IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #16

[MotherOcean]

I believe that Mr C's wife corrected him because they were asked by LE not to tell the 12-1 time. . .but a 12-3 window would be ok. He said 12-1. . .woops :doh:. . . and she corrected him (No, dear. The nice folks with the FBI told us to say 12-3.)

This leads me to believe that LE is working with 2 times. . .2 distinctive events. IMOO the abduction between 12-1 and something else between 1-3. The fact that they were looking at the cctv at Casey's around 2 just solidifies that for me.

MOO

I totally agree. There is some reason that LE has broadened the time-line or purposely kept some things related to it vague. I believe Mr. C was told to not reveal a more specific time when the girls passed by his house.

And speaking of vague... if the FBI lady was talking about the biker when she said the "runner", then why is it that on the very next day Abben acted as if he knew nothing about the biker? He just bumbled and mumbled and never really said anything. He even acted oddly about the cctv because he said he had only known about it because he had seen it on the news. The more that I think about it the stranger that last press conference seemed to be.

 

[TxLady2]

My husband has two brothers, one four years younger than him, the other eight years younger.

The youngest brother has a very clear memory of his great-grandmother sitting in her rocker in the kitchen, peeling apples to make pie, giving the peel to the great-grandbabies, chopping the apples and then putting them in the crust, etc. Just an ordinary sort of memory, nothing weird about it.

Except that great-grandma died about six months before he was born.

It's pretty clear how it happened. Great-grandma loved to bake and she was well known for the excellence of her apple pies. My husband also has memories of playing in the kitchen and Great-grandma giving him apple peel as a treat. The family often spoke of Great-grandma with great love and affection.

And voila, a confabulated memory was born.

I am certain my brother-in-law isn't lying. He really does have such a memory but it's a confabulated memory rather than a real one. Intellectually he knows that his great-grandmother did not live to meet him but the confabulated memory is impossible for him to discern from real memories.

Elizabeth Loftus has done research coming up with similar conclusions.

Oh, this hits so close to home for me! I have virtually no memories of anything before I was about 5, but my mother told me so many things that happened, I can "see" them happening, just like I really remember it.
There is such a thing as a false memory. It's hard to explain, but we think we remember things in great detail, but our brains play tricks on us.
For instance... I have a distinct memory of something that I think happened when I was very young. But as the years have gone by, the details of that memory have faded and I am left wondering if it really happened or I dreamed it. To this day, I don't know! Not anything bad or terrible, just to clear that up... but it seems so odd to me, that I wonder if it really happened.
Sorry for the O/T, but eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable as evidence because very few people can remember every detail exactly, every time they tell the story. Something is going to change, and it is not always purposeful, they just remember it a little different than they did the first time.

 

[MotherOcean]

I'm not clear on something...

has it been said that HC or someone else in the family has said that they friended someone on FB that they now think is the perp?

:what:

I had read that she (HC) thought someone who knew the girls was the perp. but not anything about friending a possible perp. on FB. If it's true that she said that then they do have a specific person in mind.

Oh, boy...

 

[TxLady2]

That's probably true to some extent, but if they didn't worry at all about the risks, why would they be so hard to track down? During the summer in a smaller town that is normally seen as peaceful, I would expect there to be many young kids/girls playing outside. There would most likely be at least one that would be alone and in a fairly 'safe' place for an abduction. I tend to think if it was just someone's urges getting too strong, he'd grab one of them; which makes me think he/they have some connection to one or both of the girls and it's more personal than that.

They don't worry about the risks at that time... of being caught while they are abducting them. Once they get them subdued and taken to wherever they plan to do whatever they are going to do, then they will take steps to keep themselves hidden. But at that moment in time, they are not thinking so much about the risks as they are about their gratification.

 

[Fukiyama]

I'm not clear on something...

has it been said that HC or someone else in the family has said that they friended someone on FB that they now think is the perp?

:what:

I had read that she (HC) thought someone who knew the girls was the perp. but not anything about friending a possible perp. on FB. If it's true that she said that then they do have a specific person in mind.

Oh, boy...

My understanding is that HC was stating that she and her husband were thinking the girls were taken by someone the girls knew and that this someone may very well be someone the Collinses have friended on Facebook either before or after the abductions, assuming the person to be a friend/well-wisher.

 

[Beyond Belief]

I am so hung up on the lake behind river road its driving me crazy. That property is huge with all kinds of water that looks swampy. I sure would like to know whats going on back there, I am afraid they are filling the land. moo

 

[MotherOcean]

I am so hung up on the lake behind river road its driving me crazy. That property is huge with all kinds of water that looks swampy. I sure would like to know whats going on back there, I am afraid they are filling the land. moo

Are you talking about Hanson Lake?

 

[nervous_nellie]

My understanding is that HC was stating that she and her husband were thinking the girls were taken by someone the girls knew and that this someone may very well be someone the Collinses have friended on Facebook either before or after the abductions, assuming the person to be a friend/well-wisher.

wow...ive been away for a day, when did this info break? if this is true then maybe they are getting closer to finding them...i sure hope this is the case....

 

[TxLady2]

I wanted to add. . .it's not just fear and doubt. . .it's shame. Unfortunately, victims will usually blame themselves. It makes no rational sense, but I know it's true. It's why I am always impressed with some of these victims that come forward that don't seem to feel any shame for what happened to them. It's important to teach our children that it's not their fault. . .no matter the situation.

This is very true! It has to be hard to get up on the stand in a courtroom and suffer through a defense attorney badgering a victim, trying to put the blame on them instead of the perpetrator, and anyone who can do it and not fall apart is a hero in my eyes! Elizabeth Smart had the support of her parents and her siblings and many, many other people, but still it had to be horrifying for her just to tell the story. I admire her so much, for what she's doing now!

 

[Beyond Belief]

Are you talking about Hanson Lake?

Yes, Hanson Lake, reservoir.
http://travelingluck.com/North America/United States/Iowa/_4859735_Hanson Lake.html

you have scroll down to see the map

 

[hambirg]

I totally agree. There is some reason that LE has broadened the time-line or purposely kept some things related to it vague. I believe Mr. C was told to not reveal a more specific time when the girls passed by his house.

And speaking of vague... if the FBI lady was talking about the biker when she said the "runner", then why is it that on the very next day Abben acted as if he knew nothing about the biker? He just bumbled and mumbled and never really said anything. He even acted oddly about the cctv because he said he had only known about it because he had seen it on the news. The more that I think about it the stranger that last press conference seemed to be.

MOO

I don't think she misspoke.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Oh, this hits so close to home for me! I have virtually no memories of anything before I was about 5, but my mother told me so many things that happened, I can "see" them happening, just like I really remember it.
There is such a thing as a false memory. It's hard to explain, but we think we remember things in great detail, but our brains play tricks on us.
For instance... I have a distinct memory of something that I think happened when I was very young. But as the years have gone by, the details of that memory have faded and I am left wondering if it really happened or I dreamed it. To this day, I don't know! Not anything bad or terrible, just to clear that up... but it seems so odd to me, that I wonder if it really happened.
Sorry for the O/T, but eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable as evidence because very few people can remember every detail exactly, every time they tell the story. Something is going to change, and it is not always purposeful, they just remember it a little different than they did the first time.

Exactly!

The research of Elizabeth Loftus shows that false memories can be triggered by something as little as a question. For example, in one study, the researchers showed subjects a film of a car crash. Afterwards they asked the victims to describe the car crash.

They found that if the researcher asked "did you notice the broken headlight?" a significant number of people would clearly describe a broken headlight even though it was not broken in the film. Those false memories were triggered less than 5 minutes after seeing the event.

Law enforcement interviewers try to avoid leading questions but can inadvertently put one in without intending to. Plus, with a case like this where just about everyone in the area is no doubt talking about it, there's a high risk of people accidentally muddling each other's memories.

None of this has anything to do with lying or dishonest; it's just how the brain works. Despite the popular myth that we remember everything we've seen and the only problem is accessing the memories, the truth is that what we remember is not at all like a video tape. It keeps changing in the mind and we are not able to detect the changes ourselves.

So, for example, did Mr and Mrs C actually see Elizabeth frequently? If they did, it means that Heather Collins and Wylma Cook were mistaken. And even if Mr and Mrs C did see Elizabeth frequently, did Mr C actually see her on 13 July?

I think without corroborating forensic evidence, it's too difficult to evaluate any of the eye witness testimony.

 

[nikb]

For those who didn't know, there was a really neat event in honor of Lyric and Elizabeth today. The "Ride and Drive" event. Here's a little more about it: http://www.creativeimpactco.com/content/EvansdaleAugust32012.pdf

There's a lot more on Facebook. I know I'm limited in what I can post here from there, but I'm hoping this much is OK since it's not exactly a "rumor." It's an event that happened, the photos just haven't made their way to MSM yet that I can find. I'm sure that at least some of them will, and I tried to edit out anything that someone might have concerns about (i.e. readable license plate #s). I know I should be patient... but I really feel compelled to share a couple of these tonight just to keep people inspired.

 

[Considering]

wow...ive been away for a day, when did this info break? if this is true then maybe they are getting closer to finding them...i sure hope this is the case....

You can go read it for yourself on Heather's FB page. However, I think this is just a generalization. I don't believe she has a particular person in mind from what I read.

 

[GrainneDhu]

My understanding is that HC was stating that she and her husband were thinking the girls were taken by someone the girls knew and that this someone may very well be someone the Collinses have friended on Facebook either before or after the abductions, assuming the person to be a friend/well-wisher.

This is an example of why I fervently believe that justice is for the living and for the innocent. It's not just my belief that the dead are beyond caring about justice. It's because life is so hard for those who remain behind.

It sounds like HC may be starting to examine and re-examine everyone she knows in the area, wondering if she was in some way horribly deceived by someone. That's gotta be shaking her ability to trust in other people. She will probably start to wonder about anyone new she meets as well.

And then there are the people who are suspected but factually innocent. It doesn't have to go as far as being charged for such suspicion to be stressful and affect someone's life. Just knowing that one is suspected and cannot prove their innocence (because a negative cannot be proven) is a terrible thing.

 

[otto]

I'm way behind on the thread, but I finally figured out why calling the police so soon after the girls were last seen just didn't sit well with me all this time. I visited my daughter this afternoon. She has two daughters, aged 9 and 11. I normally don't discuss this hobby with anyone, but I mentioned this case to her ... in part because her four children had gone for a walk in the woods, to a pond and they were expected home by 2:30. It was 3:30 and they still weren't back. I wondered how long they had to be gone before she panicked. She wasn't the least bit concerned that they were taking longer than planned. That seemed normal to me. I guess that's how she was raised.

I described the timeline in this case and how quickly police were called. My daughter wondered why five adults were immediately called to search for the children and then the police were notified ... without first calling friends. That's what is missing in this case ... the family immediately went to panic mode, mobilized all the parents and soon after the police ... but I don't recall anything about calling friends of the children.

This suggests to me that the family had some sense that something was off right away ... but why.

 

[MotherOcean]

Yes, Hanson Lake, reservoir.
http://travelingluck.com/North America/United States/Iowa/_4859735_Hanson Lake.html

you have scroll down to see the map

I am not aware of any searches south of the interstate but I find that area concerning. Hanson Lake is less than a mile to Deerwood Park. I have hoped to hear that Cedar Valley Nature Trail has been searched south of the interstate but so far I haven't found any info. about it. I think that trail should be searched thoroughly but I'm not local so I don't really know the terrain. Looking at Google & Bing it appears there are quite a few areas down that way that should be looked at, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

Exactly!

The research of Elizabeth Loftus shows that false memories can be triggered by something as little as a question. For example, in one study, the researchers showed subjects a film of a car crash. Afterwards they asked the victims to describe the car crash.

They found that if the researcher asked "did you notice the broken headlight?" a significant number of people would clearly describe a broken headlight even though it was not broken in the film. Those false memories were triggered less than 5 minutes after seeing the event.

Law enforcement interviewers try to avoid leading questions but can inadvertently put one in without intending to. Plus, with a case like this where just about everyone in the area is no doubt talking about it, there's a high risk of people accidentally muddling each other's memories.

None of this has anything to do with lying or dishonest; it's just how the brain works. Despite the popular myth that we remember everything we've seen and the only problem is accessing the memories, the truth is that what we remember is not at all like a video tape. It keeps changing in the mind and we are not able to detect the changes ourselves.

So, for example, did Mr and Mrs C actually see Elizabeth frequently? If they did, it means that Heather Collins and Wylma Cook were mistaken. And even if Mr and Mrs C did see Elizabeth frequently, did Mr C actually see her on 13 July?

I think without corroborating forensic evidence, it's too difficult to evaluate any of the eye witness testimony.

I was an eye witness to a tragic, fatal car accident several years ago. And I saw it clearly, almost like it was in slow motion, because I saw it was about to happen, right before the major impact of the 2 cars. It was horrible.

I stayed and waited for the EMTs and the cops and made a statement for the police report. And I was present for two depositions, one for each side.

At the trial, when called to the stand, I was 100% certain, absolutely positive about every detail I testified to. Then I saw a video from a traffic cam, which showed that part of my testimony was not accurate. I was shocked. I remembered what " I saw' so clearly. But the camera proved I was mistaken about a few of the things i said. I never lied, and I never enhanced or exaggerated at all. I thought I was being absolutely correct in every detail. But my mind must have played tricks on me. :what:

 

[GrainneDhu]

This is very true! It has to be hard to get up on the stand in a courtroom and suffer through a defense attorney badgering a victim, trying to put the blame on them instead of the perpetrator, and anyone who can do it and not fall apart is a hero in my eyes! Elizabeth Smart had the support of her parents and her siblings and many, many other people, but still it had to be horrifying for her just to tell the story. I admire her so much, for what she's doing now!

Even before a case goes to court, many victims feel ashamed.

Shame is the commonest reason victims don't tell. Especially with child victims, the victim often believes that they brought the attack onto themselves by doing something or simply by being who they are.

Child victims who are the victims of someone well known to them are often told things along the lines of "I can't help myself, you're forcing me to do this." That leaves the victim in a terrible place because they don't really understand what it is they did, so they can't avoid doing it.

That is also why it doesn't occur to many child victims that there could be other victims.

 

[MotherOcean]

MOO

I don't think she misspoke.

I don't think so either, but it has been speculated here that she was talking about Mr. TG. It's hard to imagine that someone with her training and expertise would not get it right.