thread- but it is getting hard to dissect at this point, lol.
Those are the items on the inventory, correct? It is entirely possible that some of those items were seized as scent articles. And it is entirely possible that if those were scent articles taken for the purpose of HRD dog(s) scent discrimination, that there were other articles seized not listed in the SW. Mvho, of course.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Thanks for the posts today Sarx and Oriah.

Correct me if I have summarized this incorrectly, but it sounds like there are some very highly trained dogs (the best of the best) that may not be known to some of the "experts" used by the defense to cast doubt on this HRD dog hit made in the Irwin home. The fact that it was an FBI dog that made the hit makes it quite possible it was one of these very highly trained dogs.

What particularly makes these highly trained dogs special it appears is that they have been trained to differentiate between the smell of blood that came from a live human vs a dead human, and I would assume fecal matter as well. This is particularly impressive to me, because as we see with the interviews by the lawyers for DB, they want to make it sound like the dogs can't make this differentiation.

Basically, it sounds to me like the dog is a variable in the equation that makes the odds of this hit go from a "there was a dead body here" to "there may have been a dead body here, but it could have been blood, fecal matter, or something else from a live human."

In other words, the odds go down. Perhaps it is 95% likely with the best dogs in the business, and it is 75% likely with a lesser trained dog. Obviously I don't know the exact odds, just trying to assimilate the information coming out today because it has caused a little confusion for me.

Is that a correct conclusion on my part?

Thanks again.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

At 3:09 of this video, the reporter says that LE took a swatch of carpet out at the Irwin home.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/45014011#45005257

 

[Oriah]

Thanks for the posts today Sarx and Oriah.

Correct me if I have summarized this incorrectly, but it sounds like there are some very highly trained dogs (the best of the best) that may not be known to some of the "experts" used by the defense to cast doubt on this HRD dog hit made in the Irwin home. The fact that it was an FBI dog that made the hit makes it quite possible it was one of these very highly trained dogs.

What particularly makes these highly trained dogs special it appears is that they have been trained to differentiate between the smell of blood that came from a live human vs a dead human, and I would assume fecal matter as well. This is particularly impressive to me, because as we see with the interviews by the lawyers for DB, they want to make it sound like the dogs can't make this differentiation.

Basically, it sounds to me like the dog is a variable in the equation that makes the odds of this hit go from a "there was a dead body here" to "there may have been a dead body here, but it could have been blood, fecal matter, or something else from a live human."

In other words, the odds go down. Perhaps it is 95% likely with the best dogs in the business, and it is 75% likely with a lesser trained dog. Obviously I don't know the exact odds, just trying to assimilate the information coming out today because it has caused a little confusion for me.

Is that a correct conclusion on my part?

BBM:
That is correct, at least in my experience.

If- as a SAR handler/trainer, I can produce in court logs of both the consistancy of my training methods, as well as my dogs history of accurate alerts; as well as the certifications that particular dog has- a HRD 'hit' logged by myself is going to hold up a lot better should a case go to criminal court, and a HRD dog alert be called into question.

 

[nursebeeme]

The search was conducted Wednesday and police left with six small items, according to the search warrant: a multi-colored comforter, purple shorts, a small Disney character shirt, a glow worm toy, a "Cars"-themed blanket, rolls of tape and a tape dispener.

Police looked at a roll of carpet from the garage, but left it there.

(snip)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/baby-lisa-irwin-surveillance-footage-mystery-man/story?id=14795844&page=2

This video shows the bedroom last night.

part question/part comment:

I saw WELL OVER SIX ITEMs being taken out of that home on live video... and that was what I saw... who knows what they took out the back and sides of the house where we couldn't see..

which leads to my question: would LE put only the "bare bones" in the search warrant esp concerning the HRD dogs/no fly zones imposed times two because they could be concerned about their investigation details being released to the media as they are a sunshine law state?????

can they be playing any other findings the dogs may have had close to the vest for these type of reasons???

((thanks for all you do)):rocker::rocker::rocker:

 

[Oriah]

part question/part comment:

I saw WELL OVER SIX ITEMs being taken out of that home on live video... and that was what I saw... who knows what they took out the back and sides of the house where we couldn't see..

which leads to my question: would LE put only the "bare bones" in the search warrant esp concerning the HRD dogs/no fly zones imposed times two because they could be concerned about their investigation details being released to the media as they are a sunshine law state?????

can they be playing any other findings the dogs may have had close to the vest for these type of reasons???

((thanks for all you do)):rocker::rocker::rocker:

Errr....yep.

 

[Cazzie]

GMA interview broadcast this morning. The carpet was intact, IIRC.

I am still not seeing a media report that indicates there was more than one dog used. I am not questioning that more than one dog needs to be used to confirm the hit on the carpet. I am not seeing anything anywhere that indicates more than one was used...so what if there wasnt more than one?

The live feed (posted about at length on the appropriate threads) mentioned dogs plural...(paraphrasing) "the no-fly zone and distance is because LE-and-or-FBI-or-'they' are using advanced techniques and don't want the dogs to be photographed/video'd". Sorry to not be more specific, but that is what I've assessed from watching and reading.

JMO. I presume some of the precaution about filming by media (via heliocopter and on ground) is not "just" for integrity of an investigation and isolation-of-distractions-for-the-dogs-and-trainers purposes but to ensure the safety of the dogs and handlers. Many surely function as "undercover" officers and personnel. JMO.

Also, JMO, when the live feeds went out (or switched to only one area), activities were probably going on that were not "media-filming-fodder" but "LE-FBI-investigation-and-filming-fodder". Pretty sure, JMO, that communications-shielding techniques were used, because who trusts the media anymore to stay back or don't film "here"? Unless it was controlled via FAA and fear of fines imposed upon the network(s). All JMO.

Not really off-topic for the thread :angel: if you think about it.

 

[sarx]

I know this is off topic, and I will slap myself as soon as I finish typing, but I just have to back up Nurse and say yes, I watched the search warrant live feed all day long and can say with confidence that a whole lot more than 6 evidence bags came outta that property, and that's only what was in view of the camera. They're not gonna show their whole hand, not even a big part of it, hence the lil baby list that was produced.

Ok, off for the slap down.

Back to HRD questions and poop.

Oh, and I just clipped my nails and my dogs didn't do anything, though I'm not dead, so maybe that would make a difference.

Carp, sorry, no discussion. whack whack.

 

[Cazzie]

About the live feeds of the SW...I kept wondering if part of the "advanced techniques" with the dogs might have involved the trucks/vans. I thought that maybe the agents were taking samples to the dogs in the trucks/vans. Although general consensus here seemed to end up that it was x-rays being taken to the bomb squad truck. And, of course, we didn't see everything that was done (LOL).

This blends with my thoughts about undercover dogs and trainers.

Perhaps the dogs and trainers were in the vans/trucks...to isolate distractions and smells...and/or to ensure no filming for security reasons.

Just thoughts...really questions, but I'll understand if no one wants to answer. :angel:

 

[Oriah]

:slap:

I know this is off topic, and I will slap myself as soon as I finish typing, but I just have to back up Nurse and say yes, I watched the search warrant live feed all day long and can say with confidence that a whole lot more than 6 evidence bags came outta that property, and that's only what was in view of the camera. They're not gonna show their whole hand, not even a big part of it, hence the lil baby list that was produced.

Ok, off for the slap down.

Back to HRD questions and poop.

Oh, and I just clipped my nails and my dogs didn't do anything, though I'm not dead, so maybe that would make a difference.

Carp, sorry, no discussion. whack whack.

 

[Oriah]

About the live feeds of the SW...I kept wondering if part of the "advanced techniques" with the dogs might have involved the trucks/vans. I thought that maybe the agents were taking samples to the dogs in the trucks/vans. Although general consensus here seemed to end up that it was x-rays being taken to the bomb squad truck. And, of course, we didn't see everything that was done (LOL).

This blends with my thoughts about undercover dogs and trainers.

Perhaps the dogs and trainers were in the vans/trucks...to isolate distractions and smells...and/or to ensure no filming for security reasons.

Just thoughts...really questions, but I'll understand if no one wants to answer. :angel:

Isolating scent is very common in advanced scent detection. That's all I'm gonna say!

 

[sarx]

Isolating scent is very common in advanced scent detection. That's all I'm gonna say!

Yeah, what he said.

 

[sarx]

Isolating scent is very common in advanced scent detection. That's all I'm gonna say!

Yeah, what Oriah said.

 

[Oriah]

I'm a he, sarx- and you know that. Why you gotta talk about my female HRD dog like it's me???

Ok- back to the HRD scent discrimination in Lisa's case. Who's confused about HRD alerts in her case? Questions about scent discrimination welcome.