IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[RNER]

SBM from ThreeCrazyKids' original post - TCK in black, my response in purple

"What if...at some point, maybe even earlier in the week, maybe the day before, they met someone who had been fishing at the lake. Maybe they'd been going to the lake multiple times just in that week and had seen this same person."

I agree that maybe the day before the girls had gone to Meyers lake. Previously, I was under the impression that Misty had just started working and she had been taking Lyric to the lake that was a good swimmng area (George Wyeth?). Perhaps weeks earlier the girls or maybe even Elizabeth had met someone and was told come by anytime and "I'll give you a ride in my boat." Elizabeth wanted to share this with Lyric and told Lyric about someone wanting to give them a boat ride. Just the sort of thing two cousins/besties would not want to do without the other, but not necessarily tell an adult because they knew the adult would say NO (and appropriately so - Red flag - stranger danger). The girls being familiar with this person or thinking they were familiar with the person because of previous contact would not necessarily see this person as a threat or dangers.

"We know that LE was looking for someone who was paddle boating (also stating they were NOT considered a suspect) and LE was looking for this person to come forward with ANY information (which they did) about possibly seeing anything."

I remember seeing in the news pic an old green paddle boat at one time. It looked to not be in working order. Sort of sunk in the mud, maybe after the lake had drained. We also saw a bright yellow paddle boat that showed up in one of otto's fabulous overhead picture of Meyer's lake. Also, did someone come forward about a missing paddle boat - they thought it was stolen, but then returned? My memory is fuzzy on the paddle boat, but has always stood out as "odd." Who saw the paddle boater and told LE? How did LE know there was a paddle boater? The paddle boater did not come forward until requested to do so by LE. Was there an actual paddle boater or was LE just looking for the owner of the green paddle boat that looked to be abandoned?

Agree with the possibility of some sort of watercraft being involved...

Just my personal opinion (so need to hash this out)...I feel the lake was drained because someone reported seeing the girls IN THE LAKE. Maybe a "witness" reported seeing something suspicious or some sort of struggle at the water's edge or in the lake, and this led to draining the lake. The extensive focus of the family to "search the lake" above all other places within the first few hours also indicates to me that there was someone or something known to the family that caused the girl's to go to the lake, not just the day of the disappearance, but on previous occasions.

There have been good discussions previously about why LE would drain the lake without strong probability of them being in it, but FOR ME, it doesn't make sense unless there was a strong indication that they or evidence were in it!

 

[threecrazykids]

SBM from ThreeCrazyKids' original post - TCK in black, my response in purple

"What if...at some point, maybe even earlier in the week, maybe the day before, they met someone who had been fishing at the lake. Maybe they'd been going to the lake multiple times just in that week and had seen this same person."

I agree that maybe the day before the girls had gone to Meyers lake. Previously, I was under the impression that Misty had just started working and she had been taking Lyric to the lake that was a good swimmng area (George Wyeth?). Perhaps weeks earlier the girls or maybe even Elizabeth had met someone and was told come by anytime and "I'll give you a ride in my boat." Elizabeth wanted to share this with Lyric and told Lyric about someone wanting to give them a boat ride. Just the sort of thing two cousins/besties would not want to do without the other, but not necessarily tell an adult because they knew the adult would say NO (and appropriately so - Red flag - stranger danger). The girls being familiar with this person or thinking they were familiar with the person because of previous contact would not necessarily see this person as a threat or dangers.

"We know that LE was looking for someone who was paddle boating (also stating they were NOT considered a suspect) and LE was looking for this person to come forward with ANY information (which they did) about possibly seeing anything."

I remember seeing in the news pic an old green paddle boat at one time. It looked to not be in working order. Sort of sunk in the mud, maybe after the lake had drained. We also saw a bright yellow paddle boat that showed up in one of otto's fabulous overhead picture of Meyer's lake. Also, did someone come forward about a missing paddle boat - they thought it was stolen, but then returned? My memory is fuzzy on the paddle boat, but has always stood out as "odd." Who saw the paddle boater and told LE? How did LE know there was a paddle boater? The paddle boater did not come forward until requested to do so by LE. Was there an actual paddle boater or was LE just looking for the owner of the green paddle boat that looked to be abandoned?

Very good questions. I know we all pretty much dismiss the whole boat theory, but I am wondering if there is more to it than we've explored. The scent trail (as reported) stopped at the water. Whether that is just what LE reported, or whether there is more to the dog's tracking, is yet to be determined.

If their report of a scent trail stopping at the water's edge is true (and the scent trail didn't go on from there), there almost has to be a boat involved. A dog would be able to track from the water back to the trail and onto Maiden Lane if that is where we'd assume they were taken.

It makes a whole lot more sense to park over on Maiden Lane than it does to try to abduct 2 girls via a boat. However, maybe the girls knew this person so they had no fear whatsoever of getting into a boat or going for a ride to get ice cream etc.

I know the lake isn't big, but I just think of the possibilities that could have taken place right in front of people's faces and no one would suspect anything. Even if he did have a boat, if the girls hopped in the boat and he took them to the parking lot, the people fishing on the lake wouldn't know anything was amiss. Or even if they parked on Maiden Lane and came in the back way and took the girls, unless they were screaming and fighting no one would probably pay attention either.

With all the vegetation and overgrowth, it's possible that no one saw anything that happened on the trail even if they were fairly close. It's a matter of being able to note or remember something identifiable about the perp to be able to assist with locating this person.

 

[Bootsctr]

SBM from ThreeCrazyKids' original post - TCK in black, my response in purple

"If the scent trail did go out into the water, would the dogs have somehow been able to notify their handlers of it?

The truck (or even a CAR can pull a john boat) would be in the parking lot...people could have seen the girls in the area of the parking lot, maybe didn't even pay attention to any vehicles there, etc.

However, one would think that any vehicle that was caught on CCTV that day pulling a boat would have immediately been a red flag to LE. Then I thought maybe they LEFT the boat in the parking lot and just took off with the girls...but that would ALSO be a red flag too...

I don't know, I'm just trying to think of how a boat COULD be involved somehow (since the scent trail stopped at the water's edge)."

You took the questions right out of my mouth TCK. . . I wish we could get some answers. I definitely believe a boat could have been involved. It would not have been out of the ordinary to see a boat at Meyer's Lake. Again, how did the girls leave Meyers Lake? ? ?

 

[Aymstriss]

I don't think the original intent of the abduction was murder, but unplanned or unforseen consequences obviously resulted in the girls being dead!

Just my opinion!

I completely agree!

 

[chelsea6]

I'm on the edge of my seat reading these responses...thank you all!!

 

[tlcya]

After all this time, armed with what little facts we have to go on , what do you all feel that the killer has as far as characteristics to look out for?

I think this person has a criminal history of petty crimes but probably not sex offenses. I think the perp is mid to late 20s. Grew up in the general area of Waterloo, E'Dale and Readyln. I feel he is sporadically employed but has trouble keeping a job for long. I think he has done jail time at least once, for a short stint, possibly while still a juvenile.

I feel he dates younger, probably just barely legal teens. I think he finds them easier to impress and has serious self esteem issues and therefore trolls those younger than himself.

I feel at least one of his family members half suspects but does not want to look at it any closer because it would mean dealing with it.

I think he gained control of one cousin and used her to get compliance with the other.

He is a braggart, often telling stories which make him appear smarter, cooler or as if he owns items that he doesn't really. He has friends but they sort of joke about him behind his back.

MOO

 

[hlegate]

Bringing this post by ThreeCrazyKids forward from last thread because I definitely have wondered about the "paddle boat connection" too.

Ok...just throwing out a completely different theory here, given some other info that was thrown in the mix earlier in the investigation, and things I noticed:

What if...at some point, maybe even earlier in the week, maybe the day before, they met someone who had been fishing at the lake. Maybe they'd been going to the lake multiple times just in that week and had seen this same person.

We know that LE was looking for someone who was paddle boating (also stating they were NOT considered a suspect) and LE was looking for this person to come forward with ANY information (which they did) about possibly seeing anything.


We also know that the dogs scent went from the trail to the water's edge...and from what I've read, appeared to stop there.

What IF: the girls DID get into a boat with this person...even a John boat with just a little trolling motor that would QUIETLY take the girls from the edge of the water over to the parking lot and into their vehicle. Maybe he pretended that the motor was having issues, etc. and that he couldn't take them back to their bikes via the boat.

The scent trail wouldn't have followed them after the water, the bikes would remain at the gate, and Maybe he told them he'd give them a ride back around to the grassy area to their bikes and never did. He'd have them both in the vehicle, probably not fighting or anything, thinking everything was fine until it was too late.

I am of the fear that even though these girls may have known something was wrong that they were completely TERRIFIED at what was happening and knew they couldn't fight off an adult.

A john boat could EASILY hold all 3 of them, even 4 easily...we fish with my entire family in a john boat and there are 5 of us...3 being kids.

We also know during the first couple of days they had completely dismantled the dock right there at the parking lot. Maybe there WAS info that we aren't aware of, that someone WAS fishing in a boat on the lake that day.

I don't know...I'm just trying to figure out how the scent trail could have stopped at the water (if that is REALLY the case, since we aren't handlers) and the perp could possibly get them out of the park without a scent trail to follow.

If the scent trail did go out into the water, would the dogs have somehow been able to notify their handlers of it?

The truck (or even a CAR can pull a john boat) would be in the parking lot...people could have seen the girls in the area of the parking lot, maybe didn't even pay attention to any vehicles there, etc.

However, one would think that any vehicle that was caught on CCTV that day pulling a boat would have immediately been a red flag to LE. Then I thought maybe they LEFT the boat in the parking lot and just took off with the girls...but that would ALSO be a red flag too...

I don't know, I'm just trying to think of how a boat COULD be involved somehow (since the scent trail stopped at the water's edge).



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Last edited by threecrazykids; 03-02-2013 at 08:26 PM.

I think this was an excellent theory!!! It kind of just makes the rest of the theories/opinions on what happened make sense. It WAS weird that the scent stopped. it WAS weird that their bikes were left on the one side. Very, very good theory!!

 

[hlegate]

This person that took them and killed them does have me scratching my head. they hung out together all the time didnt they? so was this someone who wanted both of them (if someone was watching)? or was this someone they happened upon, say at the lake, and this person just ended up having both girls? It makes me sad to think that the perp may have tried to take one of the girls but the other one didnt want to leave her?

Definitely male, 30s-40s. I just cant decide whether this was someone that watched them or someone they happened upon while riding their bikes and even so, had they happened upon this person on their bikes other times but hadnt thought anything of it?

 

[tlcya]

To add to my "profile" of perp. I do not think he is an experienced or avid hunter or outdoorsman. I think he is familiar with local party spots of old. I think Maiden Lane and 7 bridges have personal significance to him. I think he attended keggers at one or both of the locations when a teen. I think as a youth he spent time at 7 bridges, possible 4 wheeling or mudding in the vicinity of the wildlife area.

I think he is of average build. I see him as someone who needs to "puff" himself up to others, hence the bragging. He has a vehicle or access to someone else's. I think he moves around a lot within the general vicinity, never at one address for long. Whether that is because of his inability to keep employment I don't know. I think he is sometimes sharing living quarters with others (roommates maybe) and sometimes on friends or relatives couches when he is between places. There is family land somewhere in the vicinity and he has access to it because he knows the schedule of residents.

There is some sort of issue with him and family. He is like the headache that won't go away. He is tolerated but considered a PITA by family members.

All MOO

 

[RNER]

This person that took them and killed them does have me scratching my head. they hung out together all the time didnt they? so was this someone who wanted both of them (if someone was watching)? or was this someone they happened upon, say at the lake, and this person just ended up having both girls? It makes me sad to think that the perp may have tried to take one of the girls but the other one didnt want to leave her?

Definitely male, 30s-40s. I just cant decide whether this was someone that watched them or someone they happened upon while riding their bikes and even so, had they happened upon this person on their bikes other times but hadnt thought anything of it?

Maybe a local can answer here...
Is Meyers Lake the kind of lake that would attract people from out of town or is it more "a local" fishing, recreational spot?

My family is avid fishers and hunters, and (please correct me if I am wrong), Meyers Lake and 7 bridges areas appear to be "local" fishing, hiking, hunting spots. In other words, they don't appear to be the kind of areas that would attract me to take my boat, fishing equipment, hunting/hiking gear, or bikes, etc from afar, especially when there or more larger and popular Lakes, Rivers and public recreational areas nearby.

Both places scream "local" or planned to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[alliemay]

What year was it that 7 bridges was no longer popular, I know Otto had posted something about a bridge being washed out, and after that the park was not used much, can't find that post now.

 

[RNER]

To add to my "profile" of perp. I do not think he is an experienced or avid hunter or outdoorsman. I think he is familiar with local party spots of old. I think Maiden Lane and 7 bridges have personal significance to him. I think he attended keggers at one or both of the locations when a teen. I think as a youth he spent time at 7 bridges, possible 4 wheeling or mudding in the vicinity of the wildlife area.

I think he is of average build. I see him as someone who needs to "puff" himself up to others, hence the bragging. He has a vehicle or access to someone else's. I think he moves around a lot within the general vicinity, never at one address for long. Whether that is because of his inability to keep employment I don't know. I think he is sometimes sharing living quarters with others (roommates maybe) and sometimes on friends or relatives couches when he is between places. There is family land somewhere in the vicinity and he has access to it because he knows the schedule of residents.

There is some sort of issue with him and family. He is like the headache that won't go away. He is tolerated but considered a PITA by family members.

All MOO

Wow...I know people like this! LOL

 

[tlcya]

I think it was 96 skeet. I will look.

 

[threecrazykids]

Maybe a local can answer here...
Is Meyers Lake the kind of lake that would attract people from out of town or is it more "a local" fishing, recreational spot?

My family is avid fishers and hunters, and (please correct me if I am wrong), Meyers Lake and 7 bridges areas appear to be "local" fishing, hiking, hunting spots. In other words, they don't appear to be the kind of areas that would attract me to take my boat, fishing equipment, hunting/hiking gear, or bikes, etc from afar, especially when there or more larger and popular Lakes, Rivers and public recreational areas nearby.

Both places scream "local" or planned to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are avid fishers as well and my husband calls Meyer's Lake a "pretty lake" (we're somewhat local and have driven by the lake tons of times). It's really more to increase the appeal of the surrounding properties, than being a functional fishing lake. Sure, there are fish in there, but my husband calls it more of a learning pond. It's technically a lake, but not sized at what most would consider a true lake. Definitely not a place someone would TYPICALLY take a boat. However, to get to the deeper spots where you'd want to fish in the dead of summer you'd probably need a boat if you were trying to catch anything sizable.

7 Bridges screams local. I've mentioned before that my husband grew up in that area and said that it's not a place someone would ever just stumble across. Even with Google Earth and such, you'd still have to know exactly where you were going to find it. He fished there when he was young, with his dad and said it's definitely a place that pretty much only locals know about. Whether it was a place where kids partied, fished, canoed, etc. it definitely screams local knowledge.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I can't really get a feel for the perp, there are a few people who make me suspicious based on various things they have said and done.

So here are two theories that make sense to me right now.

1. Motive is jealousy and spite. Girls were killed to cause pain to their parents.

2. This was my initial theory and the one I keep coming back to because there is so much that can't be explained to dismiss it. Male, 50s, likely has relationship issues, probably has been inappropriate with girls he has encountered but people just think he is odd. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd molested his daughters and granddaughters. He is very confident, probably contacts LE inquiring about the case and can't help but read about it on message boards and forums. Has a job that allows him to be off the grid during the day, unlike an office job or warehouse job where you whereabouts can be determined during the day. I think he probably revisits the scenes to relive his crimes.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Maybe a local can answer here...
Is Meyers Lake the kind of lake that would attract people from out of town or is it more "a local" fishing, recreational spot?

My family is avid fishers and hunters, and (please correct me if I am wrong), Meyers Lake and 7 bridges areas appear to be "local" fishing, hiking, hunting spots. In other words, they don't appear to be the kind of areas that would attract me to take my boat, fishing equipment, hunting/hiking gear, or bikes, etc from afar, especially when there or more larger and popular Lakes, Rivers and public recreational areas nearby.

Both places scream "local" or planned to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not a local, but I recall this being discussed a while back and the general consensus was that Meyers Lake was just a local recreational area, not any kind of tourist attraction or fishing destination.

I think the perp is local, or someone who once lived in the area and is comfortable with both Meyers Lake and 7 Bridges. JMO

 

[tlcya]

carp. I just had a link yesterday when I posted that I didn't want to get into the private or public land debate. It was a MSM article that described the area the girls was found as being on public lands that were 7 bridges wildlife area and hadn't been maintained in recent years.

acck. now I can't find it. will keep looking for that or otto's post w link to when park stopped being maintained.

 

[cindersoot]

I feel that the bike trail, bikes were the main focus on July 13th, not boating or fishing. In the very beginning I thought they had gotten into a boat, a paddle boat, but after visiting the lake myself that theory went way out the window. The reason is because of the houses on the lake have such a clear view and it just makes more sense to me that maiden lane was used because of it's seclusion. When you are standing at the parking lot looking towards the area the bikes were found, it is very hard to make out a bike or person there.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I think the perp is someone known by the family, maybe not close friends but in the same circle of friends. The perp could be someone from church, or an acquaintance of a family member, or a neighbor - someone who would appear non-threatening to most people, and someone the girls wouldn't consider a dangerous stranger.

I also feel there is someone who has suspicions about this person, but is afraid/unwilling to follow up on those suspicions. Perhaps he/she provided the perp a vehicle on July 13th, or gave a friend an alibi for a certain time period. There is something IMO that keeps this person from coming forward with info.

I'm still not 100% certain of the motive - I tend to think if there was a sexual component, it was a secondary motive. JMO

 

[tlcya]

I cannot find the info on when the bridge went out but IIRC it was in the late 90s and then shortly thereafter the county stopped maintaining the area.

It continued to be used by locals and those "in the know" about it for hiking, hunting, fishing and mushroom hunting