I can't find a hole in this theory...

[OpenMind4U]

Funny, but all the stupid mistakes seem to have been made by Patsy. All we ever got from John were lies.

Perfect observation! And you know why Patsy made more 'stupid' mistakes? Because Patsy by her nature (yes, profiling again!) is more unstable, phisically and emothionally drained (possibly, due to her long years of fight with cancer). Plus, she's woman and mother. These attributes makes a lot of impacts to her rational thinking and behavior.

John, on another hand, is...well, I'm not going to profile him. I don't want to make your blood presure go's up...so, let's leave it here...You know what I find very-very-very interesting? In the last pages of Kolar book, he described Lockheed Martin/AccessGraphic bussiness. Without telling you much (if you choose not believe me - it's fine), I'm very much familiar w/Lockheed Martin way of doing bussiness. This is very strong, powerfull (politically and otherwise) entity. At one point of time, JR was attempt to buy OUT his Access Graphic from them? Right, 'stupid' move....however, the point what I'm trying to make: not everyone could work (or allow to work) as CEO under Lockheed Martin roof. They'll take the best out of the BEST only, iron-fit, strong head, and they'll PROFILE you before they'll hire you!!!! This is the FACT!....so, you have the Patsy/Miss West Virginia versa John/CEO under Lockheed Martin....think about.......

 

[txsvicki]

They both seem like total narcissists. One the typical workaholic ceo obsessed with money and the other a histrionic drama queen obsessed with outer image. Neither one one had their success very long before it all unravelled. Neither one could interract with others very well at all so it's no wonder mistakes were made. They really didn't even seem capable of carrying on a normal conversation much less plan or cover up a murder without lots of attorneys.

 

[OpenMind4U]

They both seem like total narcissists. One the typical workaholic ceo obsessed with money and the other a histrionic drama queen obsessed with outer image. Neither one one had their success very long before it all unravelled. Neither one could interract with others very well at all so it's no wonder mistakes were made. They really didn't even seem capable of carrying on a normal conversation much less plan or cover up a murder without lots of attorneys.

I don't know. I never been in their company, never witnessed their conversations under 'normal' situation. But they have enough political power and monetory wealth to hire and continue to retain the BEST attorneys, for 16 years.

 

[Chrishope]

Try to imagine if you can, the state of mind of the parents that night. It would border on insanity. Adrenaline can help us do things we never thought we would and cortisol helps us through the stress. The parents WERE in charge. They did what they felt they should to cover up what was an unintentional death. (different from an accidental death).
We are ALL "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" here, and armchair detectives. We do the best we can with the available information and form our theories accordingly.
A call to the pilot (who was also a personal friend) was likely made LONG before JR was overheard by police trying to arrange a flight to Atlanta while his daughter's body was lying under the Christmas Tree. They were supposed to be at that airport at 7 am. As far as we know, the pilot did not call to see where they were or come to see what happened. There were police in the home by 6 am, minutes after the 911 call. No calls came in. Other than the pastor and friends, no one came to the house to see why they were not at the airport. So the pilot KNEW.
They HAD to call the police eventually. What were they going to say when there was no more JB around? A DEAD child means an autopsy ALWAYS. Even when a child dies of a known illness or in the hospital. They might have known some things would have been discovered (pineapple in her digestive tract, internal vaginal injuries) but they obviously knew her body would be examined. This was a dead child with NO apparent cause of death. Someone was going to try to determine the cause.
Claiming she was kidnapped (when it was obvious she was still in the house) was what they came up with. So did Casey Anthony, though she "knew the person" who had Caylee. Worked pretty well for them, didn't it? None of them were held responsible for the deaths of their children.
No one knows what they really were thinking. There are obviously things they did that in retrospect were "stupid" (your words, not mine) or made them look guilty.
Doesn't mean they were not involved.

Staging a kidnapping, by use of a RN, then letting the body be found, thereby undoing the staging is what they came up with? Really, give them some credit for some brains.

 

[Tadpole12]

OK, good thinking, Chris. But I think the plan I've outlined isn't as weak as it might seem. (Whether it was actually what John had in mind we may never know.)



I think he could have brought the ransom note with him to the bank, shown it to the bank manager, and pleaded with him NOT to call the police, out of fear his daughter would be "beheaded." The manager would then be put in the position of being responsible for JonBenet's death if he called the police, so I think there'd have been a good chance he'd cooperate.



If the bank manager cooperated, then there'd have been no surveillance. This was of course risky, but the whole plan was a huge risk. He probably felt he had no choice but to take that risk.



No. He'd have collected the cash on the 26th. The "kidnappers" would have "monitored" him collecting the cash and thus called "early," as stated in the note. He'd have gone home, completed his staging, collected the body and all the other evidence, and waited till dark. If he were extra smart, he'd have made a copy of the note on his computer, so he could show it to the authorities later. But the note itself would have to be destroyed.

At this point only Patsy, Burke, a few friends and the bank manager would be aware of the "kidnapping" and all would have been sworn to secrecy. So the police would not be involved at this point. Then, under cover of darkness, he'd have driven his car to some remote spot with the body in the trunk, and either dumped it or buried it, depending on how comfortable he felt that he wouldn't be spotted. If anyone noticed his car in the area, he would have explained that by claiming he was delivering the ransom.



Well, we have no way of knowing what he was thinking. But I've thought it through pretty carefully and imo he might well have gotten away with it. I think it was an excellent plan. We should never underestimate John Ramsey.

Heyya docg.

The manager would then be put in the position of being responsible for JonBenet's death if he called the police, so I think there'd have been a good chance he'd cooperate.

I see that as a definite improbability. Plausible in a work of fiction, but given bank protocol, a faulty assumption.

A question, docg .....If JDI, JR as the architect, why does he even bother to stage when he could have so easily ushered his family to the plane or a second location, hotel, what ev and notified the police well after the fact.
Within JDI, if he operates alone, he could have dictated a series of responses, events, advising PR that he was following security measures of LM.

 

[DeeDee249]

Staging a kidnapping, by use of a RN, then letting the body be found, thereby undoing the staging is what they came up with? Really, give them some credit for some brains.

How would the body NOT be found? Of course she was always going to be found at some point. Do you think they'd just let her rot in the house? Be found by the mover who packed up the house? Be found by cadaver dogs when the neighbors noticed the smell? No way. She was always going to "found". The only part of the staging the body contradicted was the note. BUT the note was NEEDED regardless, otherwise all they had was a dead child in the house and no good way to explain it.
They had to "let" her be found. In their plan, finding her body in the house was not inconsistent with a kidnapper leaving a ransom note. They hoped it was not inconsistent in anyone else's mind either. I think they hoped LE and everyone else would buy into their plan. Then, after all the police and friends and clergy left them alone, they'd devise a plan to call police and say she'd been returned...dead. This didn't happen because police never left them alone in the house. They realized they were not going to be allowed to remain in the house once it was declared a crime scene and taped off, and I bet they never figured on this happening.

Their "brains"had nothing to do with it. They did the only thing they thought they could do.

 

[Tadpole12]

docg, did he answer your query?

http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.ca/2012/07/the-purpose-of-note.html

"I recently wrote Kolar and asked him why why he paid so little attention to the possibility that John might have killed her." - docg

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I find it stunning that the same people who are arguing that PR wiped down the outside and INSIDE of a flashlight also staged an entire crime scene while wearing her clothes from that evening, leaving evidence of her participation everywhere.

Got it.

I don't think Pasty wearing the same clothes from the night before was on her radar that morning. She may of thought she'd covered up everything that needed to be done. It was a pack of missing panties and Pasty jacket that caught up with Pasty.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

If John and Patsy were in on this together, they would have been in complete charge of the situation. The trip could easily have been cancelled "due to illness." There would have been no need to rush. How much time would it have taken for Patsy to shower and change anyhow, maybe 10 minutes at most?

People write about profiling all the time on this forum. Well, what is the profile of a criminal so clever as to pen a ransom note that to this day remains a mystery, yet so stupid as to neglect to change her clothes before calling the police? So stupid, also, as to give a phoney ransom note written in her own hand to the police, so it could be used as evidence against her. So stupid also as to call the police so early, with the body of the victim still in the house, thus negating the whole point of the note.

They had a 7:00am flight to Michigan to meet up with John's two older children. What kind of reason could they of given them. They just couldn't go dump or bury JonBenet and go on with life. They would have to give an account of her whereabouts pretty quick. Even if you went with dumping or burying JonBenet there would still be Pasty's fibers and those big panties on JonBenet, but not any fiber's etc. from a small foreign faction.


I wonder what was going through John Ramsey's head as he took off in a corporate jet flying his dead little girl back to Georgia.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It's interesting to think about how different this case would be if the R's had dumped JonBenet's body outside.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

How would the body NOT be found? Of course she was always going to be found at some point. Do you think they'd just let her rot in the house? Be found by the mover who packed up the house? Be found by cadaver dogs when the neighbors noticed the smell? No way. She was always going to "found". The only part of the staging the body contradicted was the note. BUT the note was NEEDED regardless, otherwise all they had was a dead child in the house and no good way to explain it.
They had to "let" her be found. In their plan, finding her body in the house was not inconsistent with a kidnapper leaving a ransom note. They hoped it was not inconsistent in anyone else's mind either. I think they hoped LE and everyone else would buy into their plan. Then, after all the police and friends and clergy left them alone, they'd devise a plan to call police and say she'd been returned...dead. This didn't happen because police never left them alone in the house. They realized they were not going to be allowed to remain in the house once it was declared a crime scene and taped off, and I bet they never figured on this happening.

Their "brains"had nothing to do with it. They did the only thing they thought they could do.

I wonder if anyone mentioned bringing in tracking dogs to see which way JonBenet taken was out of the house? If they did then they would of led them straight to the wine cellar. She had to be found before that happened. There wasn't anyone else to track.

 

[sandover]

Heyya docg.



I see that as a definite improbability. Plausible in a work of fiction, but given bank protocol, a faulty assumption.

A question, docg .....If JDI, JR as the architect, why does he even bother to stage when he could have so easily ushered his family to the plane or a second location, hotel, what ev and notified the police well after the fact.
Within JDI, if he operates alone, he could have dictated a series of responses, events, advising PR that he was following security measures of LM.

He had to stage -- if the body was ever found after he dumped it, it had to look like a foreign faction had killed her, brutalized her in a way consistent with the note.

If she just appeared to have died due to a head trauma, that wouldn't have seemed like the work of a "foreign faction."

Also, JR had to cover up evidence of his repeated sexual abuse of JB. That meant he needed to cause injury to JB's vagina that night, in the hopes that were her body ever found, it would again appear that the vaginal injuries were due to the "foreign faction."

He was covering up not only his murder of JB but his sexual abuse of her. He was smart and knew that even if dumped in a remote place her body would someday be found, most likely. That's why he "staged" the body as part of his plan.

 

[dodie20]

I've been thinking about something, and although it's not exactly a hole, it's interesting. If we believe a neighbor heard JB scream, then she must have screamed very loud. So, if JR ws the cause for the scream, why didn't PR run and see what was wrong? or BR? Well, the housekeeper said that when PR would take JB to the bathroom, there was a lot of screaming, crying, etc. Honestly, what this Could look like, is JR and BR were used to the screaming, and were unfazed...just another mother/daughter fight? MOO

 

[Chrishope]

How would the body NOT be found? Of course she was always going to be found at some point. Do you think they'd just let her rot in the house? Be found by the mover who packed up the house? Be found by cadaver dogs when the neighbors noticed the smell? No way. She was always going to "found". The only part of the staging the body contradicted was the note. BUT the note was NEEDED regardless, otherwise all they had was a dead child in the house and no good way to explain it.
They had to "let" her be found. In their plan, finding her body in the house was not inconsistent with a kidnapper leaving a ransom note. They hoped it was not inconsistent in anyone else's mind either. I think they hoped LE and everyone else would buy into their plan. Then, after all the police and friends and clergy left them alone, they'd devise a plan to call police and say she'd been returned...dead. This didn't happen because police never left them alone in the house. They realized they were not going to be allowed to remain in the house once it was declared a crime scene and taped off, and I bet they never figured on this happening.

Their "brains"had nothing to do with it. They did the only thing they thought they could do.

The only part of the staging the body contradicted was the note.

Oh, only that small detail? The RN is the only thing that makes it, temporarily, a kidnapping case.

They had to "let" her be found. In their plan, finding her body in the house was not inconsistent with a kidnapper leaving a ransom note. They hoped it was not inconsistent in anyone else's mind either.

Ok, so you're falling back on the notion that the Rs are very very stupid. How could anyone with two brain cells to rub together not realize a RN and a body, in the same house, at the same time, are not inconsistent.

Then, after all the police and friends and clergy left them alone, they'd devise a plan to call police and say she'd been returned...dead. This didn't happen because police never left them alone in the house. They realized they were not going to be allowed to remain in the house once it was declared a crime scene and taped off, and I bet they never figured on this happening.

With 15 seconds of forethought they would have realized that there is no way they could claim the kidnappers brought her back - for all the reasons you just stated.

There is no way around it, if you want to believe the Rs actually planned for the police to find both a RN and a body, then you have to assume they were very stupid.

Obviously this wasn't the only thing they could do. Almost all of us who are RDI have considered that the original plan was to dump the body. Most of us just never got beyond that point, assuming the Rs had abandoned that part of the plan, for reasons unknown. So we left this major inconsistency (The RN + Body) in place, working around it. The inconsistency is now explained. The plan to dump the body was not abandoned, it was interfered with.

 

[Chrishope]

I wonder if anyone mentioned bringing in tracking dogs to see which way JonBenet taken was out of the house? If they did then they would of led them straight to the wine cellar. She had to be found before that happened. There wasn't anyone else to track.

I don't know if the authorities ever did, but I have posted many times that bringing in a K9 unit was something the killer/stager would have to anticipate (unless he was very stupid). Therefore, any theory based on the body not being found isn't sound. There was almost no chance at all the body wasn't going to be found. It's only a fluke that it took 7 hours.

Imagine if they'd brought the dogs in first thing (or if French had opened that door) the body would have been found before 6:30am.

 

[rashomon]

DocG, in one short blog post, has summed up his theory. Those who want more detail can examine his blog in depth. Try as I might, I cannot find a flaw in this theory, and in all my years of studying the case it is the only theory which makes psychological and practical sense. I'd like to dedicate this thread to anyone who would like to challenge this theory, because I believe we will only know if it is the likely scenario if it withstands the harshest challenges.

http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/making-case.html

In case dogc thinks Patsy did not collaborate with John, a JDI theory contains major evidentiary holes, like:
1) The ransom note written by Patsy.
2) The fibers from the jacket Patsy had been wearing to the Whites' party, which were found in crucial locations directly connected with JonBenet's violent death: on the duct tape, in the cord wrapped around the wooden handle, in the paint tray, and on the blanket covering the body.

Holes in behavioral evidence:
3) Patsy lying about JonBenet having been asleep when they arrived home.
4) Patsy watching the policeman through splayed fingers.

 

[DeeDee249]

Like so much else in this case, the scream is inconclusive. It's not clear whether the person reporting it actually heard a scream that night or not. All sorts of tests were done to learn if Patsy could have heard a scream from the basement and they were, of course, just like everything else about this case: inconclusive.

Since so much of the "evidence" is inconclusive, i.e., no help at all, I decided to focus ONLY on the known facts, i.e., what is NOT inconclusive. And on that basis I feel very strongly that I was able to determine who was responsible for this crime. As for most of the other evidence, it might help us to think through what might have happened, but we can't really rely on it.

Police tests WERE conclusive- a scream from the basement could be heard from the parents' third-floor bedroom as well as from the home of the neighbor across the street. This presumes a scream in the basement. But as JB's room was 1 floor below her parents' room, and the open stairwell was right near there, her scream would have carried to their room. I don't know if the scream theory was tested in the kitchen or anywhere else.

 

[midwest mama]

I find it stunning that the same people who are arguing that PR wiped down the outside and INSIDE of a flashlight also staged an entire crime scene while wearing her clothes from that evening, leaving evidence of her participation everywhere.

Got it.

:waitasec:Might not have been PR wiping the flashlight. Could have been JR or BR.

 

[DeeDee249]

:waitasec:Might not have been PR wiping the flashlight. Could have been JR or BR.

Or one of the many "friends and victim advocates" who were all there BEFORE the crime scene photos and evidence was taken. They were SEEN wiping the counters. Who knows what else they "cleaned up"?
We really have no proof it was Patsy.

 

[rashomon]

So she never got undressed, killed her daughter, elaborately staged her, didn't change any clothing at all and called 911 and invited the cops in to her home. Got it.

The staging wasn't done elaborately, but quite clumsily. Just think of the ransom note written with pen and paper from the home, wrist ties whose looseness made them unfunctional, etc.
This 'clumsiness' itself indicates that the stager's mind wasn't functioning in a rational manner. No surprise, given the circumstances.
This type of staging is in sync with a parent whose mind was frantically running in a 'panic' mode, trying to misdirect LE, and who saw no other option than to use material from the home to stage the scene.