Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

[little lulu]

Just a thought, but as others have said, I believe it could have been a throw rug..beside the bed, and looking at the video again, the carpet wasn't attached at the doorway, the lawyer tugged at it...there could have been carpet over the old carpet that they took away.

 

[Oriah]

What do you make of this video? The carpeting in the room is still there? Why would they leave the carpeting where the dog hit?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/baby-lisa-irwin-surveillance-footage-mystery-man/story?id=14795844

I'm not sure. How does the media know where the HRD dog(s) hit? A handler shouldn't release that information during an active investigation- so I'm not sure the reporting is accurate. :waitasec:

 

[Oriah]

"They didn't need that carpet as they took the carpet they DID need. Maybe the dog did hit on the carpet in their room, but the other carpet was much more of a hit? Is that possible?"

someone posted that in another thread,im curious too....

thanks to sarx and oriah for answering these questions

Well, we have footage of a carpet being removed. It is very possible that other items were removed as well (that we do not have footage of- remember- the no media/no fly/SW?)
So I'm pretty sure we do not know what has been taken into evidence regarding the HRD alerts. HTH. I know it is frustrating.

 

[daisy7]

I'm not sure. How does the media know where the HRD dog(s) hit? A handler shouldn't release that information during an active investigation- so I'm not sure the reporting is accurate. :waitasec:

It was in the SW released that the hit was on the floor next to the parents' bed.

 

[Oriah]

It was in the SW released that the hit was on the floor next to the parents' bed.

Was the warrant for removal of the carpet or subfloor in that bedroom? TIA.
Sorry- trying to keep up with a lot of questions here.

 

[MamaK]

Was the warrant for removal of the carpet or subfloor in that bedroom? TIA.
Sorry- trying to keep up with a lot of questions here.

I know I saw that they took a huge carpet out of the house while executing the SW but I'm not sure if they took it with them or not. I don't think that they did but I can't be 100% sure so I don't want to state as a fact. Sorry!

 

[grandmaj]

http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

Oriah in the affadavit for the search warrant. Page 6 is where some of this information is coming from. But we don't know if this is the same carpet I don't think. It is possible that there are redacted records also about what was taken because of an ongoing investigation.

http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

 

[Oriah]

http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

Oriah in the affadavit for the search warrant. Page 6 is where some of this information is coming from. But we don't know if this is the same carpet I don't think. It is possible that there are redacted records also about what was taken because of an ongoing investigation.

http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

Ah. Thank you grandmaj.

Where is the carpet in the evidence report, though, that indicates that was what was seized re: the HRD alerts(s)??
Confused. I need to do a little more research. Was that possibly redacted? Trying to catch up here.

 

[Oriah]

O/T but hi sarx- your turn! Please figure this out for me!

 

[sarx]

Ah. Thank you grandmaj.

Where is the carpet in the evidence report, though, that indicates that was what was seized re: the HRD alerts(s)??
Confused. I need to do a little more research. Was that possibly redacted? Trying to catch up here.

I think the rest just hasn't been released. They took a whole lot outta that house.

 

[Oriah]

I think the rest just hasn't been released. They took a whole lot outta that house.

Well that certainly makes sense. Thank you. I was completely confused by the no carpet/carpet/carpet-from-elsewhere HRD alert convo. I *might* possibly be tired.

 

[grandmaj]

I don't think we really know what came out of the house in total yet. Now I'm putting myself on time out for having discussion in a non discussion thread. :floorlaugh: But it is important in assisting the :great: SAR folks in answering these questions! :wink:

 

[Oriah]

I don't think we really know what came out of the house in total yet. Now I'm putting myself on time out for having discussion in a non discussion thread. :floorlaugh: But it is important in assisting the :great: SAR folks in answering these questions! :wink:

I appreciate the affadavit update, grandmaj- truly.

I have been trying to keep up with this thread (based on the Q&A HRD dog hits) and then stuff comes in and it's like, whaaaa???
Ask me a question and I'll give you an answer, lol!
Ok- out of confusion now. So what's the next HRD question??!

 

[MamaK]

I appreciate the affadavit update, grandmaj- truly.

I have been trying to keep up with this thread (based on the Q&A HRD dog hits) and then stuff comes in and it's like, whaaaa???
Ask me a question and I'll give you an answer, lol!
Ok- out of confusion now. So what's the next HRD question??!

:seeya:me me me :seeya: :innocent:

If remains spent some time in, for example a blanket, and then that blanket was left on the floor, would a dog hit on the floor even after the blanket was removed? TIA

 

[Oriah]

:seeya:me me me :seeya: :innocent:

If remains spent some time in, for example a blanket, and then that blanket was left on the floor, would a dog hit on the floor even after the blanket was removed? TIA

Possibly.
It would depend upon the the type of human remains on the blanket to begin with, the length of time the remains were on the blanket- as well as what sort of blanket it was, etc. The blanket would have to leach scent particles through it onto the floor or substrate. (Sorry- that is kinda graphic.)

 

[MamaK]

Possibly.
It would depend upon the the type of human remains on the blanket to begin with, the length of time the remains were on the blanket- as well as what sort of blanket it was, etc. The blanket would have to leach scent particles through it onto the floor or substrate. (Sorry- that is kinda graphic.)

So, if for example, newly passed remains were in contact with the blanket for under an hour, then the blanket probably wouldn't have enough on it to transfer to the carpet? TIA

 

[MsFacetious]

Okay... got it I think. So let's have a hypothetical.

Say YOU were called in on this specific case... to look specifically for LISA... a deceased Lisa in that house.


Say your dog found absolutely nothing, alerts to nothing... zilch... notta in that search for a deceased LISA..

Then, you were called back later and asked to come back and look for any sign of ANY deceased human... not just Lisa but ANYONE...


What if your dog then alerts while looking for a general deceased person?

What is ORIAH'S thought process going to be?

"Oh... wow that baby died in this house."

"They didn't alert when we came through looking for Lisa, so it must be someone else...they haven't lived in the house all that long...
I wonder who lived here before?"

Does that question make sense? That is what I really want to know.

If YOUR dog did not hit while looking for a deceased Lisa but DID when looking for any deceased person...
What would that mean to YOU as far as WHO was deceased?

Sort of correct.

But first of all, these steps would not necessarily be alerts.
Hypothetical situation:

For example, step 1 would be a track or trail- not an HRD dog. A "my baby is missing, she can walk." So going on that assumption, they would try to track/trail an alive baby. Now let's say her trail doesn't leave the residence- but she's nowhere to be found in the residence, and there are no alerts inside the residence. So now we think she may have been kidnapped- so we take an air scent dog outside the residence and see if we can pick up her scent there (someone carrying her out of the residence.) Let's say no luck there.

Now in the meantime, keep in mind that other intelligence is being gathered using other investigative tools concurrently. And let's say LE has reason to suspect the baby may have died in the home. So then they bring an HRD dog out to see if it will alert on any HR evidence of the baby. Let's say that dog alerts on the mattress in the baby's crib- but no baby, and no visible evidence of anything associated with HR's. So then they go get another HRD dog and that dog alerts on the baby's mattress as well. Mattress goes off for forensics.
Then someone says, "Well, we bought that mattress at a yard sale- the person who sold it to us said it had been their grandbabys mattress 20 years ago. Is it possible that another baby died on it long before we bought it?"
Well yes, of course that is possible- but unless there are physical remains (lets say, a big stain on the mattress that the owners claim was there when they bought it) an HRD dog trained in aged remains is not going to have anything to work with, because they need scent deposit to be physical in nature. Does that make any sense, or have I just thoroughly confused everyone, lol?

Obviously this is a hypothetical situation; and only the way I would work a case similar to this one- so, mvhoo.

 

[Oriah]

So, if for example, newly passed remains were in contact with the blanket for under an hour, then the blanket probably wouldn't have enough on it to transfer to the carpet? TIA

No, not necessarily.

What would most certainly be the case- is that there would be much more of a scent deposit on the blanket that came into contact with human remains than the carpet the blanket was on.

In this scenario, a lot would depend upon what sort of scent particles were deposited on the blanket to begin with. And (again in this scenario) as for HRD dog alerts- a properly trained dog should have alerted on the blanket initially. Then if the blanket was removed and HR scent remained underneath- the dog should have alerted again on the substrate the blanket was on. Then it should have continued to alert as each scent item was removed, until no more decomp present.
Does that make sense?

 

[MamaK]

No, not necessarily.

What would most certainly be the case- is that there would be much more of a scent deposit on the blanket that came into contact with human remains than the carpet the blanket was on.

In this scenario, a lot would depend upon what sort of scent particles were deposited on the blanket to begin with. And (again in this scenario) as for HRD dog alerts- a properly trained dog should have alerted on the blanket initially. Then if the blanket was removed and HR scent remained underneath- the dog should have alerted again on the substrate the blanket was on. Then it should have continued to alert as each scent item was removed, until no more decomp present.
Does that make sense?

Yes, awesome explanation! Thanks!!!

 

[Oriah]

Okay... got it I think. So let's have a hypothetical.

Say YOU were called in on this specific case... to look specifically for LISA... a deceased Lisa in that house.


Say your dog found absolutely nothing, alerts to nothing... zilch... notta in that search for a deceased LISA..

Then, you were called back later and asked to come back and look for any sign of ANY deceased human... not just Lisa but ANYONE...


What if your dog then alerts while looking for a general deceased person?

What is ORIAH'S thought process going to be?

"Oh... wow that baby died in this house."

"They didn't alert when we came through looking for Lisa, so it must be someone else...they haven't lived in the house all that long...
I wonder who lived here before?"

Does that question make sense? That is what I really want to know.

If YOUR dog did not hit while looking for a deceased Lisa but DID when looking for any deceased person...
What would that mean to YOU as far as WHO was deceased?

If one of my HRD dogs didn't alert on anything in a residence, I'd say- there is no human who recently died in this residence... nor is there any evidence that human remains are here- or were recently. Including transference of HR scent

If my aged HRD dog alerted on something in a residence that had scent particles associated with it, I'd think to myself- maybe there are/were human remains here at some point.
HTH.